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Zorn List Digest      Thursday, October 19 2000      Volume 03 : Number 124



In this issue:
-
       0 masada / knit web site / boredoms
       RE: the crypt?
       RE: Zorn List Digest V3 #123
       Re: Jim Black: ALASNOAXIS (review)
       Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?
       Derek Bailey/Yankees (Re: Zero Masada would be enough)
       Naked City / Masada
       The Birth of Zorn's Alto Sax Endeavours.
       Re: Naked City / Masada
       Re: The Birth of Zorn's Alto Sax Endeavours.
       AMM
       Zorn  in Den Haag
       Re: absinthe live?
       Re: Zorn  in Den Haag
       berne/enten eller
       Zero Masada once more...
       Re: Zero Masada once more...
       Re: The Birth of Zorn's Alto Sax Endeavours.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:47:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: 0 masada / knit web site / boredoms

1. maybe masada is turing into a grateful dead of spastic jazz bands.
hence all the recordings - 'john's picks volumes 1 through 456'

2. knit fac should have gotten on their game years ago with the website.
as anyone who does web work knows, it's easy to set up a site, but takes a
commitment to maintain it. the first rule of thumb is, don't put up
anything with a date unless you can guarantee the ability to update it
regularly.  the inability of the knit fac organization to sustain anything
as simple as a regular (e.g. weekly) update of their website, given the
resources they presumably have available, speaks badly of their
organization, and is one of the easist public relations outlets to fix -
which speaks even worse of their organization.

3. I second the rec for the Boredoms 'SOUL DISCHARGE'.  that album is a
lo-fi blast.

cheers, whit


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:09:47 -0600
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: the crypt?



<< I'd also recommend hearing the trio alone first
and not purchasing "the Inexhaustible document."   >>
>not purchasing it at all? why?

oops.  sorry.  i meant not purchasing it as you first introduction to their
music.  I'm glad I started with the trio alone and would recommend to do
this simply because I feel that this is perhaps a more comfortable way to
slip into the AMM aesthetic. The Inexhaustible Document is, however, an
entirely worthwhile album in its own right but it was my second AMM purchase
and it took me a little while to warm up to it.

I should really read over my e-mails a little more critically instead of
just checking for typos.

Matt Wirzbicki

FWIW my "Sgt. Pepper" of free music was the Parker/Prevost double disc _Most
Material_ on Matchless.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 01:21:28 -0300
From: "Gabriel Lichtmann" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V3 #123

    Oh man, so many threads going on, and I wasn=B4t even able to answer =
to
the Beatles one (lets just say I love them). But regarding the "Zero Masa=
da"
thing, I think it's pretty cool to say one doesn't like the band, since i=
t
turned out to be Mr. Z's better known project. But I couldn't care less
about music being original, some of the worst crime against art have been
commited in the name of progress; I think it was Bunuel who said "Any art=
ist
that says he doesn=B4t belong to any tradition, is either a fool or an
ignorant". I like Masada because I can relate to it in many levels,
emotionally, intellectually, phisically, and because they opened my ears =
to
the sounds of some musicians I hadn=B4t heard before, including Ornette a=
nd
Klezmer.
    Let=B4s not forget Masada started recording only six years ago, and t=
hat
the series was supposedly over in 1998. So the trick lasted only four yea=
rs,
durnig which we also got "Bar Kokhba" (my personal favourite along with
"Godard" and the first Naked City), the string quartets, "Redbird", Duras=
,
Angelus Novus, Kristallnacht, etc. Sometimes it amazes me how fast we can
forget
    Hasta luego.

                                                LA LICHUZA

P.S. : Did anyone listen to the latest Charms of the Night Sky? I was qui=
te
disappointed by it.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:03:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jim Black: ALASNOAXIS (review)

Oops, not a very complete review.  The guitarist is
Hilmar Jensson, who I know nothing about.  My comment
about "Frisell wannabe" is prbably accurate, but it's
also too snide....the guy has a beautiful sound and is
a consummate musician.  Perfect for the record.
Nonetheless, the mark of Frisell is indelible; it's
not emulation, though---I'll admit I threw off the
wrong impression.

- -----s


- --- Julian <[e-mail]> wrote:
> > guitarist is a Bill Frisell wannabe (Paul Bley
> > Quartet-era), no doubt; though there's plenty new
> to
> > be excited about.
>
> Who is the guitarist?
>



__________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:43:17 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?

From: A <[e-mail]>
> Weird Little Boy.
> I was hugely disappointed when I heard it, because I expected a
> little bit more than pointless improvisations by 5 great musicians.

I have similiar impression about zorn/sharp/previte/horvitz disc. Quite
empty.
BTW, in the recent heretic/absinthe thread, i wrote that heretic is quite
weak. I listened to the album again, and I would like to apologize for the
lack of truth in my opinions. It's incredible (although i'm not - yet? -
enthousiast about eye's parts).


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:22:10 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Steve Berman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Derek Bailey/Yankees (Re: Zero Masada would be enough)

>>>>> "Dave" == DRoyko  <[e-mail]> writes:

    Dave> In a message dated 00-10-18 08:43:59 EDT,
    Dave> [e-mail] writes:
    >> On rec.music.bluenote a week or two ago you said you'd only
    >> heard the duo with Cecil Taylor; what have you heard since?

    Dave> Yankees (at your suggestion). I'm not sorry I did, though I
    Dave> can't say it changed my feelings.

Actually, _Yankees_ was someone else's suggestion; I suggested just
about every other DB record I'm familiar with :-). My emphasis was on
Bailey's solo recordings, which is where I get into his music the
most. Since it had been a while, I listened to _Yankees_ again last
night, and though I like it quite a bit and find the interplay often
very compelling, Bailey's playing, while characteristic, does not
stand out against the horns. That's why I wouldn't recommend it as an
introduction to Bailey's music (nor to Zorn's or Lewis's, though their
voices come across more forcefully to me on this record than DB's; the
record itself I would recommend as a very nice example of free improv,
just not as an introduction to the individual players).

- --Steve Berman


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:53:36 +0200
From: "Ari" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Naked City / Masada

Maybe this helps the recent discussion on the list:
what Zorn himself said on:

a) Masada = Coleman + Klezmer
"The one thing that really surprises me and is a symbol of how limited
critics' ears are is the way critics describe it (Masada): klezmer meets
Ornette. Of course, there's klezmer. Of course, there's Ornette. But there
are as many influences in that music as went into the composition of the
Naked City music or any other music I've done - like surf music, movie
soundtracks, Sephardic and Arabic music, modern classical, modal jazz. I
play them with Joey and Dave, and they say, "Ornette meets klezmer." When I
do it for the Masada String Trio, everyone says, "Wow! It's so deeply rooted
in the Jewish tradition of string music." Then I do it with the sextet, and
people say, "Yeah, it's a real loungey, easy-listening Les Baxter type of
thing." I mean, I could do it with a hardcore band."

b) Why Naked City stopped playing
"I feel the need to write for other ensembles, in other contexts, with new
ideas. So the Naked City project has come to an end, like all projects: they
have a beginning and an end. I'm not the kind of musician who likes
travelling for years on tour, performing the same repertoire every evening.
(...) In my opinion NC has become too wellknown, too popular for my liking.
It had become something dangerous: I felt the audience was sucking my
blood... They used to ask for their favourite piece. They just wanted the
same things, they weren't looking for something new. And I can't keep on
going in a situation like that even if it would seem to be very attractive
on the surface".

Ari.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 20:16:11 +1000
From: "Adam Rock" <[e-mail]>
Subject: The Birth of Zorn's Alto Sax Endeavours.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Dear Zorn-listers,

I once read somewhere that Zorn didn't first pick up the alto sax until =
he was 21 and that he originally practiced around 8 hours a day. Does =
anyone know if this information is factual? Also can anyone tell me when =
Zorn first played the alto sax on a studio recording or during a live =
performance?

Thanks in advance,

Adam

- ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C03A09.6CBB3A20
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Dear Zorn-listers,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I once read somewhere that Zorn didn't first pick up the alto sax =
until he=20
was 21 and that he originally practiced around 8 hours a day. Does =
anyone know=20
if this information is factual? Also can anyone tell me when Zorn first =
played=20
the alto sax on a studio recording or during a live performance?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks in advance,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Adam</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C03A09.6CBB3A20--


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:28:54 GMT
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naked City / Masada

>Maybe this helps the recent discussion on the list:
>what Zorn himself said on:
>
>a) Masada = Coleman + Klezmer
>"The one thing that really surprises me and is a symbol of how limited
>critics' ears are is the way critics describe it (Masada): klezmer meets
>Ornette. Of course, there's klezmer. Of course, there's Ornette. But there
>are as many influences in that music as went into the composition of the
>Naked City music or any other music I've done - like surf music, movie
>soundtracks, Sephardic and Arabic music, modern classical, modal jazz. I
>play them with Joey and Dave, and they say, "Ornette meets klezmer." When I
>do it for the Masada String Trio, everyone says, "Wow! It's so deeply
>rooted
>in the Jewish tradition of string music." Then I do it with the sextet, and
>people say, "Yeah, it's a real loungey, easy-listening Les Baxter type of
>thing." I mean, I could do it with a hardcore band."

Hardcore Masada?! Wauw, that I'd like to hear!! What would be a good lineup
for that... ;-)

ARTHUR_G
_________________________________________________________________________
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Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:36:38 +0200
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The Birth of Zorn's Alto Sax Endeavours.

Adam Rock wrote:

>  I once read somewhere that Zorn didn't first pick up the alto sax
> until he was 21 and that he originally practiced around 8 hours a day.
> Does anyone know if this information is factual? Also can anyone tell
> me when Zorn first played the alto sax on a studio recording or during
> a live performance

hi adam

if i remember correctly, jz talks about the 1st point you mentioned, in
william duckworth's book "talking music".

again if memory serves right, i think it is a fact that he didn't start
playing sax until he was 21 and that he did practice those long hours.

to those who've read the interview in duckworth's book: didn't jz also
mention that one of his teachers told him he was too old to start
playing sax, that he would never be able to be good at it?

patRice
(whose memory is a bit like a swiss cheese; or at least he likes to
think so... ;-))

np: petro-loukas chalkias & kompania "world network vol. 46: epirus"
nr: eiji yoshikawa "musashi", don ed hardy "dragon tattoo design"


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:18:07 GMT
From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
Subject: AMM

What is the current AMM line-up?
_________________________________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:29:48 +0200
From: [e-mail] ( Emmanouil Papagiannakis)
Subject: Zorn  in Den Haag

It seems that mr Z will be prforming tomorrow  Friday, in Den Haag with
the Guus Janssen trio. Probably in connection
to the performance of a piece of him (no title, dutch premiere
says the programm) by the Residentie Orkestra on Saturday.

Any relevant information is welcome.

Manolis

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 07:15:52 -0400
From: stephen drury <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: absinthe live?

At 08:59 AM 10/18/00 -0600, patRice wrote:
>
>i'm not quite sure about this myself, but if i remember correctly i once met a
>guy who told me he'd seen a live performance of "absinthe" in germany
>(cologne?). must have been around 1991/92/93. i also think i remember him
>telling me that it wasn't the "standard" naked city line-up. maybe marc ribot
>played, too - plus some others.
>
pretty much true - it was a varied program including cat-o-nine-tails (i
think), carny (that's why i was there) and absinthe, which may have included
david shea & willie winant ... i don't remember ribot being there, but my
memory is also a bit hazy.

- --steve

check out the cool new stuff on
http://www.stephendrury.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:57:53 +0200
From: "dekater" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn  in Den Haag

- -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Emmanouil Papagiannakis <[e-mail]>
Aan: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Datum: donderdag 19 oktober 2000 12:29
Onderwerp: Zorn in Den Haag


>It seems that mr Z will be prforming tomorrow  Friday, in Den Haag with
>the Guus Janssen trio. Probably in connection
>to the performance of a piece of him (no title, dutch premiere
>says the programm) by the Residentie Orkestra on Saturday.
>
>Any relevant information is welcome.
>
>Manolis


According to my information the 'Residentie Orkest' will play the Dutch
premiere of Zorns 'La Machine d'etre'. Zorn will be appearing on Dutch
television Sunday October 22th between 11.00-12.00 in the program 'Reiziger
in muziek'.

Jan Luyben


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 05:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hywel Davies <[e-mail]>
Subject: berne/enten eller

anyone have a cd by the Italian band Enten Eller (with
Tim Berne guesting) called "Melquiades" ? your
opinions will be welcome...
also, Ecm are releasing a live cd by Paul Bley, Evan
Parker and Barre Phillips - "sankt gerold"...(how do
you pronounce "Barre"?!) thanks..

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:55:50 +0100
From: Nuno Barreiro <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zero Masada once more...

I have to make a few comments about my first post, to
clarify my viewpoint.

==> I said Masada is OC with an oriental flavour. And
"oriental flavour" doesn't mean "jewish scales": 1) there are other
musics in the orient; 2) a flavour is not given by scales alone - there
is also the rythm and, in fact, all the rest...

Yesterday I went through Gimel and those tunes you have pointed
as typical non-OC examples. But if you take that "oriental flavor"
offset, you are left with typical OC tunes: complicated melodies
sounding like weird lulabies, with obsessive pattern repetions; but,
most of all, the improvisation is based on the melody rather than chord
changes. That last characteristic is the typical OC signature, which
he called "harmolodics" (and which heavily relies on the fact that
there is no piano playing chords, and inversions of chords, and all that

things that piano players usually really enjoy).

By the way, the impression that Masada is much more tight than
OC is completely wrong. OC's music is much more than the "Free
Jazz" album which, in my humble opinion, is one of his less significant
works (don't get me wrong, the album is very important, but I don't
think it has many connections with the rest of OC's music). I see it
more like a collective improvisation by a bunch of incredibly good
musicians. If you have the chance to go through the Atlantic box
("Beauty is a rare thing") you will certainly understand what I
mean: there are lots of songs, some of which even have chord
changes...

==> As for the revolution I was expecting in the Masada serie: I
was refering to a revolution whithin the group, not an absolute
musical revolution. If you have those late 50's Miles albums (Cookin',
Steamin', Relaxin', Workin') you know that they are all very similar...
But
Miles was looking for something and didn't give us 10 such albums. In
fact
he gave us "Kind of blue"...

I think that, by releasing album after album, Zorn has created an
expectation
that he should be able to fullfil, but hasn't yet. Masada is a great
band,
excellent musicians, everything... and that's precisely the reason why
it's a pity to see them play such boring music.

Nuno


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 00:53:55 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zero Masada once more...

> By the way, the impression that Masada is much more tight than
> OC is completely wrong. OC's music is much more than the "Free
> Jazz" album which, in my humble opinion, is one of his less significant
> works (don't get me wrong, the album is very important, but I don't
> think it has many connections with the rest of OC's music.

I wasn't referring to "Free Jazz" at all, rather the quartet stuff, like
"The Shape Of Jazz To Come"... That is a really loose album...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:59:03 -0400
From: "George Scala" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: The Birth of Zorn's Alto Sax Endeavours.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I believe Zorn's first studio recording issued was:

The Frank Lowe Orchestra=20
Lowe & Behold=20
Musicworks 3002=20
USA rec NYC, 10/77     =20
Frank Lowe-ts,comp,arr; Joseph Bowie-tb; Butch Morris-cor; Arthur =
Williams-tp; Billy Bang-vln; Polly Bradfield-vln; Eugene Chadbourne-g; =
John Lindberg-b; Phillip Wilson-d,perc; John Zorn-as; Peter Kuhn-cl,bcl

George Scala
http://www.mindspring.com/~scala

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Adam Rock=20
  To: [e-mail]=20
  Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2000 6:16 AM
  Subject: The Birth of Zorn's Alto Sax Endeavours.


  Dear Zorn-listers,

  I once read somewhere that Zorn didn't first pick up the alto sax =
until he was 21 and that he originally practiced around 8 hours a day. =
Does anyone know if this information is factual? Also can anyone tell me =
when Zorn first played the alto sax on a studio recording or during a =
live performance?

  Thanks in advance,

  Adam

- ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C039B3.35FBD680
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I believe Zorn's first studio recording =
issued=20
was:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Frank Lowe =
Orchestra </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lowe & Behold </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Musicworks 3002 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>USA rec NYC,=20
10/77      </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Frank Lowe-ts,comp,arr; Joseph=20
Bowie-tb; Butch Morris-cor; Arthur Williams-tp; Billy=20
Bang-vln; Polly Bradfield-vln; Eugene Chadbourne-g; John=20
Lindberg-b; Phillip Wilson-d,perc; John Zorn-as; Peter=20
Kuhn-cl,bcl<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>George Scala</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.mindspring.com/~scala">http://www.mindspring.com/~scal=
a</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> </DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=[e-mail]=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">Adam Rock</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=[e-mail]=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]">[e-mail]=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 19, =
2000 6:16=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> The Birth of Zorn's =
Alto Sax=20
  Endeavours.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Dear Zorn-listers,</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>I once read somewhere that Zorn didn't first pick up the alto sax =
until=20
  he was 21 and that he originally practiced around 8 hours a day. Does =
anyone=20
  know if this information is factual? Also can anyone tell me when Zorn =
first=20
  played the alto sax on a studio recording or during a live =
performance?</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Thanks in advance,</DIV>
  <DIV> </DIV>
  <DIV>Adam</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_00A5_01C039B3.35FBD680--


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #124
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