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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #327
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Saturday, March 10 2001 Volume 03 : Number 327
In this issue:
-
Re: science, rationality, religion
RE: Religion/Music
Summer Festivals in Poland
Artur Nowak
Re: Religion/Music
Re: Religion/Music
Re: science, rationality, religion
Re: music is my rabbi
Re: Religion/Music
RE: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
Re: Odp: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
Re: science, rationality, religion
music history question
prelapse show from noisefest/when zorn/patton opened
Phil Haynes/Herb Robertson quintet (NZC)
Re: music history question
re: music history question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:15:42 EST
From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
In a message dated 3/9/01 11:08:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
bashline@hotmail.com writes:
> We cannot simply expect to solve all our problems by technology.
Inasmuch as no one is arguing anywhere for "solving ALL our problems by
technology, " this is a good example of knocking down a straw man.
> Technology
> is the source of "instrumental reason," where human beings are turned into
> things, into numbers, into inconsequential lists of credentials.
Oh, on the contrary, the idea of humans beings as mere instruments of
teleological purposes far predates the scientific revolution in the West.
Indeed, this is par excellance a religious notion, and was the indispensable
ideological and psychological mortor of every crusade, every inquisition,
every mass auto-da-fe conducted for the glory of God... Read, say, an
account of the sack of Beziers in 1209 (this was the moment during the
Albigensian Crusade when cisterian Monk and papal plenipotentiary Arnold
Amaury declared "Kill them all. God will know his own.") and then tell me
that the reduction of humans to "inconsequential lists of credentials" is a
unique feature of godless science.
> Technologism (technology for technology's sake) has been the source of
> environmental destruction, for the creation of weapons of mass
destruction,
> for the privileging of science over people and environments. This is what
> is called "progress."
The extension of life expectancies by 30 years, the reduction of the portion
of a typical life consumed by numbing toil by the equivalent of decades, the
vast majority of human beings on this planet far better fed, better clothed,
better sheltered, and less diseased than their forebears were a century ago,
the exposure of heretofore isolated communities to the cultural treasures and
achievements of the world - here's more good examples of "the privileging of
science over people." Yes, by all means, put the word "progress" in quotes;
it's much cleaner than considering the good with the bad.
> Philosophers criticize this kind of thinking because
> science (and technology) becomes reinscribed into religion, with all its
> blind adherence and devotion.
One finds blind adherence and devotion among the radical critics of all
things western/capitalist/American too.
> Naturally I'm on the side of these philosophers. Does this mean I will
stop
>
> writing airplanes or use my computer or get rid of my refrigerator? Does
> questioning the limits of a thing in terms of its power and domination
mean
> that one must throw the whole thing out the door?
No, but this kind of reminds me of the yuppies who move out to some charming
upcountry village or town and immediately start agitating to restrict
_further_ growth so as to preserve "their" community. Funny how people tend
to exempt themselves whenever they warn that some development has gone too
far.
David
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 12:41:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <mingusaum@yahoo.ca>
Subject: RE: Religion/Music
- --- Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com> wrote:
> Except for on side one of 'Tales from Topographic
> Oceans.'
>
> Steve Smith
Jazz is my religion
- - Art Blakey
Ken
> ssmith36@sprynet.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-zorn-list@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf
> Of Mike Chamberlain
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:08 PM
> To: thomas chatterton; zorn-list@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: Religion/Music
>
>
> Yes, but religion is not science.
>
> --Mike
_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:52:57 +0100
From: "Artur Nowak" <arno@emd.pl>
Subject: Summer Festivals in Poland
First news about the programs:
Warsaw Summer Jazz Days - June 2001:
http://www.emd.pl/emd/pl4/festivals/w/wsjd/2001/program.htm
Gdynia Summer Jazz Days - July 2001:
http://www.emd.pl/emd/pl4/festivals/g/gsjd/2001/program.htm
__________________________________________________________________
Artur Nowak [arno at emd dot pl] muzyka.emd.pl
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:15:09 EST
From: Samerivertwice@aol.com
Subject: Artur Nowak
Artur,
Everytime I try to email you my message gets bumped back as "undeliverable."
Could you please contact me?
Thanks,
tom
______________________________________________________________________
Phil Spector: "I've been listening to a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber lately,
and enjoying it. Someday I hope to set his stuff to music."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:18:43 -0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <chatterton23@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
>From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
>Yes, but religion is not science.
>
Oh??? Try: www.christian-science-csb.com
"God is the tangential point between zero and infinity."
Alfred Jarry
np:Les Rallizes Denudes live
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:23:10 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
on 3/10/01 2:18 PM, thomas chatterton at chatterton23@hotmail.com wrote:
>> From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
>
>> Yes, but religion is not science.
>>
> Oh??? Try: www.christian-science-csb.com
Right. Like I said, religion is not science.
>
> "God is the tangential point between zero and infinity."
>
> Alfred Jarry
>
Mr. Jarry is on to something there.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:25:58 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
on 3/10/01 12:15 PM, DvdBelkin@aol.com at DvdBelkin@aol.com wrote:
>> Naturally I'm on the side of these philosophers. Does this mean I will
> stop
>>
>> writing airplanes or use my computer or get rid of my refrigerator? Does
>> questioning the limits of a thing in terms of its power and domination
> mean
>> that one must throw the whole thing out the door?
>
> No, but this kind of reminds me of the yuppies who move out to some charming
> upcountry village or town and immediately start agitating to restrict
> _further_ growth so as to preserve "their" community. Funny how people tend
> to exempt themselves whenever they warn that some development has gone too
> far.
>
What the f**k are you talking about? Or, more politely, your analogy hardly
fits.
- --Mike
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:26:04 EST
From: Nvinokur@aol.com
Subject: Re: music is my rabbi
In a message dated 3/9/01 5:39:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
keith@pfmentum.com writes:
<< What is "spiritual' and how is music thus? >>
There are different realms of reality, ie..physical, spiritual....music, if
it strikes the right internal chords is spiritual. To me, music is a direct
line to God..
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:36:50 EST
From: Nvinokur@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion/Music
In a message dated 3/10/01 1:34:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ssmith36@sprynet.com writes:
<< Except for on side one of 'Tales from Topographic Oceans.' >>
and side 2, 3 and 4
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:31:25 -0700
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki (S)" <M_WIRZBICKI@ColoradoCollege.edu>
Subject: RE: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
- -----Original Message-----
From: Patrice L. Roussel
To: Matthew W Wirzbicki (S)
Cc: 'Ari '; 'zorn-list@lists.xmission.com'; proussel@ichips.intel.com
Sent: 3/9/2001 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
>> i've come across a few writings which criticize the social/political
>> structure of the symphony as I'm sure many of you have...it's funny to
>>see
>> the symphony as the ultimate representation of the marxist capitalist
>> system.
>Yes, we should never underestimate the capability of a dogmatic to
>reduce everything to his dogma (and rate as negligeable quantity everything
>that does not agree to his splendid intellectual construction).
yes, that's essencially why I found it funny. Perhaps there is some truth
to the writing but by and large it's an oversimplified theory that probably
isn't worth the time and energy that the writer put into it.
Matt Wirzbicki
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:44:38 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <newgrange@sfo.com>
Subject: Re: Odp: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
Marcin Gokieli wrote:
>
> > > Oh please say it. Please. Read Stravinsky's _The Poetics Of Music_.
>
> And if you do, tell me how did you get the book. It's not that easy to find
The Harvard University Press bilingual edition (english) seems to be readily
available from Amazon US or UK ... pick yr exchange rate.
- --
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com
"It's no bed of roses, let me tell you, being a mutant."
-- Warren Dearden
np: Moonshake, _Eva Luna
nr: Jalal Toufic, _Over-Sensitivity_
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:24:23 -0000
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: science, rationality, religion
>From: DvdBelkin@aol.com
>Inasmuch as no one is arguing anywhere for "solving ALL our problems by
>technology, " this is a good example of knocking down a straw man.
Really? How so? Some of the arguments put forward by other list-members
suggested that because of numerous technological developments, it was
senseless to try and criticize the advances of science.
> > Technology
> > is the source of "instrumental reason," where human beings are turned
>into
> > things, into numbers, into inconsequential lists of credentials.
>
>Oh, on the contrary, the idea of humans beings as mere instruments of
>teleological purposes far predates the scientific revolution in the West.
Now why would this be a "contrary?" I was insisting, in an abbreviated
form, that "instrumental" thinking had developed in the twentieth century
concurrently (and determinably) with science. You seem to be operating
under the assumption that the development of science marked a cleavage from
religion. My point (paraphrasing others as well) is that it didn't.
>Indeed, this is par excellance a religious notion,
Precisely.
>and was the indispensable
>ideological and psychological mortor of every crusade, every inquisition,
>every mass auto-da-fe conducted for the glory of God... Read, say, an
>account of the sack of Beziers in 1209 (this was the moment during the
>Albigensian Crusade when cisterian Monk and papal plenipotentiary Arnold
>Amaury declared "Kill them all. God will know his own.") and then tell me
>that the reduction of humans to "inconsequential lists of credentials" is a
>unique feature of godless science.
This isn't the same thing that I'm talking about. I'm talking about what
might be called the dark underbelly of progress. It is during those moments
of great scientific advance, that a concurrent "instrumentalism" develops.
It is sometimes called "bureaucratic rationality." I wasn't discussing
massive "auto-da-fe's," but if you want to go there, we can discuss the
meticulous record keeping during the Holocaust or that by the Khmer Rouge to
show a cleavage with earlier mass brutalities on the level of
instrumentalism. And let's not forget that genocide has been largely a 20th
century problem.
>
>The extension of life expectancies by 30 years, the reduction of the
>portion
>of a typical life consumed by numbing toil by the equivalent of decades,
>the
>vast majority of human beings on this planet far better fed, better
>clothed,
>better sheltered, and less diseased than their forebears were a century
>ago,
>the exposure of heretofore isolated communities to the cultural treasures
>and
>achievements of the world - here's more good examples of "the privileging
>of
>science over people." Yes, by all means, put the word "progress" in
>quotes;
>it's much cleaner than considering the good with the bad.
Let me see if I have you straight. If one criticizes the limits of science
and technology, one is therefore criticizing science and wanting to throw
scientific progress out the window with all of the bastardizations of
science? This is not what I'm saying at all. The argument (the prior straw
man--turned here into the either-or fallacy) was that because of the
advances of science, one should not criticize science per se. The fact of
merely riding an airplane or enjoying a trip to the hospital were sufficient
enough to pummel the problem of "scientific rationality." Obviously, this
kind of "reductio-ad-absurdum" does not get anywhere near the problems
outlined by the philosophers that no one has yet bothered reading (outside
of a few).
>One finds blind adherence and devotion among the radical critics of all
>things western/capitalist/American too.
What is your point? There's certainly less blind adherence there than in
"all things western/capitalist/American." I don't see radical critics,
whomever they might be, having much power over there. Do you? (Upshot:
what is your target here and why?)
>No, but this kind of reminds me of the yuppies who move out to some
>charming
>upcountry village or town and immediately start agitating to restrict
>_further_ growth so as to preserve "their" community. Funny how people
>tend
>to exempt themselves whenever they warn that some development has gone too
>far.
Invidious comparison. I live in a very humble apartment on a even more
humble salary in the far reaches of the globe. I'd love to live in a less
crowded, upcountry village. Does any of this have anything to do with the
farflung problems of the limits of science or technology or "instrumental
rationality," etc.? I think not.
- ------------
Just think of it as "group therapy," s/Z, it's only "group therapy."
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:47:09 -0500
From: Matt Teichman <mft4@cornell.edu>
Subject: music history question
So about Rashied Ali...I've never heard anyone from before the mid-60s play
the kit like that! Did he just wake up one morning and decide he was going
to reinvent the concept of rhythm? Or was it one of those things that
evolved slowly over the years with the gradual innovations of lesser-known
musicians?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:50:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Gatzen <aargh881@yahoo.com>
Subject: prelapse show from noisefest/when zorn/patton opened
hi, I traded this cd with some of you, does anyone
have the setlist. Also is there anyone interested in
trading cdr for cdr?
Tom
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:40:59 EST
From: Jeffcalt@aol.com
Subject: Phil Haynes/Herb Robertson quintet (NZC)
Anyone pick up their album 'Brooklyn-Berlin' on CIMP, and if so, whadaya
think? I like Robertson quite a bit and am a big fan of Vinny Golia, who
appears on the album along with Ned Rothenberg and Ken Filiano. I also saw
Golia and Haynes perform a great duo set some months ago here in L.A., so am
glad to hear they've recorded together.
Anyone know what's Robertson up to in Germany? I spoke to Dominic Duval at a
show about a month back and he raved about how great Herb Robertson is
(something about "Dave Douglas has got nothing on this guy") and told me Tim
Berne kicked him out of his band since Robertson's "an anarchist" or
something to that effect. Duval then pushed the Robertson/ Duval/ Rosen
album 'Falling in Flat Space' on me, telling me it was one of his (Duval's)
best recordings. I, of course, did pick it up and do really enjoy it after
only a few listens.
jeff caltabiano
n.p. phil haynes & free country (2000, premonition)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:23:09 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: music history question
In a message dated 3/10/01 6:46:23 PM, mft4@cornell.edu writes:
<< So about Rashied Ali...I've never heard anyone from before the mid-60s
play
the kit like that! Did he just wake up one morning and decide he was going
to reinvent the concept of rhythm? Or was it one of those things that
evolved slowly over the years with the gradual innovations of lesser-known
musicians? >>
Sunny Murray, Milford Graves and Ed Blackwell all began recording before Ali,
I'm pretty sure.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:13:13 -0500 (EST)
From: josephneff@webtv.net (Joseph Neff)
Subject: re: music history question
Hello,
...Matt Teichman enthused on the rhythmic merits of Mr Rashied
Ali, and yes, he's a great one. His playing on "Live in Japan" and
"Interstellar Space" is some of the most powerful and communicative
drumming that I've heard in my jazz experience. However the acknowledged
grandaddy of free drums is Sunny Murray. His approach to time keeping
was essentially to negate it. Murray was the first truly sympathetic
drummer that Cecil Taylor ever recorded with, and Albert Ayler's stuff
circa '64 features the man to mind-blowing effect (cymbals never got
more abstract). Ekkehard Jost sums up his importance very well in the
book "Free Jazz".
......The mention of Murray relates, to me, to the
political/religious discussion, specifically the album "Sunny's Time
Now" (CD reish on DIW). The recording includes a poem by LeRoi Jones
that is just scathing due to what I can only describe as "jew-baiting".
For me, it is deeply disturbing every time I listen to it, which was
probably part of Jones' intent, since his images from the piece are
certainly at times horrific. But the poem's ugliness is contrasted with
a hopeful ending (for me anyway). What are other people's opinions on
this piece? I've often wondered if it would be considered too
politically irresponsible for some.
...other great free drummers from the sixties are Milford Graves
and Andrew Cyrille. Check out Ayler's Impulse! stuff for the former and
Taylor's "Unit Structures" (on Blue Note) for the later.
....one last question: read in "Free Jazz" about an album that
features Coltrane playing with Cecil Taylor, called "Hard Driving Jazz".
Jost says it is a disaster, largely due to the non-communication between
Kenny Dorham and Taylor. Anybody heard this? Is it as bad as Jost says?
np: Sam Rivers Rivbea All-Star Orchestra "Inspiration" CD
nr: Edward Dahlberg "Bottom Dogs"
I remain....
Joseph
"You cannot deny the validity of all the beautiful things that have
happened in the past. And you cannot claim that the energies of the past
have no relationship to whatever you're engaged in now." Cecil Taylor
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #327
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