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Zorn List Digest        Thursday, March 8 2001        Volume 03 : Number 320



In this issue:
-
       Off subject: Serge Gainesbourg Box Set
       hole/ jazz in the 70s
       Re: Off subject: Serge Gainesbourg Box Set
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       Re: The hole in the 70s
       Subject: 70's re-issues and stuff
       In Praise of John Fahey
       hat art news
       Re: Off subject: Serge Gainesbourg Box Set
       A post bragging about cheap Serge Gainesbourg vinyl
       Misha Mengelberg 3 + Dave Douglas
       Re: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP 0590))

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed,  7 Mar 2001 13:14:54 -0500
From: "Steve Spangler" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Off subject: Serge Gainesbourg Box Set

There's a new Serge Gainesbourg box set--it's a french import--and it's 18 cd's. 16 studio records with bonus tracks and 2 cd's unreleased elsewhere. It looks to be everything the guy has done.

The question: Is this thing worth getting? It's $450.00 and I only have 1 cd--comic strip, which I enjoy--of his plus the Zorn tribute thing--Great Jewish Music. Will I love it all, or will there be 14 cd's of crap and 2 great cd's.

Any thought on this guy's entire catalogue would be appreciated.

Steve Spangler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:12:07 -0800
From: "Martin Wisckol" <[e-mail]>
Subject: hole/ jazz in the 70s

As someone who came into jazz in the 1970s, it didn't seem almost dead to
me. Mahavishnu and Weather Report and electric Miles were exciting, Art
Ensemble visited California (where I lived) frequently and released albums
on Atlantic and ECM, Anthony Braxton got a lot of press and a major
contract, Arista/Freedom was releasing stuff by other avants. Pablo was
releasing a lot of decent stuff from Dizzy and Joe Pass and Milt Jackson
and those cats. I heard gigs by Art Blakey and Pharoah and Mingus and
Rahsaan that blew my mind. There seems to be this rap about the '70s, but
it was a thrilling time for me in San Diego. A small college club, the
Backdoor, had an almost weekly run of big name jazz players for a while,
the La Jolla (later changed to San Diego) Jazz Festival brought Air and
Sun Ra and Old and New Dream and Ornette and their ilk to town for three
years of fests before gradually turning more commercial, and the
International Blend Coffee House brought big names to town weekly. Compare
all this to the past 15 years in San Diego, and I think the 7os might be
considered a relatively golden era.... Dexter and Steve Lacy and Mal
Waldron and most of those cats moved to Europe well before the 70s (and
despite opinions here to the contrary, I think Dexter's Homecoming LP with
Woddy Shaw on Columbia -- from the 70s -- absolutely rips, as good as
anything this side of his "Bikini")....

>"thomas chatterton"
wrote:

> it seemed like jazz did almost die in the '70s (in North America),
>mainly from corporate greed and neglect. By that time the labels main
>interest had become 'pop' music, and the only way many jazz artists could
>record was if they did albums of 'pop' tunes. Hence we find Chet Baker
>doing
>the Mariachi Brass, Joe Pass doing the Rolling Stones, etc. Many of the
>great players like Dexter Gordon, etc. were forced to relocate to Europe
>in
>order to continue playing


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:25:37 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Off subject: Serge Gainesbourg Box Set

On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:14:54 -0500  "Steve Spangler" wrote:
>
> There's a new Serge Gainesbourg box set--it's a french import--and it's 18
> cd's. 16 studio records with bonus tracks and 2 cd's unreleased elsewhere.
> It looks to be everything the guy has done.
>
> The question: Is this thing worth getting? It's $450.00 and I only have 1
> cd--comic strip, which I enjoy--of his plus the Zorn tribute thing--Great
> Jewish Music. Will I love it all, or will there be 14 cd's of crap and 2
> great cd's.

Nice to hear that your only problem with this set is:

    "Is this thing worth getting"

I would have thought that paying $450 could have been an issue...

A lot can be done with Gainsbourg without shelving $450. Get a 2xCD
compilation (or the 3 separate CD issued a couple years ago in France and
that are available in the US -- red, blue, yellow) to get a good overview
of the man. Since you have COMIC STRIP, get the two other CDs on Capitol
for a better overview of the 60's. Get MELODY NELSON, since it is considered
by many as his masterpiece. Then add a few more records to cover the 70's
and 80's (AUX ARMES, ET CETERA, etc). Total? No more $150 which means
plenty of money left to discover other artists.

But if you are willing to shelve $450 based on only two records (one not
even being with him) and the possible advice of a few people on the list,
then go for it. I am sure it is worwhile (specially that some records are
quite hard to find, not to mention in the US...) but only for 100% die
hards.

    Patrice (a big fan of Gainsbourg but not to the point of...).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:39:33
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

>In fact, it seemed like jazz did almost die in the '70s (in North America),
>mainly from corporate greed and neglect. By that time the labels main
>interest had become 'pop' music, and the only way many jazz artists could
>record was if they did albums of 'pop' tunes. Hence we find Chet Baker
>doing
>the Mariachi Brass, Joe Pass doing the Rolling Stones, etc. Many of the
>great players like Dexter Gordon, etc. were forced to relocate to Europe in
>order to continue playing.

But these are all older players who had been doing their thing for awhile.
It is too bad that this stuff happened, but if you were looking for signs of
"life" (as opposed to death) in jazz, I wouldn't go looking first for people
this far into their careers. Not that older players cannot/do not make great
music in many cases, obviously, but you would hope their would be some
younger players picking up the ball. You don't see the '30s declared a
failure because Jelly Morton was no longer tearing it up or at the peak of
his career (hmm....i could probably come up with a more lucid example
there).

>Some of the 'new' avantgarde players were fakers, and didn't really have
>the chops. Fans
>of the avant garde seemed to have no regard for the historical aspects of
>the genre, and by the latter part of the decade, it became extremely
>difficult to get many of the classic jazz recordings. Fortunately, the
>Europeans and the Japanese continued to  chronicle and support the music.

I am always intrigued by this term "fakers" and what it is supposed to mean,
exactly. I guess it would mean people who don't really have much to offer
but hide behind the premise of being experimental or avant-garde, to keep
people from trusting their gut reactions as to whether they like the music
or not?? I am curious -- was the situation really that bad as far as the
scene being overrun with such players? I always see people referring to
"fakes" but rarely with specific examples. Are these people talking about
ornette coleman, or albert ayler, or frank wright, or arthur doyle, or
someone nobody has ever heard of (or can't remember anyway?) I know you are
not talking about Ornette hear, but I just think about the interviews I have
read from the '60s, and exactly who these "fakes" were.

The other side of this coin is that of course there are plenty of people
with chops and proper schooling who may not have much to say either, which
may be more of an issue today than it was then.

>my mind, this is probably why the Ken Burns documentary stopped short! The
>'70s are a complete embarrassment for the history of jazz in North America,
>essentially the genre was forgotten, neglected and left to die...

My perspective is different b/c i wasn't really there, but i find that there
is plenty of great stuff that came out in the '70s. A. Braxton quartets,
Billy Harper's "black saint" (and other early black saint releases), Frank
Lowe, Air, AEC, Julius Hemphill's "Coon Bidness" and (based on what people
say, i STILL have not heard it) "Dogon A.D." Not to mention things happening
in Europe. Perhaps jazz was neglected, but it didn't die, which is why this
idea of it being "resurrected" by certain people is such a bummer.

On the subject of '70s reissues, one that i haven't seen mentioned that i
think is really great and that came out last year is Barry Altschul's 'You
Can't Name Your Own Tune' w/ Sam Rivers, George Lewis, MR Abrams, Dave
Holland. Plus, it's on 32 jazz so it's really cheap. (and its cover is a
good one, unlike some of that label's atrocities...).

WY
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 11:15:41 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

On Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:39:33  "William York" wrote:
>
> I am always intrigued by this term "fakers" and what it is supposed to mean,
> exactly. I guess it would mean people who don't really have much to offer
> but hide behind the premise of being experimental or avant-garde, to keep
> people from trusting their gut reactions as to whether they like the music
> or not?? I am curious -- was the situation really that bad as far as the
> scene being overrun with such players? I always see people referring to
> "fakes" but rarely with specific examples. Are these people talking about
> ornette coleman, or albert ayler, or frank wright, or arthur doyle, or

I know that many musicians consider(ed) these artists as fakers. There
is a infamous blindfold test of Francois Jeanneau, Texier, and Daniel Humair
by Serge Loupien in an early 80's issue of French magazine JAZZ MAGAZINE:
"Quand le trio trie".

I do not remember the exact phrasing, but you can quickly grasp in what low
estime they put many free jazz players (Humair wrote, for example, that
Steve McCall "Joue comme une pince", which practically means does not know
how to play). You don't have to be very cynical to assume that what these
musicians said was what many other thought... And a lot of amateurs thought
the same.

As far as the "fakers" are concerned, we should not forget that free jazz was
very politicized in the 60's, to the point that free jazz became an element
of political activism. As a result, yes, some not very talented people
decided to express themselves by playing free. Fortunately we have forgotten
them.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 14:21:52 -0500
From: Bob Sweet <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

Ken Waxman wrote:

>It's usually the conservative types who
> pronounce jazz dead at --pick date -- 1931, 1945,
> 1961, 1970.

This makes me think of the Future of Music Coalition, the existence of
which seems to presuppose that there is a possibility that music might
not have a future, which is absurd. As long as people breathe, there
will be music. As long as people have breathed there have been
improvisational traditions in music. In the big, historical picture of
improvising traditions, we see a little slice of about six or seven
decades in which there was a peculiarly American improvising tradition,
which had the handle "jazz" hung on it. Problem is, along about the end
of the seventh decade, the innovators had brought in so many other
influences that it ceased to be American. You could ask Don Cherry about
this if he were still with us. You can still ask Yusef Lateef.

Bob Sweet
[e-mail]
http://www.arborville.com
read Music Universe, Music Mind
subscribe to CMS Update

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:31:57 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s

>
>I do not remember the exact phrasing, but you can quickly grasp in what low
>estime they put many free jazz players (Humair wrote, for example, that
>Steve McCall "Joue comme une pince", which practically means does not know
>how to play). You don't have to be very cynical to assume that what these
>musicians said was what many other thought... And a lot of amateurs thought
>the same.

    The same Daniel Humair who recorded with Sharrock?  I wonder
what he thought of Sonny's playing. ;-)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:15:18 -0500
From: "Alan Kayser" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Subject: 70's re-issues and stuff

Matt Mitchell wrote:

>BTW, I'd just thought I'd ask if anyone else besides me thinks that the
> >Iskra 1903 set is ridiculously great?

I'll second that, and in fact included same in my top ten ( cheating ) box
sets list. Astounding improvised music for open ears.

>Also, how is the new Evan Parker-produced strings album on Emanem?  >Anyone
>heard it?


I'd say anyone who is into ISKRA 1903 will certainly need to buy Strings
With Evan Parker.  As is stated in the liner notes, this recording is from
the AMM-SME school of music.  I am reminded more of AMM than SME, but you
get the idea if you are familiar with either.  There are sections of plucked
strings, bowed strings, percussive strings, and a much more subdued Parker
than long time fans may be used to.  The three sides are almost like one
extended work.  Electronics are held to a minimum, but at times there is a
hint of a non-acoustic rhythm section.  AS with AMM, identifying who is
doing what is almost impossible.  I find this much more rewarding listening
than Parker's Electro-ECM outings.  Also makes an interesting contrast to
the recent re-issue on Atavistic of the Schlippenbach-Parker-Lovens from
1975 (the title of which escapes me).  On the earlier work Parker astounds
with a bombardment of notes, as the music hovers on the edge of chaos.
Thrillingly so, I might add.  Here Parker at times blends in so tightly with
the strings that one must listen ever so closely to identify the sound.  How
un-Parker like!

Buy it, you'll like it. Got mine from Downtown Music Gallery. $35. Thanks
Bruce!

...
>Thanks,

>- -Matt Mitchell

Alan E. Kayser



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:25:08 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: In Praise of John Fahey

Nels Cline's tribute:
http://www.nelscline.com/fahey.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 00:11:43 -0500
From: "Steve Smith" <[e-mail]>
Subject: hat art news

Zornians:

For those like Rrrrrrrrrrick Lopez who have been desperately trying to find
a copy of Anthony Braxton's 'Quartet (Dortmund) 1976' on hat Art, good news.
Forget eBay and don't spend mad cash.  There's a reissue in the pipeline on
hatOLOGY.  Apparently 'Quartet (Willisau) 1979' will also be reissued, that
one being Brax with Ray Anderson, John Lindberg and Thurman Barker, also
lovely though not quite so earth-shaking as Dortmund.

As for Zorn content, 'Cobra' is up for reissue as well.  This will be the
third or fourth edition of that recording, but now it's marked as
"remastered" as well.  Cecil Taylor's 'It Is In the Brewing Luminous' is
scheduled for April, and Sun Ra's 'Sunrise in Different Dimensions,' Albert
Ayler's 'Lorrach/Paris 1966' and Myra Melford's 'Alive in the House of
Saints' are also on the list.

All this and more (including some cool new releases as well) are detailed on
the hat Art site, www.hathut.com.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Sven-Ake Johansson, "rasche achtel," 'Six Little Pieces for Quintet'
(hatOLOGY) - no, not a coincidence...
(sick to pieces that Eric Singer is wearing the Catman makeup and costume in
Japan and Australia... even dyed his hair dark...)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:05:18 -0800
From: Tosh <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Off subject: Serge Gainesbourg Box Set

I think Dusty Groove America is offering the package for around $200.  So I
would shop around.  If you have seen my website you would know that I am a
huge Gainsbourg fan.

I think the two additional CD's in the package would be worth finding
(outtakes & Demos) but you can also find these CD's sold individually.
Personally I am blinded that Gainsbourg is a genius and one must have
everything.  But Patrice is probably more correct (as usual).

But listening to Gainsbourg is perhaps the most enjoyable activity one can
do.  And of course it might be the effect of the Sake I am drinking right
now.


- --
Tosh Berman
TamTam Books
http://www.tamtambooks.com



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:34:49 -0500
From: "Jesse Kontny" <[e-mail]>
Subject: A post bragging about cheap Serge Gainesbourg vinyl

I just found L'Homme A Tete De Chou on mint vinyl at the salvation army for
50 cents....
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tosh" <[e-mail]>
To: "Zorn Lst Postings" <[e-mail]>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: Off subject: Serge Gainesbourg Box Set


> I think Dusty Groove America is offering the package for around $200.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:19:47 +0100 (MET)
From: Emmanouil Papagiannakis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Misha Mengelberg 3 + Dave Douglas

Hi

I went all the way to Antwerpen last
night to see MM3 (MM, JBaron, GCohen) + DD...

Being a fan of all in several of their groupings,
and after having experienced all of them live a few
times in the past, I had great expectations from this
show...
The show was at the Singel a big cultural complex, not
really cozy but ok anyway, in a relatively big hall,
not really suited for an unplugged acoustic performance
like this one. Almost full anyway. It was the least
adventurous of any other time I saw this people (not in this
combination anyway). Very soft and classic, sweet and
smooth flow, standard and old timer. well performed
of course, but lacking the power that I had expected or
the twisted dissonance of Misha's free playing and
the telepathic improvisation of the quasi-Masada group.
Of course I am sure that this was their goal to play
standard easy going jazz, but as my girlfriend pointed out
(prior to the concert I feared she would find it too
free or non-sense) it was basically music suited for a
restaurant... The playing was of course good, but the
moments that they cought fire were one or two...

I am going to check them out again at the BIMHUIS this weekend
where they play twice this weekend with Michael Moore and
Lee Konitz replacing DD. I hope I can give a better report
from there...

manolis

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:10:42 +0100
From: "Francesco Martinelli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The hole in the 70s (was: Irene Schweizer Trio- Early Tapes (FMP 0590))

> Well, in recent years we've started to see a change in this, at least
where
> Incus is concerned.  Emanem got to reissue the Iskra 1903 material,
Dexter's
> Cigar reissued 'Aida,' and Organ of Corti packaged the 'Incus Taps.'

This is concerning only half on Incus, if you get my drift.....
Two of Evan's solos, from the Incus catalogue, were also reissued by
Chonoscope which however moves quite slowly.


> Of course, in some cases we're also contending with the diappearance of
> original source material.  What small reissue label wouldn't sell its
> collective soul to reissue 'The Topography of the Lungs,' which Bailey has
> reported lost forever?

There's an agreement (I don't know about gentlemen though) and I do not
think it includes reissue of that.
Has anybody seen the program of the Emanem/Matchless festival in May?
London's calling!
Francesco


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #320
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