ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v03.n365

Internet Message Format | 2001-04-02 | 22KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #365
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest        Tuesday, April 3 2001        Volume 03 : Number 365



In this issue:
-
       Catalogue Number for "The Gift"
       Fennesz and St. Germwarfare
       Re: Catalogue Number for "The Gift"
       V/VM
       Re: No wave
       Re: More Knit unravelling?
       Re: More Knit unravelling?
       Re: More Knit unravelling?
       Re: lightning bolt
       RE: More Knit unravelling?
       Sorry, wrong message
       RE: lightning bolt
       RE: lightning bolt
       Re: lightning bolt
       Re: More Knit unravelling?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 20:04:42 +0930
From: "sinkas" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Catalogue Number for "The Gift"

Hi all can someone tell me the cat number for this disc, as I want to =
"Indent order it", and its not on the books,


Case
"Alma Matters"


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:05:17 +0200
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fennesz and St. Germwarfare

> has anyone else noticed the similarity in the cover
> design between _hotel paral.lel_ and the latest by
> aforementioned band?

Affirmative -- I even mentioned it to the guys at Mego, and they kind of
shrugged and said, "Yeah, [graphic artist] Tina [Frank]'s work gets ripped
off all over the place, so what else is new."

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 13:19:44 +0200
From: Jeroen de Boer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Catalogue Number for "The Gift"

> Hi all can someone tell me the cat number for this disc, as I want to "Indent
> order it", and its not on the books,
>
>
> Case
> "Alma Matters"
>
>
> -
>
>
Hi,

Just bought it: catalognumber TZ 7332


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeroen de Boer
content director Cyberslag Content Providing
Damsterdiep 15  9711SG Groningen    The Netherlands

t   [phone]
m   [phone]
f   [phone]
[e-mail]

www.cyberslag.com
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:06:43 +0100
From: "Richard Gardner" <[e-mail]>
Subject: V/VM

I think I may regret this but following Andy Marks link to Bentcrayon I came
across a downloadable live mp3 of V/VM. I see that they have released lots
on singles but I have no idea what are they are like. They may have no
relevance on the ZornList at all but with links to the Aphex Twin among
others there must be something going on. If anyone can enlighten me, many
thanx.

Richard Gardner


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:33:30 +0200
From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: No wave

>From: [e-mail]
>
>Don't think one of my favorites was mentioned- James White & The Blacks/The
>Contortions.  15 years ago, I used to have people calling up the radio
>station and begging me not to play any more of their music.  Did I listen?
>;-)

I┤ve seen the Contortions with Luther Thomas 4 years ago at the Moers
festival and it was fantastic. I hadn┤t heard of Mr. White/Black for many
years before - same with Luther Thomas who had another interesting No Wave
band at the beginning of the eighties: DIZZAZZ.
At the time he was brought in a red coffin on stage...

Another Nowaver was/is? Rhys Chatham. He has done a performance with 100(!)
electric guitarists and 5 subconductors which he conducted in Berlin.

Andreas

np: J.A.DEANE - These Times (zerx)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 09:47:12 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: More Knit unravelling?

In a message dated 4/3/01 1:14:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>  It needs new ownership:  perhaps a coalition of
>  musicians with a bit of NEA financing or some such
>  network.  It's enough of an institution now to merit
>  something less private sector.

Interesting idea, but maybe a little dicey, because of the accountability
issues it could raise.  Given the recent notorious episodes of conservative
outrage over the way public arts monies have been spent, the mind boggles at
how some Congessional committee or Mayoral commission might react to the
concept of Your Tax Dollars funding some of the skronkier acts at the Knit!

Then, too, even if the balance of control over public allocations is tipped
towards the artists, you've got other dangers to watch out for, like maybe a
downtown version of the Jazz at Lincoln Center situation emerging - a czar or
politboro imposing his/its own ideological definition of what is a "What Is
Jazz?" artist.  Actually, as documented in Kevin Whitehead's book (New Dutch
Swing), such matters did become controversial in the Netherlands when public
funds started flowing to avant garde venues and institutions in the '70s, and
the musicians themselves were deciding who was and wasn't avant garde.

None of this is to say that having some club owner (corporately sponsored or
not) decide is inherently better, or that there aren't plenty of examples of
institutions successfully showcasing "our" music with public support.  (I'm
guessing that the Canadian fests might fall into this category.)  But having
seen a bit from the government side how down and dirty the competition gets
when cultural institutions substantially depend on public support, I thought
a little beware-of-what-you-wish-for might be in order here.

Still, in a just world I'd love to see a chunk of the change going to JALC
diverted to the Knit!

David

np:  Philippe Micol, New York Interviews  -->
       Rene Lussier & NOW Orchestra, Le tour de bloc

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 14:18:29 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Knit unravelling?

>From: [e-mail]

>Then, too, even if the balance of control over public allocations is tipped
>towards the artists, you've got other dangers to watch out for, like maybe
>a
>downtown version of the Jazz at Lincoln Center situation emerging - a czar
>or
>politboro imposing his/its own ideological definition of what is a "What Is
>Jazz?" artist.

Absolutely.  This will always be a risk with any non-corporate
alternative--it's the same thing that's been happening at Pacifica of late.
A committee of overseers unbeholden to the contributors to the network or
the employees.  Not good.  At least Dorf has to make some concessions
because of his pocketbook, empty though it may be.  For myself (and of
course this is all useless speculation since the Knit is not for sale), I'd
vote for a coalition of musicians to buy the place, with some additional
sponsorship from the Zorn list if possible.  Then, I'd hire Steve Smith to
manage the place.

>Given the recent notorious episodes of conservative
>outrage over the way public arts monies have been spent, the mind boggles
>at
>how some Congessional committee or Mayoral commission might react to the
>concept of Your Tax Dollars funding some of the skronkier acts at the Knit!

Yep.  In times of fair weather, find a good scapegoat in the arts to send
off into the woods with the sins of the polis inscribed in its hide.
Meanwhile, what happens with the appropriation of most tax money is far more
obscene.

>But having
>seen a bit from the government side how down and dirty the competition gets
>when cultural institutions substantially depend on public support, I
>thought
>a little beware-of-what-you-wish-for might be in order here.

Or like a bunch of academics fighting like a pack of hyenas over a regents'
appropriation.  Which brings us to the old saw about why academic politics
is so vicious.  Because there's nothing at stake.

You're completely right in your caution.  I'm simply worried that NY's
favorite megalomaniac is going run his (and everyone else's) club into the
ground.  At some point community interest has to trump bad management.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:25:16 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: More Knit unravelling?

In a message dated 4/3/01 10:19:24 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< NY's favorite megalomaniac >>

actually, I think this would be Giuliani.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 07:44:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Grey ElkGel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: lightning bolt

- - lighning bolt as metal or no-wave or ruins

have they themselves ever claimed to be a metal band?
seems unlikely that they would have, at least without
being a little bit tongue-in-cheek.
as per no-wave, i'm sure they've heard it, and there
are some surface similarities (they're noisy), but in
general they're pretty much just a rock band; the
drums play in time (the beat isn't being deconstructed
at all), the bass plays riffs, etc.
as far as the ruins, the instrumentation is the same
and there are the technical fireworks, but lightning
bolt doesn't have many of the prog-rockisms that make
the ruins what they are.
but sure... there are similarities w/ all of these
things.

> BUT, as long as that music is being embraced
> by "hipsters" or played on college radio stations,
> you can be almost fully assured that it isn't
> really "metal" because that is still too big of a
> culture gap ... They might like to call it metal,
> but the whole aesthetics are different.

i try to avoid blaming bands for the people who listen
to them. i agree that there is a current wave of
"metal for people who don't like metal", but i don't
believe that the music is defined by the listener, so
if it's "real" metal, it's "real" metal whether or not
the listener is a sarcastic wanker or an actual
"headbanger".

> the way they (or their audiences/record labels)
> sometimes patronize themselves by referring
> to it as metal

again, i wouldn't count lightning bolt among them.

> when they wouldn't actually go to a dingy metal club
> and watch musically more advanced/interesting (and
> yet societally more "low-class"/less arty) bands
> such as Gorguts or Soilent Green or Nile is
> kind of lame.

well, i'm going to see lightning bolt on thursday,
electric wizard and warhorse on sunday, then the metal
fest w/ gorguts, meshuggah, etc. the following week,
and i *certainly* won't feel more authentic by going
to one or the other of these shows.

> Besides, sometimes I like the wanky guitar solos -
> the more ridiculous, the better!

i agree there.

.greg.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:56:33 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: More Knit unravelling?

Wooo!  You think *Dorf* has trouble with managing money... ;-)  I'd most
likely sink the ship with the best of intentions.  I can't even balance my
checkbook.

Now, booking such a club would be a different story.  But there, too, the
model in place at the Knit has always worked.  It's responsible for the
diversity of bookings, to be sure.  One thing that most people don't know is
that Dorf these days is responsible for little of the actual booking of the
club.  Sure, he has a supervisory role (and ultimately signs the checks, for
what that's worth), but he's not really all that engaged in day-to-day
activities of that nature - he's out chasing investors and following
pipedreams and formulating strategic partnerships.  His biggest dream is to
find a way to make online presentation a marketable and remunerable
commodity.

I can't speak for the old Knit, but in my own experience the actual booking
has generally been done by low-lying scrubs.  When I was there, the guy
booking the club was a younger rock-oriented guy who was willing and eager
to learn jazz and other musics.  (He's also the drummer for the bands Oneida
and Mishagas.)  In effect, what evolved was a loose process of booking by
committee; it was 80% his doing, but he had lots of input from the rest of
the team.  This is how I was able to get him to book the duo of Han Bennink
and Ellery Eskelin for the first time ever.  If there's one thing of which
I'm proudest in my entire tenure, it was that.  (Still, I can't take sole
credit - it was based on a passing suggestion from John Corbett.)

Dorf's input to booking was usually the bigger acts, and often the ones that
might seem least involved in the aesthetic we generally assocaite with the
Knit.  His favorite act in the '97 festival, for instance, was the Zawinul
Syndicate, and he was single-handedly responsible for bringing in the likes
of Lou Reed and Richie Havens.  (Spiritually, for those who don't know, Dorf
fancies himself a hippie entrepreneur, along the lines of Steve Jobs or Ben
and Jerry.)  Certain savvy indie promoters brought still other acts to the
table, including the much-vaunted Silver Apples reunion, while record labels
would often try to cash in on the club's grungy chic by pushing in such
unlikely souls as the Emmanuel Ax/Pablo Ziegler 'Los Tangueros' duo project.
(That show would have done better elsewhere, but boy did Manny get off on
"slumming"...)

The reason it all worked, and continues to work, is that Dorf may have final
say in theory, but in practice he's been willing to hire bookers and let
them work largely unhindered.  These bookers, as well as the rest of the
staff's contributions, have kept the club's ear closer to street level,
assuring that there's a constant flow of music that Dorf himself had no
knowledge of.  Hell, none of us working there could even claim familiarity
with ALL of the music we presented.

I still think the Knit is better off uner single ownership, and preferably a
sort of daring hands-off owner, for the reasons that have been mentioned.  A
coalition of artists will most likely end up engaged in the kind of
internecine squabbling that David refers to in the Dutch example.  And a
small cabal of experts will indeed result in the kind of three-faced but
single-voiced oligarchy in place at J@LC (the trilateral commission of
Wynton, Crouch and Albert Murray, who all think with Murray's brain alone).

Besides, ideally artists should be left free to pursue their art, without
being beholden to the ownership of a business and the perils attached to
that.  The Tonic booking policy with its guest curators is a fine model that
has resulted in some inspired bookings, but in general I'd prefer to keep
the process in the hands of others with a broader overview of the entire
scene, not just a niche.  Hopefully that doesn't sound too rash...

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:27:05 +0200 (CEST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?efr=E9n=20del=20valle?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sorry, wrong message

Sorry everyone.
I sent an e-mail entitled "Garrison: ALS en directo".
It was for a Spanish-speaking jazz-list and sent it
here by mistake.

Regards,
efrΘn

_______________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Envφa mensajes instantßneos y recibe alertas de correo con
Yahoo! Messenger - http://messenger.yahoo.es

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:35:05 -0400
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: lightning bolt

HOLY SHIT!!!  Where's this happening?  It's not the metal fest in Asbury
Park, is it?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(who's been waiting years to hear Meshuggah, and has now added Gorguts to
the wish list thanks to William York...)

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Grey ElkGel
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:45 AM

then the metal
fest w/ gorguts, meshuggah, etc. the following week


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:57:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Grey ElkGel <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: lightning bolt

> HOLY SHIT!!!  Where's this happening?  It's not the
> metal fest in Asbury Park, is it?

it's at the mass metal and hardcore fest, april 13th
and 14th at the palladium in worcester, ma. both
meshuggah [apparently their only u.s. appearance for
this trip] and gorguts are playing on the 14th.

> Steve Smith
> [e-mail]
> (who's been waiting years to hear Meshuggah, and has
> now added Gorguts to
> the wish list thanks to William York...)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf
> Of Grey ElkGel
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 10:45 AM
>
> then the metal
> fest w/ gorguts, meshuggah, etc. the following week
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 08:39:27 -0700
From: big ums <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: lightning bolt

Scott Handley <[e-mail]> writes:
> Not to fetishize some questionably-existant movement,
> but who are these new no-wave bands?

I would venture that a lot of the Skin-Graft, Bulb, & Load titles would
be considered "No Wave" or "Now Wave."

Artists like US Maple, Temple Of Bon Matin (even though they say they are
"metal"), Thee Hydrogen Terrors, Mr Quintron, Arab On Radar, Melt Banana,
Lightning Bolt, !!!, John Van Ryan, Gerty Farish, Men's Recovery Project,
Medicine Ball, or Mother Jefferson... I could go on and on.
Stylistically, they are very different, some taking on a funky groove,
and others mining whatever's left from the "rock" vein, but all have a
common thread linking them together.  Could be the unrehearsed, loose
feel.  I try not to over analyze.  The magic would be lost.

There are possibly hundreds of other bands that could, and would, be
lumped into this category, but I'm not going to be the lumper today.

ChuckP.






________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 09:56:32 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: More Knit unravelling?

On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:56:33 -0400  "Steve Smith" wrote:
>
> Besides, ideally artists should be left free to pursue their art, without
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And they are.

The problem starts when you want your art to touch more than your mother,
girl/boyfriend, and close friends. We live in a free country where anybody
can do what they want in their bedroom or basement. It was never written
that claiming to be an artist would automatically create instant fame
or wealth.

Internet might be close to perfection from this point of view since in the
near future we can imagine every artist with his own web site with MP3 and
other material available there.

The downside of that might also be total irrelevance since the pure
volume of information will almost defeat the purpose. Not very different
to the current situation where there are zillions of labels each covering
a micro-niche (look at the trend of CD-R only labels, where it is a
challenge to find 100 customers worldwide).

> being beholden to the ownership of a business and the perils attached to
> that.  The Tonic booking policy with its guest curators is a fine model that
> has resulted in some inspired bookings, but in general I'd prefer to keep
> the process in the hands of others with a broader overview of the entire
> scene, not just a niche.  Hopefully that doesn't sound too rash...

This last point is interesting since looking at Zorn for the past years I
can't stop thinking about the following trend:

    1/ label owners are mainly crooks or clueless, then I will take care
       of my own label business (Tzadik)
    2/ club owners are mainly crooks or clueless, then I will take care
       of my own club booking (Tonic)
    3/ writers/critics are clueless, then... no interviews or comments

what's next?

    4/ fans are stupid or clueless, then I will create a Zorn membership
       card to select who can listen to my music or buy my records?

I am of course exagerating, but am I the only person puzzled with that?
This is specially funny because this trend really started when Zorn's
music became less and less controversial, and the man more and more
covered with what are clear signs of honor and respect.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #365
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]