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2001-03-13
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #336
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, March 13 2001 Volume 03 : Number 336
In this issue:
-
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Religion/Music (not really)
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Religion/Music
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Charged
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Religion/Music
RE: Zorn List Digest V3 #335 (absolutely no Zorn content)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:42:46 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:18:30PM -0500, DvdBelkin@aol.com wrote:
> Just as the absence of ironclad commandments to
> NEVER ASCRIBE GREATER HUMANITY TO YOUR CORELIGIONISTS is the rule, not the
> exception, in organized religions.
It depends on the religions. A relevant Jewish myth: when the waters of
the Red Sea closed after the Exodus, drowning the Egyptians, the angels
cheered. God silenced them, reminding them that the Egyptians were his
children too.
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:52:54 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
on 3/13/01 6:56 PM, Brian Olewnick at olewnick@gis.net wrote:
> Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>
>> Oh, BTW, prove to me that God--or whatever you want to call a higher
>> spiritual power--does not exist. Atheism is based as much on faith as
>> theism is.
>
> Oh c'mon, Mike. Prove to me that twelve pink elephants aren't dancing in
> the air behind me right now. I don't care if I just looked and they
> weren't there _then_; prove that they weren't there before I looked.
> Anyone making _any_ assertion (ie, there is a god), is under the
> obligation to supply a proof, not to ask someone to disprove it.
I haven't claimed that there is a God. I choose to believe in something--a
god, gods, higher power--because when I have showed faith, it has manifested
itself to me from time to time. But this is all subjective and not provable
by empirical means. It does seem clear to me that if you don't have faith,
such a belief will not work for you. And if you don't need that faith in
order to live a content, and dare I say it, moral life, then that's fine
too.
Because we sure get into a lot of trouble when we try to impose our
religious or spiritual beliefs on others.
>There's
> a god of thunder named Thor who's personally responsible for each and
> every lightning bolt (when he's not being pestered by Loki); prove that
> there isn't.
>
Can't, sorry. If it works for you, great.
- --Mike
- --
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:00:09
From: "William York" <william_york@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music (not really)
>There's a god of thunder named Thor who's personally responsible for >each
>and every lightning bolt (when he's not being pestered by Loki);
I don't doubt it. In fact, I saw Thor, king of "muscle rock," in person
about a week ago. If he could bend a steel bar with his teeth, wear fake
armor and get up and sing songs like "Rag-Na-Rock" to generic early '80s
heavy metal backing -- all with a straight face -- then he's capable of
creating lightning.
Uh, sorry to further prolong this thread, but it is at least looking at the
first picture on this web page: <http://thorkorr.com/>. I almost spit out my
food. This guy is a consummate entertainer.
WY (not on topic, but at least not talking about science and religion...)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:51:25 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
on 3/13/01 8:38 PM, Mike Chamberlain at mikec@rocler.qc.ca mewled endlessly:
> then you will have time to devote
> yourself to self-transcendence, or just go to baseball games and avant-garde
> jazz gigs, as I intend to do.
They are all one and the same.
r
----------
Sessionographies:
~~~ CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.
Discographies:
~~~ COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI,; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.
Also:
--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things
--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--The Interview--ETC.
all at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k
WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? :
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/LUCILLE/splash.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:08:55 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:38:06PM -0500, Mike Chamberlain wrote:
> Sounds reasonable to me. Self-righteousness is not the goal. When the kids
> are grown up and grandma has passed on, then you will have time to devote
> yourself to self-transcendence, or just go to baseball games and avant-garde
> jazz gigs, as I intend to do. In the meantime, I'll pray while I'm driving
> or just before I go to sleep.
No One Gets to Transcend Anything (No One Except Oil Company Executives)
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:41:11 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
on 3/13/01 8:33 PM, Mike Chamberlain at mikec@rocler.qc.ca mewled endlessly:
> on 3/13/01 8:22 PM, Joseph Zitt at jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote:
>
> The key word here is "known." We do, however, have some evidence from
> near-death experiences--if we are to believe what people say--that there is
> a different plane than this earthly one.
Fear-induced hallucinations. No one has ever come back from being brain
dead. Dead is Dead. Thus spake Fred.
> figure I might as well believe....in something.
My line for this: Howsabout that aliens built the pyramids? Or that white
folk are the devil? Or that Jews are sub-human and should be wiped from the
ace of the earth? Beliefs. Arbitrary. Baaaaaaaaaaaaad.
> Let's say that believing in some sort of
> spiritual plane works for me. And if not believing works for someone else,
> that's OK by me.
I like that. I imagine a world were beliefs are thought of differently, as
an INTERNAL tool, not to be extruded into the outer world, and NOT to be
taken so seriously that they are seen as Absolute Truth. So make it inner
poetics and it becomes safe. Tell everyone when they're chilluns that they
can build whatever inner vision they like, as long as it does no harm, and
as long as they keep firmly in mind that it has no bearing or meaning in the
outer world other than ***what they give to it***. It's a fucking game, see?
It's play. It's a picture we build to help us crawl through the days. Has
nothing to do with the humming unintelligible fabulous buzz of whatever the
hell it is we call reality. An acceptable crutch.
> But when you talk about disorganized spirituality-as distinct from
> religion--I can get behind that. And that, I think, is where music comes
> in.
Holy, holy,
RL
----------
Sessionographies:
~~~ CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.
Discographies:
~~~ COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI,; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.
Also:
--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things
--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--The Interview--ETC.
all at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k
WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? :
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/LUCILLE/splash.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:03:40 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:33:24PM -0500, Mike Chamberlain wrote:
> If there is no God, then there is no downside in not believing in God. If
> there is a God, then I presume there is a downside to not believing. I
> figure I might as well believe....in something. Maybe I'm wrong.
Well, what is missing here (and Pascal missed it too) is that it's too
simply binary as to whether God does/not exist. It misses the case that
a deity exists but is completely different from what we believe. What
if there is a God who *rewards* sinners? Those who took Pascal's wager
would be in cosiderably worse shape.
> But it's
> really up to the individual. Let's say that believing in some sort of
> spiritual plane works for me.
What do you mean by "works"? And, for that matter, by "believing"?
> And if not believing works for someone else,
> that's OK by me. I have no interest in trying to convert anyone to my own
> conception of higher power or powers, as I see organized religion as having
> been at least as destructive--and arguabaly more destructive--as
> instrumental rationality (though it often looks as though the latter has
> been making up for lost time in the last 100 years or so :-)). And the one
> thing that organized religion has succeeded at more often than not is
> separating man from God.
Hmm, a concept that rests on a simple concept of "God".
But maybe I was just corrupted by reading too much Harlan Ellison as a
kid :-)
> But when you talk about disorganized spirituality-as distinct from
> religion--I can get behind that. And that, I think, is where music comes
> in.
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:19:41 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
on 3/13/01 9:08 PM, Joseph Zitt at jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote:
>
> No One Gets to Transcend Anything (No One Except Oil Company Executives)
>
Thanks. You just saved me a whole bunch of time.
- --Mike
- --
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:16:56 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
on 3/13/01 8:41 PM, Rick Lopez at bb10k@velocity.net wrote:
> on 3/13/01 8:33 PM, Mike Chamberlain at mikec@rocler.qc.ca mewled endlessly:
>
>> on 3/13/01 8:22 PM, Joseph Zitt at jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote:
>>
>> The key word here is "known." We do, however, have some evidence from
>> near-death experiences--if we are to believe what people say--that there is
>> a different plane than this earthly one.
>
> Fear-induced hallucinations. No one has ever come back from being brain
> dead. Dead is Dead. Thus spake Fred.
The hallucinations all sound remarkably similar. And I did say *near*
death.
>
>> figure I might as well believe....in something.
>
> My line for this: Howsabout that aliens built the pyramids?
Is there not historical proof that this is not true?
> Or that white
> folk are the devil?
>Or that Jews are sub-human and should be wiped from the
> ace of the earth? Beliefs. Arbitrary. Baaaaaaaaaaaaad.
I'm not talking about beliefs that have anything to do with the physical
plane or other people, whether I call them saints or sinners. I think this
is pretty clear by now.
- --Mike (trying to keep it short this time)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:25:01 EST
From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
In a message dated 3/13/01 9:15:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jzitt@metatronpress.com writes:
> Hmm, a concept that rests on a simple concept of "God".
>
> But maybe I was just corrupted by reading too much Harlan Ellison as a
> kid :-)
Philip. K. Dick.
Valis... Eye in the Sky... Radio Free Albemuth... The Divine Invasion...
Ubiq...
Gon' go read now.
;-)avid
np: Paul Plimley, Everything in Stages
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:28:11 EST
From: Dgasque@aol.com
Subject: Re: Charged
In a message dated Tue, 13 Mar 2001 8:22:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Stinkipipi@aol.com writes:
After me...
<<
I've got this CD. Hmmm...well...I'd put it a little above some of Herb
Albert's work of late...
wow, that's harsh. there are reviews up on my site (under laswell and
bernocchi's discographies)
>>
No. I could have gotten worse, believe me.
- --
=dg=
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:50:01 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
on 3/13/01 8:51 PM, Rick Lopez at bb10k@velocity.net wrote:
> on 3/13/01 8:38 PM, Mike Chamberlain at mikec@rocler.qc.ca mewled endlessly:
>
>> then you will have time to devote
>> yourself to self-transcendence, or just go to baseball games and avant-garde
>> jazz gigs, as I intend to do.
>
> They are all one and the same.
This, my friends, is Truth.
- --Mike
- --
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:56:17 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
on 3/13/01 9:03 PM, Joseph Zitt at jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 08:33:24PM -0500, Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>
>> If there is no God, then there is no downside in not believing in God. If
>> there is a God, then I presume there is a downside to not believing. I
>> figure I might as well believe....in something. Maybe I'm wrong.
>
> Well, what is missing here (and Pascal missed it too) is that it's too
> simply binary as to whether God does/not exist. It misses the case that
> a deity exists but is completely different from what we believe. What
> if there is a God who *rewards* sinners? Those who took Pascal's wager
> would be in cosiderably worse shape.
>
There ain't no devil, there's just God when he's drunk.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:48:45 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 09:25:01PM -0500, DvdBelkin@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/13/01 9:15:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jzitt@metatronpress.com writes:
>
> > Hmm, a concept that rests on a simple concept of "God".
> >
> > But maybe I was just corrupted by reading too much Harlan Ellison as a
> > kid :-)
>
> Philip. K. Dick.
>
> Valis... Eye in the Sky... Radio Free Albemuth... The Divine Invasion...
> Ubiq...
>
> Gon' go read now.
Actually, I only got to reading PKD after college, except for a few of
his non-theological books. The Divine Invasion actually got me
interested in Judaism again after a while looking in other directions.
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:25:53 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
>>>Just curious, when a kid ask
you what a myth is, what answer
do you offer?<<<
Now this is what I would tell a kid, not an adult.
A myth is a story which
people tell to express the
mysteries of life. Some
things are so mysterious
and so hard to know and
explain that storytelling
is used to creatively
explain these things.
For an adult, I would add
that the source of these
stories is the human psyche,
and that they have significance
at the psychological level
that can be quite helpful.
Carl Jung, James Hillman, and
others have written delightful
tomes on the psychological
significance and the psychological
reality of religious motifs
and myths. It all meshes quite
entertainingly with music and
the arts. And with understanding
the complex patterns of human
emotion and behavior. Medieval
alchemy, via Jung, can be seen
as a virtual blueprint of the human
psyche. Not much good as chemistry.
But pretty damned helpful at un-
locking dreams and fantasies and
psychopathological symptoms.
But I like your image of everything
being based on sand. I believe that.
Or ashes or dust. That's where we
came from, and that's where we're
headed. And there's pretty good proof
for that. So I'm not going to spend
too much time pining the loss of $18
on Tom Waits covers. Nobody does
Waits like Waits. Hammond is way
too polished for my tastes. I like things
a bit more sandy.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 04:47:08 -0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <chatterton23@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
John Zorn: godhead or myth?
Please discuss...
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 02:02:54 -0300
From: "Gabriel Lichtmann" <la_lichuza@bancaria.net.ar>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V3 #335 (absolutely no Zorn content)
I didn't participate on this thread earlier because I was too far behind on
my reading of the digests and thought it was already over. But now that I've
updated my reading and see it's still going strong I'll throw in my thoughts
on what was said, and not on the subject per se, since I'm a faithfull
atheist (how's that for a paradox?). This whole discussion has proven how
many (and not all) of you know little about the castrophic effects techology
and religion and their advocates had on the population of third world
countries. Technocrats and mystics are the ones to blame for the mass
killings, starving, diseases, illiteracy, as well for years of
corrupt/authoritarian governements (coincidentally kept afloat by foreing
powers who knew what "worked" and what was "right") these countries have
suffered.
Fuck, sometimes I'm amazed about how ignorant educated people can be. You
want to see how technology "works" for all humanity? Get out of NY and go to
South America or Africa, where more than half of the population doesn't know
about the wonders of the internet, and couldn't care less about it when they
are still sorting out how to survive. Oh, and I'm sure that they don't care
also about the incredible progress of medicine, since it will never reach
them, and a longer life span is of no use when you don't know when you will
have your next meal. And what about religions who condemn abortion and safe
sex? Perhaps they do it to encourage the adoption black market, or because
they haven't heard about how many babies are found in garbage cans these
days.
It's great to see things from a distance, but i think you should go out more
often.
GABRIEL
P.S: I bought the "Trembling before God" sountrack (I saw the film and loved
it) and I have to say is my favourite Zorn CD in years. Jamie Saft is really
great on this one.
P.P.S.: I saw Kusturica and his No Smoking Orchestra live in Berlin last
month, and they were great. Can anyone tell me something about the album?
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #336
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