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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, January 9 2001       Volume 03 : Number 237



In this issue:
-
       Two things I do not understand (Bailey, Moore)
       Re: Ken Burns
       Re: Two things I do not understand (Bailey, Moore)
       Burn the Smithsonian as well...
       OT:  The Stylophone
       Re: Two things I do not understand (Bailey, Moore)
       Re: burn Burns, with style
       Re: Ken Burns
       Re: Ken Burns
       Re: OT:  The Stylophone
       shows in vt or nh?
       Re: Ken Burns
       Re: Ken Burns
       Re: Two things I do not understand (Bailey, Moore)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 13:53:07 -0500
From: David Keffer <[e-mail]>
Subject: Two things I do not understand (Bailey, Moore)

Here are two unrelated musical ideas I do not understand.  Perhaps others
on the Zorn list have some insight into these.

1.
A while back, while reading the www.fe.org blurb on Derek Bailey's cd
"String Theory" on Paratactile, I ran into the phrase "whole sound" and
queried the list about it.  I got some good replies.  As a follow up, I
eventually purchased and listened to this cd and this is my new question,
"What is the point of having the world-renown master of non-idiomatic
improvisational guitar record a feedback album?"  Absolutely the dullest DB
album I have ever heard (although I have by no means heard them all).  This
is the only DB record I have heard where there is no sense of it being DB
on guitar.  Can you imagine a DB album where you cannot even tell that it
is DB playing?  Did somebody on the list find something to listen to in
this cd that I did not?

2.
Recently read the blurb on the new Christian Marclay, Thurston Moore, and
Lee Ranaldo cd, "Fuck Shit Up" on Victo. Excerpt follows:  "Feedback rose
and fell in heaving crescendos, drum sticks were inserted between strings,
and for an hour and change, a wall of beautiful noise was erected, then
smashed to bits, with no pesky backbeats or melodies to upset mesmeric
abandon."  Hmm.  So no rhythm and no melody and pretentiously proud of it.
Am I the only one to whom this advertisement screams:  "If you didn't like
Borbetomagus ten years ago...stay away!"?  I know I ought not to judge a
book by its cover but that is exactly what I am reduced to in this case.
Has anyone ever heard a good Thurston Moore improv album?  I can dig a lot
of Sonic Youth (e.g. Washing Machine) but Moore's Klangfarbenmelodie with
Tom Surgal was to me uninspired at best.  The MMMR disc with Loren
Mazzacane Connors, Thurston Moore, Lee Ranaldo & Jean-Marc Montera induced
only one emotion:  the wish that Loren Mazzacane Connors was playing by
himself (or maybe with Haino instead, heh heh heh).

David "ordinarily a fan of DB and T. Moore" K.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:47:27 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Ken Burns

In a message dated 1/9/01 1:03:13 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< You have to stop somewhere, right? >>

sure, so why not make it 1965? if he had just called it "Jazz: 1900-1965" and
dropped the final episode, I think he'd be catching much less flak from
aficionados.

I do have a question for anyone who saw Burns' Baseball documentary. I've
read that he treated baseball in the same way as jazz, as a historical
subject. but what does this actually mean? did he talk about Jackie Robinson?
did he make it as far as Babe Ruth? was Honus Wagner cited as the
prototypical modern player? just curious.

and I don't know if I was the one who recommended Mingus At Antibes, although
it's the one I always suggest starting with. some other great ones from the
same time period are Blues and Roots, New Tijuana Moods, Oh Yeah, Mingus Ah
Um, and Mingus Dynasty. I was never as big a fan of The Black Saint and The
Sinner Lady as these others. Mingus is definitely better experienced through
entire original albums, rather than on a compilation.

personally, I didn't see much of part 1. every time I turned it on, Wynton
was pretending to be a historian, so I switched back to a live form of
improvisation, basketball.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:07:11 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Two things I do not understand (Bailey, Moore)

On Tue, 09 Jan 2001 13:53:07 -0500  David Keffer wrote:
>
> 2.
> Recently read the blurb on the new Christian Marclay, Thurston Moore, and
> Lee Ranaldo cd, "Fuck Shit Up" on Victo. Excerpt follows:  "Feedback rose

I was at the show and found it quite dull and uninspired... I did not feel
that anything was happening. Moore and Ranaldo made they patented noise,
and Marclay did his thing.

I would be curious to hear what people think of the record after a few
listenings.

> and fell in heaving crescendos, drum sticks were inserted between strings,
> and for an hour and change, a wall of beautiful noise was erected, then
> smashed to bits, with no pesky backbeats or melodies to upset mesmeric
> abandon."  Hmm.  So no rhythm and no melody and pretentiously proud of it.
> Am I the only one to whom this advertisement screams:  "If you didn't like
> Borbetomagus ten years ago...stay away!"?  I know I ought not to judge a
> book by its cover but that is exactly what I am reduced to in this case.
> Has anyone ever heard a good Thurston Moore improv album?

I personaly can't remember of any (but I have stopped jumping on them).
But it is one of these situations where you are in either camp: you
like them all (because, that's my guess, if you start to question one, you
take the risk of having to reconsider all of them, and there might be few
that pass the test), or you can survive without any.

I feel a little bit like you and the "good-at-everything" reputation of some
artists is getting annoying.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 14:26:05 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Burn the Smithsonian as well...

Joseph Zitt wrote:

> Yeah, the Smithsonian set was great -- it was what turned me on to
> Coltrane, Ornette, and Cecil Taylor. (Odd that I don't remember the
> earlier material at all, and that I remember hearing the Art Ensemble
> of Chicago on it, who according to a check of the track listing weren't
> actually there.)

Yes, it's brilliant in what it chooses to cover, especially the early stuff.
It's a valuable tool and the basis of most beginning jazz history courses.  But
remember that when the set was updated for CD in 1991, it suffered from exactly
the same problem that has marred Burns' gameplan: an intentional myopia about
contemporary musical trends since Coltrane, Ornette and Taylor.

The original LP box concludes its chronology with Ornette's "Lonely Woman" and
"Congeniality" (from 'The Shape of Jazz to Come,' 1959) and a segment from "Free
Jazz" (1960), Coltrane's "Alabama" (from 'Live at Birdland, 1963) and Taylor's
"Enter Evening" (from 'Unit Structures,' 1966).  This is all reasonable, perhaps,
though I'd argue that the omission of Albert Ayler is glaring and obvious - the
music that he and his followers made is not entirely predicated by the one lone
Coltrane cut.  I'd also argue that a fragment of "Free Jazz" is not especially
helpful - to understand the structure and logic of the piece, it's vital to hear
the whole thing.  I remember the instructor in a pathetic jazz class I took in
college playing that track and all the slackers and cheerleaders in the class
tittering about the chaotic noise.  The instructor actually joined in the
jeering.  I was moved to speak up and explain the concept and structure of the
piece and argue that an excerpt couldn't suffice (yes, I was already a preachy
loudmouth in 1987).

By the time the set was transfered to CD, many years had passed, obviously.
Numerous styles and schools of music had arisen.  But does the updated box
reflect this?  No.  It adds one track only: the World Saxophone Quartet's
"Steppin'" (from 'Steppin' with the WSQ,' 1978).

No 'Meditations' or 'Interstellar Space.'  No 'Bitches Brew.'  No Mahavishnu,
Weather Report, Return to Forever, or Headhunters.  No Braxton, Threadgill or Art
Ensemble.  No 'Dancing in Your Head.'  No representation of the Rivbea loft
scene.  No ECM - Metheny, Jarrett, etc., etc.  No John Carter, whose majestic
'Roots and Folklore' series was complete by '89.  No representation of the
composer/leaders of the '80s such as James Newton and Anthony Davis, who created
a new kind of "third stream" and have since virtually disappeared - one track
from 'I've Known Rivers' would have sufficed.  (It's a bit ironic to me that
Jonathan F. P. Rose, who documented Carter, Newton and Davis and so much other
vital jazz of the '80s on his Gramavision label, is now one of the heads of Jazz
at Lincoln Center.)  No Wynton Marsalis.  While I don't love all of the above
equally, I do feel strongly that they should all have been represented in the
update.

Perhaps it was forgivable to stop short of the burgeoning Downtown scene since it
was still forming and nobody knew what the most important stuff would be from a
historical perspective - and no, I'm not stumping for inclusion of Zorn, as he's
pretty clearly NOT a jazz musician primarily.  I suppose the omission of
Europeans is intentional, though you get into some trouble there, as well -
Europeans have been making vital contributions to jazz as far back as Django and
the Hot Club, and the British, German and Dutch schools of free improv and
post-modernism are all incredibly important.  And, like Burns supposedly, the box
overlooks Latin jazz as well.

I enjoyed the Smithsonian box when I was learning the music, and it's still a
great place to start.  But by not updating the set to reflect the late '60s, '70s
and '80s, after a certain point it becomes a liability.  Judging from last
night's episode, the same could be said for the Burns film.  It was beautiful for
what it was - though I found Wynton's affectations annoying in the extreme and
nearly wet myself listening to Stanley Crouch avoiding an honest explanation of
what "Jelly Roll" actually meant.  And if a few more people get turned on to
jazz, fine.  But as scholar Scott DeVeaux said in the Sunday New York Times (one
of a group of fascinating testimonials from experts ranging from Lorraine Gordon
to Joe Lovano to Jason Moran and even Michael Dorf), in framing the music in such
a way that the only significant things to happen since 1964 are Dexter Gordon's
return from Europe and the ascendance of Marsalis's neo-conservatism, well, then
perhaps you're going to sell some CDs but you are NOT going to move people into
the clubs to hear live jazz made by living musicians.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Ornette Coleman, "Eventually," 'Beauty Is a Rare Thing: The Complete
Atlantic Recordings' (Rhino)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 14:39:30 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: OT:  The Stylophone

Is anyone here familiar with this instrument, and possibly artists that have
experimented with it in the past?

Thanks

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 20:55:16 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Bjoern Dirlack)
Subject: Re: Two things I do not understand (Bailey, Moore)

> 1.
> Derek Bailey's cd "String Theory" on Paratactile
> Absolutely the dullest DB album I have ever heard (although I have by no means
> heard them all).
> This is the only DB record I have heard where there is no sense of it being DB
> on guitar.  Can you imagine a DB album where you cannot even tell that it
> is DB playing?  Did somebody on the list find something to listen to in
> this cd that I did not?

Unfortunately my dealer didn┤t supply it so far.
On all my DB records (about 70) he don┤t play like in your description.
But in the last time I was sometimes disappointed ("Mirakle" on Tzadik).

> 2.
> Has anyone ever heard a good Thurston Moore improv album?

A really lovely guitar album is "Please Just Leave Me (my Paul Desmond)"
on Pure.
TM uses some feedback within a tender structure. The cd culminates in ........
(Well - you MUST buy it yourself!)


Bjoern.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 14:55:53 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: burn Burns, with style

Nils wrote:

> i find these two articles make a nice complement to the
> thorough ass-kissing that the music reviewers delivered
> when reflecting upon the soundtrack to this series.

I suppose there has indeed been some ass-kissing going on, but there's a pretty
devastating slam of the film in the Chicago Tribune today:

http://chicagotribune.com/leisure/artsandentertainment/printedition/article/0,2669,SAV-0101070351,FF.html

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - Jacky Terrasson, "A Paris," 'A Paris...' (Blue Note)




- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:11:52 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ken Burns

>>>4) The inevitable argument that I have come to appreciate: since
jazz
accounts for about 2% of all record stores, anything that gets people
to buy
albums from Armstrong through Davis is a good thing.<<<

Where is Chick Corea when we need him?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:14:18 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ken Burns

>>>personally, I didn't see much of part 1. every time I turned it on,
Wynton
was pretending to be a historian<<<

Every time I turned it on he was talking about jazz's connections with
prostitution, i.e., he was doing what he does best.....pimp.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 15:46:43 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Benjamin Pequet)
Subject: Re: OT:  The Stylophone

At 02:39 PM 1/9/01 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>artists that have
>experimented with it in the past?

Kraftwerk (Pocket Calculator)
David Bowie (Space Odyssey)
Rolf Harris
Rick Wakeman
Pulp
Belle and Sebastian

Sampled stylophone :

Orbital <<  the new single had been made entirely of Stylophone samples >>
http://www.nme.com/NME/External/News/News_Story/0,1004,560,00.html
Stylophone Skinny << a short-lived project based entirely around the
concept of making a mutant form of drum 'n' bass out of sampled stylophone
sounds by ex-pelt/yoghurt belly members Tim (Boswell) and Mark (Watson) >>
http://www.noisebox.co.uk/band_stylo.htm

Links :

"The stylophone website"
http://www.stylophone.fsnet.co.uk/

Stylophone for VST simulation (PC only)
http://membres.tripod.fr/SoundsManiacs/
downloadable there http://209.211.248.205/software/vstplugs/p19.cfm






- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 13:52:58 -0800 (PST)
From: jason tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: shows in vt or nh?

I recently moved to vt, any advice on venues and musicians? Burlington
is my first bet, or nothampton. Two weeks out of nyc and I am itching
to see some live groups. Thanks in advance.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
http://photos.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 17:01:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ken Burns

- --- [e-mail] wrote:
> Hi all,

> 1) While I agree that the series is deficient on the
> last forty years but I can only imagine the problems
inherent in ending a 17 hour film with a few more
hours on fuzak, improv, noise, and cross polination
stuff
> like M-Base or even Zorn. History is still being
> written, and Burns indicated he would like to come
back to this film a few years down the line.

Sigh, here we go. Yes history is still being written
and rewritten and altered. But it doesn't change the
fact that Burns encapsulated 40 years of jazz history
- -- i.e. 2/5 ths of its existence into his final
program.

Burns series and myriad tie-ins:
books--DVDs--CDs--comic books--bubble gum etc.could
essentially have been done in 1960 or 1970. To assert
that Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman, to name two,
haven't had as important an influence on jazz since
1960 as Ellington, Bird nd Louis did beforehand is to
fit the facts to the thesis.

4) The inevitable argument that I have come to
> appreciate: since jazz accounts for about 2% of all
record stores, anything that gets people to buy
> albums from Armstrong through Davis is a good thing.
> Jazz best-ofs are questionable, but at least Burns
was able to combine catalogs for more definitive
samplers.If Jazz leads just a handfulof people into a
lifetime of appreciation for the form then I have no
real complaints. I mean,how could anyone enjoy a
> one-disc Armstrong and not want to buy the Complete
> Hot 5s and Hot 7s? Ken told me he's bought about a
dozen of them himself for friends.

That old canard. No, the same handful of people would
get into some form of jazz, whether it be Masada,
Lester Young, the Dukes of Dixieland or Dexter Gordon
with or without Burns. Most of us managed to do it.

For years I've heard the argument that people who hear
Chuck Mangione or Weather Report or The Crusaders or
Glen Miller or Al Jarreau or John Klemmer etc. etc.
will then be drawn to the "real thing". Tain't so.

For every one person who investigates the form more
deeply, nine others will stick to what they first
heard. Why do you think the record companies have
welcomed Burns with open arms -- it's a chance to sell
more of their catalogue.

I'd be surprised if many of the people turned on by
the Armstrong anthology buy the Hot 5s. They've
already filled up the early jazz niche in their
collections, haven't they? And what if the folks who
pick up the Coltrane set stumble on Ascension or
Meditations? One listen and most likely they'll be
dragging the CDs be back to the store for a new Kenny
G disk.

Most of us don't begrudge Burns (and by extension
Marsalis) his take on the music. It's just that this
"event" makes it the definitive view of jazz.

If half the money and publicity that is going into the
series went to a living jazz musician ...

Ken Waxman

_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 16:28:10 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Ken Burns

On Tue, Jan 09, 2001 at 05:01:28PM -0500, Ken Waxman wrote:

> If half the money and publicity that is going into the
> series went to a living jazz musician ...

Does anyone happen to know what the budget for the project actually
was?

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 17:46:49 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Two things I do not understand (Bailey, Moore)

David Keffer wrote:

>  Did somebody on the list find something to listen to in
> this cd that I did not?

fwiw, I'm also not too crazy about this one. A couple of the tracks have
a nice delicacy about them, very similar to what he often does (for
short durations) during his live shows. But much of the rest of it
strikes me as...just feedback and the tracks with Vanessa Mackness sound
like unsuccessful stabs at a Lucier-like experiment.

>  I know I ought not to judge a
> book by its cover but that is exactly what I am reduced to in this case.

Like Patrice, I didn't think the show was anything special (though not
revoltingly bad, either). I give Moore credit for exposing outside rock
fans to other types of music, but I've never heard anything of his that
made me want to run out and buy it. At the show in question, younger
members of the audience seemed thrilled when Marclay began shattering
vinyl against the mic, etc. All for the good if it breaks down some
psychic wall on what music is, I suppose, but a little tired if you've
been around the block once or twice.

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #237
*******************************


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