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2001-03-09
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #325
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, March 9 2001 Volume 03 : Number 325
In this issue:
-
Re: religious/political (?)
Re: music is my rabbi
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Religion/Music
Re: evan parker with strings
Re: evan parker with strings
Re: archery
noise questions...
Re: archery
Cage; Religion/Music
Re(2): music is my rabbi
Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi
Re: Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi
Re: Cage; Religion/Music
z-list/hans eisler/essays on politics of music-
zornlist/jews/nonlyric political music/mussorgsky's jews
Re: Cage; Religion/Music
Re: Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi
Re: Cage; Religion/Music (no Z.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:36:39 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: religious/political (?)
>>>or maybe is all just ju ju.<<<
Braxton of course expounds
that the vibrations of music
have specific psycho-spiritual
effects.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:37:49 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: music is my rabbi
>>>any halfway decent music is by its nature spiritual.<<<
But what does this sentence mean?
What is "spiritual' and how is music thus?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:41:13 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
>>>I also expect you to feel the same the day you will have a surgical
operation, or your wife will give birth to a baby (since we do not ask
anymore
to a husband to choose between the mother and the baby, thanks to
modern
medecine based on science and rational thinking).<<<
My wife and I made sure to steer as far from the Western medical model
as we could in the births of our three children.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:41:08 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnick@gis.net>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
s~Z wrote:
> My wife and I made sure to steer as far from the Western medical model
> as we could in the births of our three children.
I take it you don't steer quite so far off when listening to CD's or
connecting to the Net, tho', eh? Not to mention a billion other things.
Brian Olewnick (who, though admiring the hell out of Braxton's music,
also wonders about various jr. high school level aspects of his
"cosmology")
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:25:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <mingusaum@yahoo.ca>
Subject: Re: evan parker with strings
You guys know my feelings.
Let's call it the Thurston Moore school of
quasi-improv.
Ken Waxman
- --- "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
wrote:
>
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:41:31 EST JonAbbey2@aol.com
> wrote:
> >
> The other cliche in full effect was the
> "Nirvana" school of non-idiomatic
> > improv - here's a loud bit, now here's a quiet
> bit, followed by...a loud bit!>>
> >
> > personally, I like to refer to that as the John
> Zorn school of free improv.
>
> Jon, you have no pity :-).
>
> Patrice.
>
> -
>
_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:47:35 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: evan parker with strings
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:25:39 -0500 (EST) Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> You guys know my feelings.
>
> Let's call it the Thurston Moore school of
> quasi-improv.
I disagree. Thurston Moore belongs to the school: "Let's play first and think
after (if not too tired)" :-).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:53:28 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: archery
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:36:48 EST Samerivertwice@aol.com wrote:
>
> According to CDNOW (or Amazon, I forget), Archery has been remastered and
> includes a disc of bonus outtakes. I believe the outtakes are just one long
> rehearsal. It's a 3CD set. For some reason, Cheap-CDs.com has it for $10.
> Their website says it's the one released on 2/27/01, so I'm assuming it's the
> 3CD set. I bought one.
As far as I can tell, the 3xCD set has the exact same content as the 3 x CD
from THE PARACHUTE YEARS:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
284 - ARCHERY: John Zorn
Disc 1: Archery (rehearsal)
1/ Part 1 32:10
2/ Part 2 16:14
3/ Part 3 28:32
Disc 2 and 3: Archery
4/ A1-D2 20:35
5/ D3-G1 20:07
6/ G2-L4 23:53
7/ L5-O14 23:29
2001 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7316-4 (3xCD)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which means that the ad is quite misleading since everybody should know that
a 3xCD set has more stuff than a 2xLP one...
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:16:57 -0500
From: "Bruno Bissonnette" <burningwater@hotmail.com>
Subject: noise questions...
Hello all,
While reading the reviews section of Bananafish #14, I ran across some weird
drawing which would depict Maso Yamazaki's (a.k.a. Masonna) throat/neck
being outfitted with some sort of internal/external apparatus, the use of
which would be to replace his damaged vocal cords and allow him to keep
doing the vocal screaming noise (as explained in the accompanying
reviews)... now, as ridiculous as this may seem, could this be true? Or are
the people at bananafish just making this up for fun (which wouldn't really
be surprising).
While on noise... would someone please recommend some discs by Hijokaidan,
and also Incapacitants? Thanks.
Lastly... does anyone here know about the KONTAKTA CD? I've heard that it's
supposed to be some great live musique concrete from 1992, but can't come up
with any other information about it anywhere.
Thanks,
Bruno
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:17:48 EST
From: Samerivertwice@aol.com
Subject: Re: archery
In a message dated 3/9/01 6:53:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
proussel@ichips.intel.com writes:
<< On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:36:48 EST Samerivertwice@aol.com wrote:
>
> According to CDNOW (or Amazon, I forget), Archery has been remastered and
> includes a disc of bonus outtakes. I believe the outtakes are just one
long
> rehearsal. It's a 3CD set. For some reason, Cheap-CDs.com has it for
$10.
> Their website says it's the one released on 2/27/01, so I'm assuming it's
the
> 3CD set. I bought one.
As far as I can tell, the 3xCD set has the exact same content as the 3 x CD
from THE PARACHUTE YEARS:
IT IS IDENTICAL. I just go it in the mail. Still, since I didn't own the
Parachute box set, $10 for 3CD seems a sweet deal. It is not, though, any
different from the previously released box set.
Tom
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
284 - ARCHERY: John Zorn
Disc 1: Archery (rehearsal)
1/ Part 1 32:10
2/ Part 2 16:14
3/ Part 3 28:32
Disc 2 and 3: Archery
4/ A1-D2 20:35
5/ D3-G1 20:07
6/ G2-L4 23:53
7/ L5-O14 23:29
2001 - Tzadik (USA), TZ 7316-4 (3xCD)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which means that the ad is quite misleading since everybody should know that
a 3xCD set has more stuff than a 2xLP one...
Patrice. >>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:36:29 -0500
From: "Ryan W. Blum" <rblum@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Cage; Religion/Music
I'm probably a Religion/Music major, so there's one connection between the
two. Seriously though, it's a fascinating discussion that goes far beyond
ethnomusicology... I will recommend to anyone that hasn't already read it
John Cage's _Silence_, specifically the "Lecture on Nothing." Required
reading for the list. What's striking to me about it is that he's not
espousing Buddhist doctrine per se, but rather arriving at some of the same
concepts through musical "reasoning"; as well, the entire thing reads like a
Sutra, with its mantric section, etc. As mentioned, Heidigger's "The Nature
of Language" (from _On the Road to Language_) provides a fantastic
description of the linguistic "experience" which Cage achieves, which is
directly related to the musical experience that he is trying to explain (and
which many of us hope to be struck by with the music we enjoy). All highly
recommended, life-changing reading.
Has anyone on the list done research into the Cage/Buddhism phenomenon (this
is the wrong way to phrase it; it's too natural of a connection)? I'm
heading towards a thesis on the subject and would appreciate any info,
recommendation, direction, etc.
Patrice wrote:
> I am sure that when you are in a plane, you feel secure to know that it was
> designed by people with a rational approach
> Please enlight me: what has religion (or "the sacred way of knowing the
> world") brought us in the near past? I don't keep up to date with these
> topics.
I'm not going to argue that religion has given anything to the Western world
in the latest epoch (though it should be argued by the right person), but I
will say that it's incredibly problematic to judge these things with our
particular collective lens (not to mention everyone's personal set of
values). This is a simplistic and cliche example, but it says something: I
can debate human rights vs. the caste system with a Hindi person until the
cows come home, but it will be like trains passing in the night--people's
essential values can be THAT radically different. I, being a good Westerner,
evolve most of my beliefs from the idea of the individual. If someone
believes in the notion of endless eons of karmic transfer, then they believe
that things are fundamentally different, that caste issues are out of their
hands and into the hands of the Cosmos. You can atttack that issue all you
want--no scientific proof, etc.--but belief is a STONG thing. It's not that
Religion has offered US anything, but that belief is just as strong the
belief we have in our technology, rationality, etc.
Excited for Matt Maneri with Mark Dresser tomorrow night at the Boston MCA,
Ryan
NP, in honor: Cage, nova musicha n.1
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:44:23 -0800
From: "Martin Wisckol" <Martin_Wisckol@link.freedom.com>
Subject: Re(2): music is my rabbi
keith@pfmentum.com writes:
>>>>any halfway decent music is by its nature spiritual.<<<
>
>But what does this sentence mean?
>
>What is "spiritual' and how is music thus?
>
My premise here is that most humans have emotional, physical, intellectual
and spiritual aspects. I consider inspiration a spiritual function -- note
the root of each word. Thus, inspired music is spiritual music. ... For
those of us who have not experienced inspiration, further explanation will
grow no less abstract.
>
>
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:50:53 -0800
From: "Martin Wisckol" <Martin_Wisckol@link.freedom.com>
Subject: Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi
Art is the highest metaphysical purpose of man. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:59:25 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:50:53 -0800 "Martin Wisckol" wrote:
>
> Art is the highest metaphysical purpose of man. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
Particle physics is not bad either, but it is harder to chat about
at a tea party, and since it is so rational, you take the risk that
somebody can prove you that you are wrong.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:07:49 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Cage; Religion/Music
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 19:36:29 -0500 "Ryan W. Blum" wrote:
>
> hands and into the hands of the Cosmos. You can atttack that issue all you
> want--no scientific proof, etc.--but belief is a STONG thing. It's not that
> Religion has offered US anything, but that belief is just as strong the
> belief we have in our technology, rationality, etc.
Except that some things work, some don't. It is funny how you put everything
on the same level (common "post-modern" attitude where there is no truth,
everything is "constructed" and relative). Technology (hard to find something
more rational than that) seems to be espoused beyond race and culture, even
by the most religious fanatics. How do you explain that? Are people stupid
and brainwashed that they jump on the latest technology and science? Or there
is maybe something in technology/science that is totally missing in religion?
I give you a clue: it works.
I agree that there are things that are "constructed" and relative (in the
sense that mine is not better than yours): religion, it definitely one.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:26:05 EST
From: Acousticlv@aol.com
Subject: z-list/hans eisler/essays on politics of music-
In a message dated 3/9/01 3:18:41 PM, you wrote:
<<What does a sentence like "music can be political" mean?>>
i have the book somewhere on my shelf,
but hans eisler has a wonderful anthology called
"a rebel in music." it's less polemic
than much of his actual compositions.
it has a fun essay on p.188 called "on stupidity in music"
where he talks about dangerous music, which he
considers dance music, but he does not consider
dangerous music to be stupid.
kurt, any opinions?
steve koenig n.p.: charlie haden: liberation music orchestra
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:30:59 EST
From: Acousticlv@aol.com
Subject: zornlist/jews/nonlyric political music/mussorgsky's jews
<<Unless you use lyrics, I doubt that any music can convey any political
message>>
in pictures at an exhibition, modest mussorgsky has a scene
called "samuel and schmuyle goldberg" described by him
as a two jews wheedling. in an article i misplaced,
but have if anyone needs, i read and do believe
that, since schmuyle is yiddish for samuel, they are meant to
be two aspects of the same: the "assimilated proper" jew
still has the "whiny offensive" aspect within him...
i wonder what john zorn could do to usurp this piece...
steve koenig n.p.: jimmy sommerville: enough is enough
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:21:36 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Cage; Religion/Music
On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 05:07:49PM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> Except that some things work, some don't. It is funny how you put everything
> on the same level (common "post-modern" attitude where there is no truth,
> everything is "constructed" and relative). Technology (hard to find something
> more rational than that) seems to be espoused beyond race and culture, even
> by the most religious fanatics. How do you explain that? Are people stupid
> and brainwashed that they jump on the latest technology and science? Or there
> is maybe something in technology/science that is totally missing in religion?
> I give you a clue: it works.
What do you mean "works"? If you mean that science best serves the
purposes that science does, and that therefore that which is not
science is lesser for it, that's like saying that a turntable is
insufficiently useful because it can't steer a car. Or, more on topic,
to say that we can be ignore John Zorn's composing because he's not
all that striking a singer.
Or, in other words, a person who can only see nails overvalues his
hammer.
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:09:24 -0500
From: Rick Lopez <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: Meshell Ndegeocello is my rabbi
on 3/9/01 7:59 PM, Patrice L. Roussel at proussel@ichips.intel.com puffed
unimpressively:
>
> On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:50:53 -0800 "Martin Wisckol" wrote:
>>
>> Art is the highest metaphysical purpose of man. -- Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> Particle physics is not bad either, but it is harder to chat about
> at a tea party, and since it is so rational, you take the risk that
> somebody can prove you that you are wrong.
Nothing all that "rational" about the quantum.
And it really MAKES a tea party.
;-)
RL
----------
Sessionographies:
~~~ CRISPELL; IBARRA; Wm. PARKER; RIVERS; SHIPP; D.S. WARE.
Discographies:
~~~ COURVOISIER; ENEIDI; MANERI,; MORRIS; SPEARMAN; THREADGILL; WORKMAN.
Also:
--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things
--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--The Interview--ETC.
all at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k
WHERE THE HELL HAVE I BEEN??? :
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/LUCILLE/splash.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:19:03 -0500
From: "Ryan W. Blum" <rblum@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Cage; Religion/Music (no Z.)
> Except that some things work, some don't.
True that. And the "problem" with religion is that many of its claims aren't
verifiable, especially through means such as the scientific method... I saw
a video of a panel discussion with among others Huston Smith and Carl Sagan.
Sagan said something to the tone of, I haven't found anything better to get
at truth than the scientific method. Smith, of course, retorted saying that
science can't test the "big" things... it can only test observable
phenomena. Sagan said, Science can test big things... we know about
SUPERNOVAS and galaxies and stuff... and Smith said that's not 'bigger' than
ourselves... trains passing in the night.
> Technology (hard to find something
> more rational than that) seems to be espoused beyond race and culture, even
> by the most religious fanatics. How do you explain that? Are people stupid
It might be--and I apologize for deflating the deathmatch--that technology
and religion aren't so diametrically opposed. No doubt that some parts of
them are (ex. certain claims made in Tibetan 'Buddhist' medicine which are
related to Buddhism and aren't compatible with Western medicine), but at
their core, they aren't so disdainful of one another.
still playing John Cage: nova musicha n.1
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #325
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