ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v03.n326

Internet Message Format | 2001-03-09 | 23KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #326
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest       Saturday, March 10 2001       Volume 03 : Number 326



In this issue:
-
       Re: Religion/Music
       Re: Re(2): music is my rabbi
       Re: Religion/Music
       Re: music is my high priestess
       Re: Religion/Music
       Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi
       science, rationality, religion
       Re: Religion/Music
       Re: Religion/Music
       Babies with the Bongwater
       Re: Babies with the Bongwater
       Re: Babies with the Bongwater
       Re: Religion/Music
       RE: Religion/Music
       RE: Religion/Music
       Odp: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
       Odp: z-list/interaction
       Re: Re(2): music is my rabbi
       Matthew Shipp -- Magnetism
       Re: Jr. High School Tendencies of Great Musicians ;-)
       Re: Jr. High School Tendencies of Great Musicians ;-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:26:36 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music

on 3/9/01 5:41 PM, Brian Olewnick at [e-mail] wrote:

> s~Z wrote:
>
>> My wife and I made sure to steer as far from the Western medical model
>> as we could in the births of our three children.
>
> I take it you don't steer quite so far off when listening to CD's or
> connecting to the Net, tho', eh? Not to mention a billion other things.

One can reject certain "scientific" practices--the ones that *don't*
work--without rejecting those that do.

The conflict between science and religion comes about mainly because there
are many ultra-religionists on one side and ultra-rationalists on the other
side who believe that their thought system can explain everything.  And just
as rationalists can point to many historical instances of persecution
brought about by religious intolerance, we can find examples--Stalinist
Russia, Nazi Germany--where essentially "godless" ultra-rationalists sought
to stamp out some, or all, religious expression.
>
> Brian Olewnick (who, though admiring the hell out of Braxton's music,
> also wonders about various jr. high school level aspects of his
> "cosmology")

One man's faith is another man's idiocy.

- --Mike

- --



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:49:54 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re(2): music is my rabbi

>>>For those of us who have not experienced inspiration, further
explanation will
grow no less abstract.<<<

So why discuss this at all then?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:53:29 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music

> My wife and I made sure to steer as far from the Western medical
model
> as we could in the births of our three children.

I take it you don't steer quite so far off when listening to CD's or
connecting to the Net, tho', eh? Not to mention a billion other
things.

No, actually I steer much much FARTHER from
the Western medical model when listening to CDs
and connecting to the Net. You must be into some
really cool biological-technological interfaces.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:56:44 -0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: music is my high priestess

>From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>

>What is "spiritual' and how is music thus?

"Of, pertaining to, affecting or concerning, the spirit or higher moral
qualities, esp. as regarded in a religious aspect..."

"Of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit, regarded in either a religious
or intellectual aspect; of the nature of a spirit or incorporeal
supernatural essence; immaterial"

"Consisting of pure essence or spirit; volatile..."

"Of or pertaining to, emanating from the intellect or higher faculties of
the mind..."

"Characterized by a high degree of refinement of thought or feeling..."

Also: Spirit as a verb: "To infuse spirit, life, ardour, or energy...to
excite, instigate, or stir up...to invest with a spirit or animating
principle..."

Just in case: Spirit: "The animating or vital principle in man (and
animals); that which gives life to the physical organism..."

Taken from the Shorter (Wayne) Oxford English Dictionary
>
>np: Julius Hemphill Blue Boye
>
>
>
>
>
>-
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 03:05:04 -0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music

>From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>

>The conflict between science and religion...

Science IS religion...

'Pataphysics is the science...

N.P. Mingus Plays Piano
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 03:46:44 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi

>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:50:53 -0800
>From: "Martin Wisckol" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi
>
>Art is the highest metaphysical purpose of man. -- Friedrich Nietzsche

And Nietzsche hated metaphysics.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 04:07:32 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: science, rationality, religion

Does a critique of the limits of rationality and scientific thought mean
that a philosopher doesn't want to ride an airplane or have surgery?  Shall
I ask one and see if he sees the "obvious" contradiction?  Of course science
depends very much on logic and rational thought.  One of the fundamental
principles of logic is the avoidance of "ad hominem" fallacies, where one
attacks the person rather than the logic of the argument, and the "straw
man" fallacy, where one concocts a dubious reinactment of another's argument
in order to destroy it in a facile way.  Of course, there is a branch of
philosophy called the philosophy of science.  Many philosophers in this
field are also scientists.  Many are also part of scientific communities.
Wittgenstein's point on language is simply that all concepts, even that of
scientific discourse, are always imbedded in language and are subject to the
problems inherent in language. (There is also a branch of philosophy called
the philosophy of language.  Sometimes practitioners of this area talk to
the philosophers of science.)

We cannot simply expect to solve all our problems by technology.  Technology
is the source of "instrumental reason," where human beings are turned into
things, into numbers, into inconsequential lists of credentials.
Technologism (technology for technology's sake) has been the source of
environmental destruction, for the creation of weapons of mass destruction,
for the privileging of science over people and environments.  This is what
is called "progress."  Philosophers criticize this kind of thinking because
science (and technology) becomes reinscribed into religion, with all its
blind adherence and devotion.

Naturally I'm on the side of these philosophers.  Does this mean I will stop
writing airplanes or use my computer or get rid of my refrigerator?  Does
questioning the limits of a thing in terms of its power and domination mean
that one must throw the whole thing out the door?
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:08:15 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music

on 3/9/01 10:05 PM, thomas chatterton at [e-mail] wrote:

>> From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
>
>> The conflict between science and religion...
>
> Science IS religion...

Yes, but religion is not science.

- --Mike


- --



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:21:18 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music

On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 11:08:15PM -0500, Mike Chamberlain wrote:

> Yes, but religion is not science.

There are several meanings of "science" which clearly include aspects
of religions. And the farther toward the edges of each you get (as
well as those of "art") the more the areas blur.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:23:08 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Babies with the Bongwater

>>>Does questioning the limits of a thing in terms of its power and
domination mean
that one must throw the whole thing out the door?<<<


Well of course not, but let's throw it out the door anyway.

This list is turning me into a pop fiend.

Thanks to this list I now am immersed in David Bowie's catalog,
and am relistening to all eras of King Crimson and the Sunshine Band.
All this amidst a bunch of philosophical swagger. Oh yeah...and that
Bjuick
CD, Homoerogenenics. Who will save me from this regression?
I can't wait to reencounter Braxton's middle-school tunes.
Help me somebody.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:25:06 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Babies with the Bongwater

on 3/9/01 11:23 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] puffed unimpressively:

> Thanks to this list I now am immersed in David Bowie's catalog,
> and am relistening to all eras of King Crimson and the Sunshine Band.
> All this amidst a bunch of philosophical swagger. Oh yeah...and that
> Bjuick
> CD, Homoerogenenics. Who will save me from this regression?
> I can't wait to reencounter Braxton's middle-school tunes.

> Help me somebody.

That's Talking Heads/Eno.

Just trying to help,
Rrrrrr

 ----------
Sessionographies:
~~~   CRISPELL;  IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.
Discographies:
~~~  COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI,; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.

Also:
 --Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things
 --Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--The Interview--ETC.

all at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? :
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/LUCILLE/splash.html



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:49:22 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Babies with the Bongwater

On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 11:25:06PM -0500, Rick Lopez wrote:
> on 3/9/01 11:23 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] puffed unimpressively:
>
> > Help me somebody.
>
> That's Talking Heads/Eno.

Actually, that's David Byrne/Brian Eno.

> Just trying to help,
> Rrrrrr

That's Chris Cutler.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:36:23 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music

on 3/9/01 11:21 PM, Joseph Zitt at [e-mail] wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 11:08:15PM -0500, Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>
>> Yes, but religion is not science.
>
> There are several meanings of "science" which clearly include aspects
> of religions. And the farther toward the edges of each you get (as
> well as those of "art") the more the areas blur.

I agree completely.  There are many similarities between science and
religion, starting with the fact that they are faith-based knowledge
systems.  Both get into trouble when they try to usurp what I see to be as
the proper role of the other, though.

- --Mike
- --



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:33:13 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Religion/Music

Except for on side one of 'Tales from Topographic Oceans.'

Steve Smith
[e-mail]

- -----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail]
[mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Mike Chamberlain
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:08 PM
To: thomas chatterton; [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Religion/Music


Yes, but religion is not science.

- --Mike

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:07:24 +0100
From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Religion/Music

> Hard to write a clearer state of
> total failure (for philosophy)...

To say "philosophy failed" you have to know, what was the goal of
philosophy. Patrice, what was it? Common goal for all philosophers? To my
best knowledge, some philosophies (philosophy isn't a science, philosophies
can co-exist as alterntives, none can proove the other is "wrong", even over
centuries, therefore we have many philosophies) say, philosophy is just a
_way_ for a human being. It doesn't have a goal like science does. Therefore
it will never fail. You just go along the way of philosophy. One german word
describes the philosophy best: "Voraussetzunglosigkeit" - only philosophy
can question every "Voraussetzung", science not (and this is the difference
with religion). If you put a questionmark everywhere, what _can_ be the goal
for philosophy? A failure - in this meaning - is build-in.

    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno at emd dot pl] muzyka.emd.pl


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:05:46 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ari <[e-mail]>

> > Oh please say it. Please. Read Stravinsky's _The Poetics Of Music_.

> I'll do that...:-)

And if you do, tell me how did you get the book. It's not that easy to find

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail] [e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:40:58 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: z-list/interaction

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Patrice L. Roussel <[e-mail]>

> > politics is nothing more or less than the way people in groups
> > interact, hence its significance, both musically and socially.

> In this case, since most human activities are with others, what is not
> politics in our lives? Making love is politics? Having a nice dinner
> with friends is politics? Taking care of a baby is politics?

I'd say: yes, making love is politics, although to a very small degree (or
maybe not, if you look at the complicated process that seduction is). But,
as an important part of our lives, it is one of the things that build the
quality of our lives, so a thing that politics affect. Of course, I use
'politic' in a wide sense that include all aspects of social dependence, of
widely accepted norms (young girls are bettter then old girls, etc.).
Music, especially live music, is much more political: it consist in
conc\vincing people to come to a certain place and to listen to the music
being played. Good music should prevent them from asking question 'what's
the use of it' or even 'will I be in a good mood while listening to it?',
'will i be in a good mood after i leave the show, and will it make me spend
a nice evening?'. It can make you - or require from you - to value things in
quite non instrumental way.
I liked the Cage quote very much

Marcin Gokieli
[e-mail] [e-mail]
Generally speaking, if a philosopher offers to 'dissolve' the problem you
are working on, tell him to go climb a tree - Jerry Fodor


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:30:54 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re(2): music is my rabbi

on 3/9/01 9:49 PM, s~Z at [e-mail] wrote:

>>>> For those of us who have not experienced inspiration, further
> explanation will
> grow no less abstract.<<<
>
> So why discuss this at all then?
>

Are you saying that we shouldn't/can't discuss abstract notions?  If you
need everything to be concrete, step back.  Otherwise, dig in.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:34:16 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Matthew Shipp -- Magnetism

Anyone know where I can find a copy of Matthew shipp's "Magnetism" disc?
It's probably hiding out in the Twilight Zone with Tim Berne's "Fractured
Fairy Tales."

Still trying to re-establish his bookmarks after a crash,
Tom

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:47:58 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jr. High School Tendencies of Great Musicians ;-)

Mike, that shaven-headed Canadian guy, said something on the order of:

<It's a matter of faith> (sorry, deleted the original) with regard to
systems of belief, cosmologies etc. of a given musician.

Now, far be it from me to get into raging arguments over the religious
beliefs of (in this case) musicians I admire, but I do think it's
reasonable to draw a line somewhere between, say, Buddhism and belief in
Santa Claus. In the case of Mr. Braxton, it drives me up a wall that
he's endorsed blather like astrology and numerology (not much removed
from the Easter Bunny, imho) and, worse, even dallied with a
"philosophy" concocted expressly as a scam by a pulp science fiction
writer sitting in a bar in the late 1940's (documented by other writers
in attendance). Is it impermissable to question someone's "faith" in a
bunch of hokum like Scientology? Not to me. One can argue how far up the
ladder it's worth arguing about (I'd go pretty far myself), but at some
level it becomes as pathetic as a grown man putting out cookies for St.
Nick and, as such, is suitable grist for discussion. I may have missed
it, but I've yet to see an interviewer question Braxton (or
others--don't mean to hold AB to a different standard) on things like
this; that attitude of "Oh, it's all relative, one must not question"
seems to hold sway. In his case, I think some of these beliefs pervade
the plot constructions of his narrative-oriented musical work and,
indeed, end up coming across not dissimilar to the product of a feverish
post-adolescent who's just read Tolkien or Gibran. Excusable in a
youngster, perhaps, far less so in an intelligent adult.

But that's just my opinion. Mike, we can hash this out over some poutine
in Victo. If you're lucky Vlad won't be a Yank by then. ;-)

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:19:00 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jr. High School Tendencies of Great Musicians ;-)

on 3/10/01 10:47 AM, Brian Olewnick at [e-mail] wrote:

> Mike, that shaven-headed Canadian guy, said something on the order of:
>
> <It's a matter of faith> (sorry, deleted the original) with regard to
> systems of belief, cosmologies etc. of a given musician.
>
> Now, far be it from me to get into raging arguments over the religious
> beliefs of (in this case) musicians I admire, but I do think it's
> reasonable to draw a line somewhere between, say, Buddhism and belief in
> Santa Claus.

Like the estimable Mr. Olewnik, I agree that while belief in Santa Claus is
quite reasonable, Buddhism eludes rational attempts at understanding.

>In the case of Mr. Braxton, it drives me up a wall that
> he's endorsed blather like astrology and numerology (not much removed
> from the Easter Bunny, imho)

Again, while I've never had any doubt that the Easter Bunny exists as a
benevolent semi-deity, I still have one or two questions about astrology and
numerology.

> and, worse, even dallied with a
> "philosophy" concocted expressly as a scam by a pulp science fiction
> writer sitting in a bar in the late 1940's (documented by other writers
> in attendance). Is it impermissable to question someone's "faith" in a
> bunch of hokum like Scientology? Not to me. One can argue how far up the
> ladder it's worth arguing about (I'd go pretty far myself), but at some
> level it becomes as pathetic as a grown man putting out cookies for St.
> Nick and, as such, is suitable grist for discussion. I may have missed
> it, but I've yet to see an interviewer question Braxton (or
> others--don't mean to hold AB to a different standard) on things like
> this; that attitude of "Oh, it's all relative, one must not question"
> seems to hold sway. In his case, I think some of these beliefs pervade
> the plot constructions of his narrative-oriented musical work and,
> indeed, end up coming across not dissimilar to the product of a feverish
> post-adolescent who's just read Tolkien or Gibran. Excusable in a
> youngster, perhaps, far less so in an intelligent adult.

Religious faith, though, is not based on logic.  Nor is it based, most of
the time, on the notion that all things are knowable.  In fact, it seems to
me that it rests to a great extent on the idea that there are many things
which are not knowable.  Not that religion explains those things that are
not knowable, but it provides, at the very least, a means for understanding,
or at least acceptance.  Better to accept those things that are unknowable
(e.g., why Santa Claus exists) than to waste one's time on trying to figure
out how eight tiny reindeer can pull a fat man and toys for all the good
boys and girls around the world in the space of twenty-four hours, with time
out for climbing up and down chimneys and eating cookies.
>
> But that's just my opinion. Mike, we can hash this out over some poutine
> in Victo. If you're lucky Vlad won't be a Yank by then. ;-)

Your belief that Vlad will end up a Yankee in the near future is a perfect
example of complete irrationality.

- --Mike
- --



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #326
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]