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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #150
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, November 1 2000 Volume 03 : Number 150
In this issue:
-
Re: books on musique concrete
Re: books on musique concrete
last night's Stilluppsteypa/TV Pow show
musique concrΦte [2] (and French, and nostalgia)
Re: books on musique concrete
Re: books on musique concrete
Re: Godard ---no zorn
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_musique_concr=E8te_[2]_(and_French,_and_?= nostalgia)
Zorn life
Bowie goes ...
Re: Bowie goes ...
Re: books on musique concrete
Re: books on musique concrete
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:48:51 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: books on musique concrete
On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:14:17 -0500 "Caleb T. Deupree" wrote:
>
> At 09:23 AM 10/31/00 -0800, Scott Handley wrote:
> >
> >I know there was a thread earlier this year about
> >"favorite concrΦte records," so I might not open that
> >can of worms, but...what _is_ happening with concrΦte
> >today? (Or over these past 20 years?)
>
> I've been thinking about this as part of a forthcoming article, and it
> seems to me like concrΦte went into a decline in the late 1960s, when the
It went into decline because its definition was too restrictive (what you
could use and what you should not), and people realized quickly (in the
late 50's) that musique concrete was a subset of something more general:
electroacoustic music.
> early adopters moved on to other areas. This would include Stockhausen
> (who moved into live electronics and then the big buildup to the Opera),
I know that Stockhausen went to the Studio d'Essais de la RTF when he was a
student of Messiaen in the early 50's. I am pretty sure that he wrote
his "musique concrete" piece (like everybody -- Boulez, Messiaen). I
don't remember having ever heard of a recording of it.
Anyway, back in Koln, he joined Herbert Heimert and his studio dedicated
to the new electronic music. Fortunately, there are recordings of what
he did there.
> Nono (who also moved into more live encounters), etc. The only ones who
> kept going in the 70s and early 80s were the French, mostly the INA-GRM and
> their relatives (not too surprisingly, since that institute was founded by
> Henry). It didn't get the visibility or support that IRCAM did, and
> IRCAM's focus was very different from straight electroacoustic. But it
People still wonder what is the use and achievements of IRCAM... Besides,
of course, being a vehicle for Boulez' ego.
> I paid more attention to Stockhausen than the French, so my take is colored
> from that perspective (my copy of Schaeffer's book is on order).
> Stockhausen and artists from the German side were trying to synthesize
> sounds electronically. KS's first two electronic studies were based on
> acoustic studies of overtones, and he was trying to combine overtones in
> such a way to create interesting sounds (and using serial techniques to do
> so). Henry and the French found their sound sources in the real world, not
> through electronic generation. Maybe in the couple of years following
> WWII, there was a natural antipathy between the French and Germans which
> contributed to the hostility. Anyway, as Patrice mentioned, eventually the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't remember hearing of such hostility. Many German composers stopped
by the Studio d'Essais and produced oeuvres using the fresh new technique.
More important would be the harsh criticism that Boulez threw on the
whole musique concrete after a short stay there. Knowing the respect (often
based on intimidation) that Boulez gathered in the late '50s, any critic
from him was equal to a death penalty. For him musique concrete was not
serious (in fact like any other genres of music except his own).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 19:31:31 -0500
From: Perfect Sound Forever <perfect-sound@furious.com>
Subject: Re: books on musique concrete
- --=====================_41646829==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:23:25, Scott Handley <thesubtlebody@yahoo.com> wrote:=
=20
>
> And
> briefly, for those of us who aren't WIRE'ed, what was
> the struggle between early electronic composers and
> adherents to musique concr=E8te? Did it boil down to
> dogma, to sound sources?
Yes, yes and the ever-present eternal factors of ego, localized pride (i.e.
Cologne, Paris) and such. It's all a rich tapestry.
Best,
Jason
Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
perfect-sound@furious.com
http://www.furious.com/perfect=20
- --=====================_41646829==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html>
On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 09:23:25, Scott Handley
<thesubtlebody@yahoo.com> wrote: <br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite cite>And<br>
briefly, for those of us who aren't WIRE'ed, what was<br>
the struggle between early electronic composers and<br>
adherents to musique concr=E8te? Did it boil down to<br>
dogma, to sound sources?</blockquote><br>
Yes, yes and the ever-present eternal factors of ego, localized pride
(i.e. Cologne, Paris) and such. It's all a rich tapestry.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Jason<br>
<br>
<div>Perfect Sound Forever</div>
<div>online music magazine</div>
<div>perfect-sound@furious.com</div>
<a href=3D"http://www.furious.com/perfect"=
EUDORA=3DAUTOURL>http://www.furious.com/perfect</a>
</html>
- --=====================_41646829==_.ALT--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 20:52:58 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: last night's Stilluppsteypa/TV Pow show
thought I'd send a brief report in on this, for interested parties.
Stilluppsteypa and TV Pow are two laptop trios, from Iceland and Chicago
respectively. last night at Tonic, they performed separately, then all six
musicians combined for a short third set, their debut performance together.
the sets were quite interesting in juxtaposition, at least for me. TV Pow
played first, and they come from an improv background, so their set was
fairly linear. what I mean is that while they covered quite a bit of range,
there was always some degree of continuity throughout the set. Stilluppsteypa
(pronounced Stilt-up-stay-pa) focused more on connecting different segments
and stretches, with more of a jump cut approach. some of the stretches and
sounds they produced were superb. the combined set brought together the
strengths of both groups, despite only lasting 10 or 15 minutes. the linear
flow of TV Pow combined with the superb soundmaking ability of Stilluppsteypa
to produce some very impressive music. what I especially enjoyed was that
despite six musicians being onstage at once, and it being their first
performance together, there were stretches that were very minimal, and not
everyone felt like they had to be contributing all the time.
disclaimer: I'm releasing a collaborative CD by these two bands, which
they're recording next weekend in Chicago, at the end of their brief US tour.
and I set up this show.
rest of the tour:
11/1, Washington DC @ Museum Of Contemporary Art DC w/87 Central
www.dc.net/vertical/MOCA.html
11/2, Pittsburgh, PA @ Millvale Industrial Theater w/Pineal Ventana,
Powder French www.mit.telerama.com
11/3, Detroit, MI @ Detroit Contemporary -
www.detroitcontemporary.com
11/4, Cleveland, OH @ Speak in Tongues - www.speakintongues.com
11/5, Chicago, IL @ Deadtech w/Illusion of Safety - www.deadtech.net
I'd love to hear any other opinions on this show, good or bad. it was quite
well attended, which I was very happy about.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:34:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Handley <thesubtlebody@yahoo.com>
Subject: musique concrΦte [2] (and French, and nostalgia)
Thanks for insightful responses. I don't want to be
terribly OT (even O _this_ T!) but in an extensive
interview (from 1995, mind you), Jim O'Rourke---who
might be consider a "younger" artist working with, or
at least coming out of, M.C.---makes a provocative
statement:
"...musique concrΘte is one of the few genres that's
so inexorably tied to a certain school of thought, the
French school of thought. As an American growing up,
listening to and being interested in musique concrete,
I had no actual history, nothing to relate to
aesthetically. There's no American history of musique
concrete. American and French aesthetics are not the
same. So I had to deal with the question of a medium
where the signifiers are so tightly tied to one way of
thinking...Luc Ferrari's really the only composer of
the original French musique concrete school who
started dealing with what the sounds meant. The others
wanted to avoid that, to take the sounds and move them
into the abstract....'Rules of Reduction' [an early
O'Rourke composition for tape] sounds French, but what
happens within the piece is very anti-French. I got
into really big trouble when they premiered it in
Paris. In France there's 'l'image', the idea of taking
the sounds and removing them out of everyday reality
into some sort of fantasy. Every single time in my
piece that the sounds try to do that, I counteract it.
Like when the saxophones come out of the car horn,
which is a classic musique concréte technique, I
completely cut it cold. The piece eventually gives up,
with this piano crap at the end. Every time there's a
sense of reverie and nostalgia, another common thing
in musique concrΘte, it never gets there, it's just a
series of dead ends...Aesthetically it's very
non-French, but with musique concrΘte you can't help
but sound French, that's the history of it, you can't
deny it. It shapes how people will perceive it."
This portion excerpted from:
http://www.hyperreal.org/intersection/zines/est/intervs/orourke.html
(Interview conducted by Brian Duguid, for EST)
Are these assertions at all correct? (This excerpt
came to mind when I was reading list members' comments
on national tendencies toward the form [?], practices
and their [motivating] dogmas, and the waxing and
waning of scenes/practices. Hope it's relevant.) I'm
less interested in the O'Rourke connection per se than
whether he's touched on something important.
- -----s
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer.
http://experts.yahoo.com/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:43:14 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <newgrange@sfo.com>
Subject: Re: books on musique concrete
"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>
> People still wonder what is the use and achievements of IRCAM... Besides,
> of course, being a vehicle for Boulez' ego.
Um, creating MAX would be high on my list ...
- --
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com
"The trouble with writing stirring manifestos is that one has
to read them years later and ponder where things went wrong."
-- Jaxon
np: V/A, _Au Bal Antillais: Creole Biguines from Martinique_
nr: Charles Williams, _The Greater Trumps_
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:45:12 +0100
From: "Sen" <sen@chello.be>
Subject: Re: books on musique concrete
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
To: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Cc: "Scott Handley" <thesubtlebody@yahoo.com>; "Zorn-List"
<zorn-list@lists.xmission.com>; <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Sent: mercredi 1 novembre 2000 1:48
Subject: Re: books on musique concrete
> >Maybe in the couple of years following
> > WWII, there was a natural antipathy between the French and Germans wh=
ich
> > contributed to the hostility. Anyway, as Patrice mentioned, eventual=
ly
the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I don't remember hearing of such hostility. Many German composers stopp=
ed
> by the Studio d'Essais and produced oeuvres using the fresh new techniq=
ue.
>
This hostility actually existed. Schaffer describes it in the "L'oeuvre
musicale" book (p. 49). The GRM was in Donaueschingen in 1953 to play
"Orph=E9e 53". They was constant noise in the concert hall. For the final=
,
Pierre Henry's "Voile d'Orph=E9e", the uproar in the hall became so high =
they
had to continually increase the volume. By the end of the show, all Germa=
ns
had left the room and only accompanying Frenches remained there to
congratulate Schaeffer and Henry. From this time on, writes Schaeffer wit=
h
humour, the GRM had to suffer "international reprobation".
Sen.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:32:01 +0000
From: dan hill <dan@state51.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Godard ---no zorn
> >Histoire(s) du Cinema has been released on CD, audio only (perversely),
>
>
>Has anybody heard this? I've been tempted to buy it just because the
>rights issues with the original videos will probably prevent any official
>release (if you've seen them you'll understand why).
hi everyone
sorry this is a little late, but m'learned colleague, simon hopkins,
wrote a great review of 'histoire(s) du cinema' for motion ... simon
reviews the package, text, sounds and all (and you can listen to a
couple of excerpts) at:
http://motion.state51.co.uk/reviews/630.html
in doing so, simon also manages to write an extremely smart and
timely piece on music and contemporary culture in general ... it's
really very good.
hope this helps.
this release would obviously be just about "the best DVD ever", but
that the legal problems (understatement of the year?) in clearing the
footage make that near impossible. it's a fine package for an
audio-only release, containing much text and images from the series,
and impeccable ECM presentation. i occasionally catch myself
absent-mindedly gazing at simon's copy, in reverie ...
all the best,
dan.
- --
- ---+ dan hill [state51]
---+ new reviews on motion [30.10.2000]:
< nobody | keith tippett | susumu yokota | cristian vogel | keiji
haino w/ greg cohen & joey baron | xen cuts | sun ra | quasimoto |
pimmon >
http://motion.state51.co.uk/ +---
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 07:37:32 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_musique_concr=E8te_[2]_(and_French,_and_?= nostalgia)
At 10:34 PM 10/31/00 -0800, Scott Handley wrote:
>
>Are these assertions at all correct? (This excerpt
>came to mind when I was reading list members' comments
>on national tendencies toward the form [?], practices
>and their [motivating] dogmas, and the waxing and
>waning of scenes/practices. Hope it's relevant.) I'm
>less interested in the O'Rourke connection per se than
>whether he's touched on something important.
Great interview, thanks for the pointer. My take on O'Rourke's statements
is an example of how younger composers are rediscovering the tradition.
Another take is the interview on Franciso Lopez' site at
http://www.franciscolopez.net/int.html, where he says that one of the
elements of the tradition that he likes is how the original sounds (in his
case of rain forests) are removed from reality and becomes 'objets sonores'.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance
like nobody's watching.
- -- Satchel Paige
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:44:24 -0400
From: "Neil H. Enet" <nilugo@usa.net>
Subject: Zorn life
Hello list,
a little introduction before my question.
Before becoming a Zorn (and experimental/avant garde) fan, I used to listen
to a lot of english alternativa/pop music, as a matter of fact I still do.
Things like DEPECHE MODE, CURE, MORRISSEY/SMITHS, PLACEBO, SUEDE, etc. Now,
fans of that type of music are always very curious about each musician's
life (are they married, are they gay/straight, where do they live, who they
live with, etc.). You see each artists FAQ, and you find the answers to
that kind of questions.
OK, I guess I was a fan of that type of music for so long that it messed my
mind up, and now i have to know the same things about John Zorn. So here it
goes:
Is he married? Is he straight/gay? Where does he live? (I read somewhere
that he lived half of the year in NY and half in Japan, is it true? Who does
he live with? and all those questions that have nothing to do with the
music (or does it?) :-)
Thanks, I hope I'm not the only one curious about this ... I don't want to
end up a fool in the list ... or am i already a fool?
Thanks in advance
Neil H. Enet
- ------------
NP. JOHN ZORN - the big gundown (15th)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 02:31:39 +0100
From: "Rob, the Belgian guy" <Rob@llaert.NU>
Subject: Bowie goes ...
David Bowie's new acoustic project:
David Bowie: all vocals, piano
Mark Dresser: bass
Joey Baron: drums
Dave Douglas: trumpet
Peter Epstein: soprano and alt sax
Sorry guys, just dreaming out loud! Wouldn't this be a blast ??? I don't
even know if Bowie plays the piano! Can anyone convince Bowie to make a good
record again ?
Greetings,
www.rob.allaert.com
"The goal is to bring the same intensity to listening as the performer to
playing."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:37:31 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Bowie goes ...
On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 02:31:39AM +0100, Rob, the Belgian guy wrote:
> Sorry guys, just dreaming out loud! Wouldn't this be a blast ??? I don't
> even know if Bowie plays the piano! Can anyone convince Bowie to make a good
> record again ?
Bowie toured as Iggy Pop's pianist in the '70s.
(A good record again? Granted that "Hours..." was underwhelming, but with
"1.Outside" and "Earthling" he's otherwise been at the top of his game.)
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 07:56:00 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: books on musique concrete
On Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:43:14 -0800 Jim Flannery wrote:
>
> "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
> >
> > People still wonder what is the use and achievements of IRCAM... Besides,
> > of course, being a vehicle for Boulez' ego.
>
> Um, creating MAX would be high on my list ...
I was thinking about music, not technology.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 08:10:53 -0800
From: Jim Flannery <newgrange@sfo.com>
Subject: Re: books on musique concrete
"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>
> > Um, creating MAX would be high on my list ...
>
> I was thinking about music, not technology.
There's a difference? :-)
- --
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery newgrange@sfo.com
"The trouble with writing stirring manifestos is that one has
to read them years later and ponder where things went wrong."
-- Jaxon
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #150
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