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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #334
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Tuesday, March 13 2001 Volume 03 : Number 334
In this issue:
-
Re: Science/Rationality
RE: Charged
Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #333
Re: Science/Rationality
Re: Science/Rationality
Odp: science, rationality, religion
Re[2]: Charged
Re: science, rationality, religion
RE: Charged
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: Science/Religion
Re: science, rationality, religion
science, rationality, religion
dave douglas reissue + extras/(taken from GM press release)
science, rationality, religion
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: Religion/Music
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:04:49 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Science/Rationality
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:43:10PM -0500, DvdBelkin@aol.com wrote:
> But where does the idea that Jews - or any nonbelievers - are "cancer" come
> from? I think the point being made before is that this is a quintessionally
> religious concept - or at least a concept that has been very often embraced,
> and very rarely repudiated, in religious (especially fundamentalist) thought
> and practice. As I've suggested before, look at the Albigensian crusade.
> Look at the way the Cathers were dehumanized. Look at the systematic,
> bureaucratic organization of the campaign (inclusive of the long inquisition
> that followed the military conquest of Languedoc) to isolate and exterminate
> them - a campaign that in fact DID exterminate them. Such exemples from
> premodern history (East as well as West) can be mutlipied almost ad infinitem.
Hate for others has always been around, and is justified according to
the common belief system/jargon, which has at times been based on science
and at others based on religion. Not a useful argument for or against
either.
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:25:56 -0400
From: "Neil H. Enet" <nilugo@usa.net>
Subject: RE: Charged
>Does any know much about this group? I have one of
>their live albums and i like it - is there any
>official releases?
>Gav_______________________________________
- -
Is this the Laswell, Kondo, Bernocchi group?
Neil H. Enet
- ------------
NP. Chris Isaak - Baja Sessions
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:39:27 EST
From: Brennansf@aol.com
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #333
Do we REALLY want to get into compiling a bibliography on the stupidities of
science over the past century??
jb
> No doubt that science and stupidity happen in conjonction once in a
> while. I am happy that it makes you feel better, even in the face of
> the gigantic amount of stupidity associated with non-scientific
> activities.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:57:51 -0500
From: William Messing <messing@math.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Science/Rationality
At 2:04 PM -0600 3/13/01, Joseph Zitt wrote:
>On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:43:10PM -0500, DvdBelkin@aol.com wrote:
>
>> But where does the idea that Jews - or any nonbelievers - are "cancer" come
>> from? I think the point being made before is that this is a quintessionally
>> religious concept - or at least a concept that has been very often embraced,
>> and very rarely repudiated, in religious (especially fundamentalist) thought
>> and practice. As I've suggested before, look at the Albigensian crusade.
>> Look at the way the Cathers were dehumanized. Look at the systematic,
>> bureaucratic organization of the campaign (inclusive of the long inquisition
>> that followed the military conquest of Languedoc) to isolate and exterminate
>> them - a campaign that in fact DID exterminate them. Such exemples from
>> premodern history (East as well as West) can be mutlipied almost
>>ad infinitem.
>
>Hate for others has always been around, and is justified according to
>the common belief system/jargon, which has at times been based on science
>and at others based on religion. Not a useful argument for or against
>either.
>
>--
>|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
>| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>
>
>-
To say that "Hate has always been around and is justified ...",
avoids an issue. There are particular hates, exhibited by particular
people at particular times. The "justifications" referred to
frequently appear to be dishonest and to be used in order to rally
others to one's cause. The Church supressed many who didn't accept
its strictures concerning thought or who interpreted the traditional
texts in a non-canonical manner. When individuals were burned to
death for the "crime" of translating the Bible into English, it seems
hard to reconcile such with a "commmon belief system", unless one
admits "the primacy of Rome as authority" as a "belief system" (and
that ignores entirely the obvious political and economic aspects of
Church history).
If one examines Henry Ford's Dearborn Independent articles, it seems
hard to fit them into a "belief system" other than irrational
anti-semitism. What else explains his "ask any fan and in three
words he'll tell you what is wrong with baseball today: too much
Jew." ?
William Messing
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:12:55 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Science/Rationality
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:57:51PM -0500, William Messing wrote:
> To say that "Hate has always been around and is justified ...",
> avoids an issue. There are particular hates, exhibited by particular
> people at particular times. The "justifications" referred to
> frequently appear to be dishonest and to be used in order to rally
> others to one's cause. The Church supressed many who didn't accept
> its strictures concerning thought or who interpreted the traditional
> texts in a non-canonical manner. When individuals were burned to
> death for the "crime" of translating the Bible into English, it seems
> hard to reconcile such with a "commmon belief system", unless one
> admits "the primacy of Rome as authority" as a "belief system" (and
> that ignores entirely the obvious political and economic aspects of
> Church history).
Which avoids the basic issue: It is not a matter of science vs.
religion. Hate uses whatever conceptual materials are around for its
justifications (which may or may not have anything to do with what the
person may believe to be its reasons).
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:14:36 +0100
From: "piotr kalinski" <maurycy@astercity.net>
Subject: Odp: science, rationality, religion
>There's no shortage of stupidity
>associated with EVERY activity.
>
>And there are great depths of
>wisdom associated with non-
>scientific activities.
>
>The evolution of consciousness
>does not stop at the rational level.
>
>It is just important to know and
>experience the difference between
>regression to pre-rational levels,
>which leads to most of the stupidity,
>and progression to trans-rational
>levels, which leads to wisdom.
>
>There is much stupidity associated
>with the critiques of trans-rational
>dimensions.
>
>A closed mind is stupid at all levels.
I think somebody has been reading Wilber... :)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:00:12 +0100
From: Tim Blechmann <TimBlechmann@gmx.de>
Subject: Re[2]: Charged
Yes, there is one official album:
Eraldo Bernocchi, Toshinori Kondo, Bill Laswell: Charged
PEACE
Tim mailto:TimBlechmann@gmx.de
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:00:44 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
>>>I think somebody has been reading Wilber... :)<<<
NP: Soundtrack To Mr. Ed TV Show
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:01:32 EST
From: Dgasque@aol.com
Subject: RE: Charged
I've got this CD. Hmmm...well...I'd put it a little above some of Herb Albert's work of late...
- --
=dg=
===========
In a message dated Tue, 13 Mar 2001 3:22:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Neil H. Enet" <nilugo@usa.net> writes:
<< >Does any know much about this group? I have one of
>their live albums and i like it - is there any
>official releases?
>Gav_______________________________________
- -
Is this the Laswell, Kondo, Bernocchi group?
Neil H. Enet
- ------------
NP. Chris Isaak - Baja Sessions
- -
>>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:21:03 EST
From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
In a message dated 3/13/01 1:01:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
keith@pfmentum.com writes:
> It is just important to know and
> experience the difference between
> regression to pre-rational levels,
> which leads to most of the stupidity,
> and progression to trans-rational
> levels, which leads to wisdom.
OK, but how would I know which, for example, this is? I'm not saying this as
a knock, but in my experience it's all too easy for someone to take refuge in
"trans-rationalism" to hide a multitude of sins. Knew a Swami Satchidananda
once, for example (anyone remember him? the guy who looked like Gandolf),
who undoubtedly *did* possess techniques for transcending ordinary
consciousness, and who was basically a pretty sweet guy to boot - but who
also possessed really unenlightened ideas about homosexuality and other
matters, and who it turned out was porking his secretary while he was
preaching celibacy...
So it aint enough by me to sale into the mystic; you've still got to subject
what you come back with to critical, phyrronian scrutiny. Which is why David
Hume is the rational *and* spiritual cat's meow in my book.
David
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:47:52 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Science/Religion
>From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Science/Religion
>
>My impression is that many critical theorists tend to look in the wrong
>place
>for the ultimate evidence of rationalism run amock.
>
>
>But this just repeats points already made, albeit to this point ignored.
My impression is that when confronted with a strong case for the implication
of rational thought and the Holocaust, some people would rather not look at
all. Though I don't necessarily agree with Spangler's characterization of
Bauman, I am more bothered by the fact that it's being rejected out of hand
by people who haven't even bothered reading it. This to me is the
"maximally offensive" thing, and for a book that has garnered numerous
awards since its publication in 1989.
Zymunt Bauman. Modernity and the Holocaust. Give it more than just a
cursory, dismissive glance.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:48:58 +0100
From: "piotr kalinski" <maurycy@astercity.net>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
>> It is just important to know and
>> experience the difference between
>> regression to pre-rational levels,
>> which leads to most of the stupidity,
>> and progression to trans-rational
>> levels, which leads to wisdom.
>
>OK, but how would I know which, for example, this is? I'm not saying this
as
>a knock, but in my experience it's all too easy for someone to take refuge
in
>"trans-rationalism" to hide a multitude of sins. Knew a Swami
Satchidananda
>once, for example (anyone remember him? the guy who looked like Gandolf),
>who undoubtedly *did* possess techniques for transcending ordinary
>consciousness, and who was basically a pretty sweet guy to boot - but who
>also possessed really unenlightened ideas about homosexuality and other
>matters, and who it turned out was porking his secretary while he was
>preaching celibacy...
>
>So it aint enough by me to sale into the mystic; you've still got to
subject
>what you come back with to critical, phyrronian scrutiny. Which is why
David
>Hume is the rational *and* spiritual cat's meow in my book.
>
>David
The example of Swami Satchidananda is just one of many that have in the past
been put forth
to make trans-rational teachings doubtful or at least subject to "critical,
phyrronian scrutiny".
But this is a truism. Of course you have to be critical and it goes for
EVERY person
who wants to tell you something, including Eastern mystics.
If you find a spiritual teacher to be a fucking hypocrite, turn your back on
him (or her)
but not on spirituality.
All in all, I think you have good chances to successfully separate the
stupid from the wise.
piotr
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:02:24 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: science, rationality, religion
See the Dictionary of Critical Sociology for all of the entries on
"progress," "rationality," "science," and "religion."
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rmazur/dictionary/a.html
I sent them previously copied to an email but they were bounced. Pretty
useful explanations of the issues at stake.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:25:20 EST
From: Acousticlv@aol.com
Subject: dave douglas reissue + extras/(taken from GM press release)
APRIL RELEASE: THE MOSAIC SEXTET
Kicking off the 20th anniversary jazz release schedule with this
group is a pleasure and an honor. The Mosaic Sextet existed between
1987-90, and includes some of today's most important young musicians
in their earliest recordings. Led by trumpeter Dave Douglas and pianist
Michael Jefry Stevens, the group also featured violinist Mark Feldman,
bassoonist Michael Rabinowitz, bassist Joe Fonda, and drummer Harvey
Sorgen...
The group's only recording, the 1994 cult favorite "Today, This Moment",
is remastered and restored to print along with an entire second
disc of never before released material from the group's only three
recordingsessions. As much a joy to hear as a historic document,
this set is also noteworthy for its compositions by Douglas and Stevens
(their first on CD as co-leaders) and the first collaboration of
Douglas and Feldman.
For more information on this recording or to order direct from GM,
please call 1-888-GM-MUSIX.
.............
steve k.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:33:09 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: science, rationality, religion
>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
>I am a little bit bewildered that this is the only thing that Bill has to
>rely on to make his point (a cute little critic exercize with the right
>amount of references and quotes to get an A and a congratulation from the
>teacher). If this is representative of the kind of evidence that social
>critics rely on to defend their theories, that's creepy. Regardless of what
>crackpot theory you are infatuated with, you will always find an "expert"
>or a html link to "prove" it.
Actually, my intentions behind citing the link were far more modest than
serving as a "proof" of something. (Now that's scientific language, isn't
it?) I was simply offering the link as an interesting take for any and all
interested parties for their "disinterested inquiry." Now if I really need
to "rely" on something to make a point, I'll certainly quote massive amounts
of academic research to the Zorn list in order to drive my point home. :-)
The link once again is: http://iupjournals.org/differences/dif8-2.html
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:35:33 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
>>>I'm not saying this as a knock,
but in my experience it's all too easy
for someone to take refuge in
"trans-rationalism" to hide a multitude
of sins.<<
At each step up, the capacity
for evil is greater, not lesser.
This is most easily exemplified
on the physical plane by the
the difference between a club
and a nuclear bomb.
Same is true on the levels of
consciousness.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:37:39 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
>>>OK, but how would I know which, for example, this is?<<<
Pre-rational levels do not include rationality.
Trans-rational levels include and transcend rationality.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:40:14 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
on 3/13/01 5:21 PM, DvdBelkin@aol.com at DvdBelkin@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/13/01 1:01:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> keith@pfmentum.com writes:
>
>> It is just important to know and
>> experience the difference between
>> regression to pre-rational levels,
>> which leads to most of the stupidity,
>> and progression to trans-rational
>> levels, which leads to wisdom.
>
> OK, but how would I know which, for example, this is? I'm not saying this as
> a knock, but in my experience it's all too easy for someone to take refuge in
> "trans-rationalism" to hide a multitude of sins. Knew a Swami Satchidananda
> once, for example (anyone remember him? the guy who looked like Gandolf),
> who undoubtedly *did* possess techniques for transcending ordinary
> consciousness, and who was basically a pretty sweet guy to boot - but who
> also possessed really unenlightened ideas about homosexuality and other
> matters, and who it turned out was porking his secretary while he was
> preaching celibacy...
Whatever Swami Satchidananda's sins were, they did nothing to discredit the
search for spiritual enlightenment or techniques for transcending ordinary
consciousness.
- --Mike
- --
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:37:44 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
on 3/12/01 11:20 AM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com wrote:
>
> On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:36:23 -0500 Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>>
>> on 3/9/01 11:21 PM, Joseph Zitt at jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 11:08:15PM -0500, Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, but religion is not science.
>>>
>>> There are several meanings of "science" which clearly include aspects
>>> of religions. And the farther toward the edges of each you get (as
>>> well as those of "art") the more the areas blur.
>>
>> I agree completely. There are many similarities between science and
>> religion, starting with the fact that they are faith-based knowledge
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> And this is written seriously by somebody typing at its keyboard a message
> sent through Internet, maybe the most amazing scientific achievement of
> humankind (by merging almost every technology)...
>
> How can you say that with a straight face when you can find almost any
> flavor of religion you can imagine and when there is always only one
> scientific explanation for almost every phenomena (with the exception
> of the most speculative and new research)?
And there has always been only one scientific explanation for every
phenomenon, right? I missed that lecture in my history of science class.
Science is faith based in the sense that many believe it has the answer to
all questions, that only that which can be measured or held exists, that it
has all the answers to all its own problems, that it is a basis for
morality, that it is above criticism--I could go on, but you get the idea.
But I should have been more precise. Scientific knowledge itself is not
faith-based, but many of its adherents treat is as the only truth, which is
a religious attitude, a gesture of faith.
>
>> systems. Both get into trouble when they try to usurp what I see to be as
>> the proper role of the other, though.
>
> Are you talking about science or its use by politicians and others?
>
I have no problem with the scientific method. It is the best way to
understand the functioning of physical phenomena. But it is no basis for
ethical decisions, and technology has been used immorally and/or dangerously
over the years. So yes, any criticism of science that *I* have, is of the
way it is used.
Oh, BTW, prove to me that God--or whatever you want to call a higher
spiritual power--does not exist. Atheism is based as much on faith as
theism is.
- --Mike
- --
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #334
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