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Zorn List Digest         Friday, March 9 2001         Volume 03 : Number 323



In this issue:
-
       Re: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
       FW: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
       dizzy gillespie anecdote
       Re: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
       Re: mingus piano & neil young
       Re: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
       z-list/interaction
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       Re: z-list/interaction
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       Re: z-list/interaction
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       political & religious wholes
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       Re: evan parker with strings
       Re: evan parker with strings
       Re: evan parker with strings

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:18:25 +0100
From: "Ari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing

>From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>

> But the music itself does not, and cannot, be religious.

Ok, that's exactly what I thought. So I would like to repeat my first
question: can music in itself be political? Maybe the comparison was a bit
unfortunate, but still...

> Joseph Zitt wrote:
> Music can also be political in the way that it models different
> types of interpersonal interaction.The music of John Cage, Christian
> Wolff, Pauline Oliveros, and the Scratch Orchestra come most readily
> to mind.

Sounds interesting, but can you explain this a little more? Maybe a more
precise example?

Ari.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:24:02 +0100
From: "Ari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: FW: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing

>From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
>To: "Ari" <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing
>Date: vri, 9 maa 2001 16:16
>

>>Of course I'm not trying to say that music can't be political,
>> religious or
>> whatever.<<<
>
> Oh please say it. Please. Read Stravinsky's _The Poetics Of Music_.
>
I'll do that...:-)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:29:58 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: dizzy gillespie anecdote

<< Q:  Who's the better pianist, Anthony Braxton or Charles Gayle?
>> Dizzy Gillespie? >>

my major memory of diz is at merkin concert hall,
at steve turre's sanctified shells concert, where
diz was in the audience... i'll never forget his smile
and his red hat and amazing green leather boots....
and towards the end of this great gig, turre called him
up on stage, which diz didnt really wanna do, as he
was just sitting and grooving to the music.
when diz got up there to great applause, turre presented
him with what i think was the largest conch shell he had.
diz stared at it, shook his head, placed it down and reached
into his shirt pocket and took out a jaw harp,
played a 15 minute solo and tore the house down.

steve koenig
n.p.: the blue yusef lateef (label m/atlantic reissue)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:49:16 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing

On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 04:18:25PM +0100, Ari wrote:

> > Joseph Zitt wrote:
> > Music can also be political in the way that it models different
> > types of interpersonal interaction.The music of John Cage, Christian
> > Wolff, Pauline Oliveros, and the Scratch Orchestra come most readily
> > to mind.
>
> Sounds interesting, but can you explain this a little more? Maybe a more
> precise example?

As Cage said:

"I think one of the things that distinguishes music from the other arts
is that music often requires other people. The performance of music is
a public occasion or a social occasion. This brings it about that the
performance of a piece of music can be a metaphor of society, of how we
want society to be. Though we are not now living in a society which we
consider good, we could make a piece of music in which we are willing
to live. I don't mean that literally; I mean it metaphorically. You can
think of the piece of music as a representation of a society in which
you would be willing to live."

John Cage, I-VI, pp. 177-178 (punctuation added)

Much of Cage's works for ensembles work with the paradigm of groups of
people working together as equals, without a conductor. Similarly,
Pauline Oliveros's work emphasized the practice of "Deep Listening", in
situations where performers are equals, even to the point of reducing
the difference between performer and audience.

Chris Cutler has written well on how the conventional orchestra maps all
too well into the strict heirarchies and control structures of the
industrial workplace. Check out his book "File Under Popular", Eddie
Prevost's "No Sound is Innocent", Christian Wolff's collection of writings
and interviews (I don't have the title at hand), and John Cage's
"John Cage: Writer" (among other texts) for more on these issues.

n.p. Gray Code, "Gray Code for Five", live at Hartt College last week.
(I'm quite pleased with this, to say so myself.
http://www.metatronpress.com/mp3/gc022801/
)

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:49:41 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: mingus piano & neil young

I still say Don Cherry.

Never been more moved than
when hearing him play Monk
on an old upright, stage right,
at McCabe's Guitar Shop, Santa
Monica, on numerous
very fortunate occasions.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:52:39 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s/ religious blowing

"I don't mean that literally; I mean it metaphorically."

Important caveat.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:29:15 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: z-list/interaction

<<On Thu, Mar 08, 2001 at 11:39:06PM -0000, Bill Ashline wrote:
Music can also be political in the way that it models different
types of interpersonal interaction. The music of John Cage, Christian
Wolff, Pauline Oliveros, and the Scratch Orchestra come most readily
to mind.>>

and zorn's collabs and games, of course.
bill, you hit the nail on the head.
politics is nothing more or less than the way people in groups
interact, hence its significance, both musically and socially.
regards
steve koenig
n.p.: joe mcphee.mike kull. harold e smith- trinity- atavistic

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:34:15 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:02:34 +0100  "Ari" wrote:
>
>
> >From: Totor Jones <[e-mail]>
> >To: "Ari" <[e-mail]>
>
> >
> >>To be honest, I don't understand how _the music_ can be political?
> >
> > You = an idiot.
>
> I just asked a question! This kind of answer helps me a lot. Thanks for
> that...

Don't worry, that person might be the kind to wear a t-shirt with
something written on it and thinking that he is making a philosophical
statement :-).

But I have the impression that we are arguing without knowing what we really
mean... What does a sentence like "music can be political" mean?

    - music written in a political context
    - music conveying some political message
    - music written to defend a cause
    - music written using techniques that can be related to some
      political system (?)

Unless you use lyrics, I doubt that any music can convey any political
message (I will skip the hackneyed Stravinski quote). For a long time, the
only composer that was known to be really politically engaged was Luigi Nono.
Is it a coincidence that he wrote a lot of music with lyrics? I also fail to
see how music by itself can convey any political message (specially if you do
not pay attention to the title of the piece or the liner notes...).

When I was talking about politics and free jazz, I simply meant that the music
was created in a very strong political context and was more or less a tool
for political activism (political meetings would have free jazz players -- at
least in France). I never implied that the music was political by itself (I
am still not sure what such thing would mean), since I do not see how music
can convey any message by itself.

Yes, a lot of free jazz was "violent" and "aggressive", and as such could be
interpreted as trying to convey some political message. It is hard to listen
to Archie Shepp without knowing in which context a lot of this music was done/
performed. After all these years, the true urgency of the music is what really
is left. The political message is history and not necessary to appreciate
that music (although it does not hurt to do some homework).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:39:39 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 08:34:15AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Unless you use lyrics, I doubt that any music can convey any political
> message (I will skip the hackneyed Stravinski quote). For a long time, the
> only composer that was known to be really politically engaged was Luigi Nono.

Hmm. What time was that, and who thought of him as the only one?

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:51:19 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: z-list/interaction

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:29:15 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> and zorn's collabs and games, of course.
> bill, you hit the nail on the head.
> politics is nothing more or less than the way people in groups
> interact, hence its significance, both musically and socially.

In this case, since most human activities are with others, what is not
politics in our lives? Making love is politics? Having a nice dinner
with friends is politics? Taking care of a baby is politics?

Nice to see how the multi-dimensional complexity of the world can be
flatened out so easily...

    Patrice (embarrassed for having been in the dark for so long).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:59:00 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:39:39 -0600  Joseph Zitt wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 08:34:15AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > Unless you use lyrics, I doubt that any music can convey any political
> > message (I will skip the hackneyed Stravinski quote). For a long time, the
> > only composer that was known to be really politically engaged was Luigi Nono.
>
> Hmm. What time was that, and who thought of him as the only one?

In the 70's in almost every books on modern music (which meant exclusively classical
contemporary). Nono's political involvement was quite unique in the 50's (I am
talking of a consistent one), at least on the old continent side. Cardew and others
came later, in the 60's.

    Patrice (wondering what obscure composer on the baroque era Joseph is
        gonna come up with).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:05:17 -0600
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: z-list/interaction

On Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 08:51:19AM -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:29:15 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > and zorn's collabs and games, of course.
> > bill, you hit the nail on the head.
> > politics is nothing more or less than the way people in groups
> > interact, hence its significance, both musically and socially.
>
> In this case, since most human activities are with others, what is not
> politics in our lives? Making love is politics? Having a nice dinner
> with friends is politics? Taking care of a baby is politics?

Two's company, three's politics :-)

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:43:14 +0100
From: "Ari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

Patrice wrote:

> What does a sentence like "music can be political" mean?
>
>  - music written in a political context
>  - music conveying some political message
>  - music written to defend a cause
>  - music written using techniques that can be related to some
>    political system (?)

Well that was exactly my question! (so maybe you're an idiot too ;-)).

> Unless you use lyrics, I doubt that any music can convey any political
> message.

I agree, but others (Joseph, Bill, ... ?) seem to have another opinion; so
I'm trying to get the point of what they're saying.

np: Willem Breuker Kollektief - "Time is an empty bottle of wine" (Hunger!)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:00:07 -0000
From: "thomas chatterton" <[e-mail]>
Subject: political & religious wholes

A couple of points to add to this discussion:

I've seen Charles Gayle twice, the first being the knock-out spiritual
(religious?) experience, the second being a mixed one, since Gayle spent a
lot of the time playing piano (Mingus is definitely the best piano player!)
and bass clarinet. Now the third time he came, I gave it a pass, but those
who attended came away disappointed and confused since Gayle spend a lot of
time giving a reportedly offensive pro-Christian, anti-gay rap. Now, which
concert created music with a religious context?

By the very nature of the social and cultural milieu in which it was
created, Afro-American improvised music IS  political if only by association
& inference (since obviously before the '60s, the politics could not be
voiced!). Please remember that black slaves were only allowed to play brass
instruments after many years of being prohibited from playing their own
instruments, especially drums, which were rightly perceived as a danger by
the slave owners since drums were used for communication.  The 'New Thing'
was very much a voicing of what was happening at the time in the black
community, and although you might perceive it as a purely instrumental
sound, the sound of the horns was able to communicate emotional and even
political (anger!) feelings to those with the ears to hear.  In my opinion,
it was John Coltrane who took the music to the edge of the abyss(and
beyond!), and played an incredibly deep spiritual sound that embraced all
cultural and religious traditions. You could never say his music was
Christian, or Zen Buddhist, or Muslim, instead it was the 1000 faces of G_d
all inclusive. And so we find today there is the Church Of Saint John
Coltrane, using his music in a fairly strict religious context...

NP Eric Dolphy The Candid Years
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:03:00 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

What does a sentence like "music can be political" mean?


Perhaps we should define the terms 'music' and 'political'
and then see what we're really talking about.

And I would recommend the whole _Poetics of Music_ not
a hackneyed quote.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:41:31 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: evan parker with strings

a couple of quick responses to different e-mails on this topic:

<< so what is "insect music" anyway? >>

I can't recall where the term originated (anyone know?), but it refers to the
buzzing and chirping school of UK free improv, as exemplified by the SME.

<<I'd like to know from you the economics of releasing a three CD set at
about $35 (with the larger type cd case and mutli-paged booklet) versus a
single cd at maybe
$16. >>

can't help you much here, as I've never released or even priced a 3 CD set.
my guess would be that it costs roughly double that of a single disc. but my
point was that this material didn't justify a 3 CD set, as opposed to
something like the Iskra set, which does (in my never especially humble
opinion.)

<<I went to see Derek Bailey & Konk Pack (Thomas Lehn, Roger Turner
& Tim Hodgkinson) the other night, and while DB was his usual self, I wished
that any of the others had played a note longer than a 1/4 note in length.>>

yeah, I'm one of the larger Lehn fans in existence (he's the first musician
to appear on Erstwhile three times), but I was very disappointed by Konk Pack
live. to be fair, it was the night after the 24 hour MIMEO show, but I felt
like the relentless drumming of Turner didn't allow Lehn any room for
subtlety.

<<The other cliche in full effect was the "Nirvana" school of non-idiomatic
improv - here's a loud bit, now here's a quiet bit, followed by...a loud
bit!>>

personally, I like to refer to that as the John Zorn school of free improv.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:44:51 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: evan parker with strings

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:41:31 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> <<The other cliche in full effect was the "Nirvana" school of non-idiomatic
> improv - here's a loud bit, now here's a quiet bit, followed by...a loud
> bit!>>
>
> personally, I like to refer to that as the John Zorn school of free improv.

Jon, you have no pity :-).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:16:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: evan parker with strings

- --- [e-mail] wrote:
> <<The other cliche in full effect was the "Nirvana"
> school of non-idiomatic
> improv - here's a loud bit, now here's a quiet bit,
> followed by...a loud
> bit!>>
>
> personally, I like to refer to that as the John Zorn
> school of free improv.

Ow!  Shit!  Dogpile!

In some lecture referred to in some AMM liner notes,
Evan Parker contrasted "laminal" (i.e. AMM et al) with
"atomistic" improvisation (i.e. the
insect-improv'ers).  I'm under the impression that
Parker had some pretty sophisticated comments to
offer, but it would be nice to know if there some good
writing on the subject....anybody?  For my own
purposes, I've been calling the
laminal/layered/textural approach(es) to spontaneous
composition LONG-WAVE improv, indicating the arc of
events; the focus seems to shift from micro-structures
of events to macro-structures.  Some lister---was it
Brian?---was commenting on the Guy/Crispell/etc. show,
remarking on disappointment or annoyance at facile
interaction (not facile for mere mortals, but...), and
saying "AMM would never do _that_".  I think of that
(problem of) interaction as being a classic
micro-event situation; thinking of Cecil Taylor's
music as "long-wave" instead of just an incredibly
rapid sequence of events, occasionally overlapping
(which it is, as well), changed the way I perceived
what was happening.

I wish I had that Evan Parker lecture.  Evan Parker
does this quite a bit better than me.

- ----s

__________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #323
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