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Zorn List Digest      Wednesday, October 18 2000      Volume 03 : Number 123



In this issue:
-
       Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #121/Zero Masada
       Re: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?
       Hassidic Scales
       Re: Spy Vs. Eye
       Re: Hassidic Scales
       Re: answer to several threads...
       Re: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?
       BOREDOMS! (was SPY vs EYE)
       Re: KF
       Jim Black's ALASNOAXIS (review)
       Re: KF
       Re: SPY vs EYE
       Re: answer to several threads...
       Re: Jim Black's ALASNOAXIS (review)
       K.C.
       rec.music.experimental
       RE: the crypt?
       Re: the crypt?
       Re: Hassidic Scales
       Re: BOREDOMS! (was SPY vs EYE)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:19:47 -0700
From: Trey LeCroy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V3 #121/Zero Masada

I am moved to emerge from lurking--at least momentarily--by this discussion of the
"value" of Masada.  I think what is missing from the discussion so far is an
acknowledgment that Masada exists (primarily?) as a vehicle for performance.  Zorn
is not just a composer, he's a player, and IMO one of the most interesting, most
compelling, saxophonists we've got. Masada seems to me to be his current outlet
for playing the saxophone, and he's assembled a dynamite band around himself to do
just that.  To some extent, Masada can be considered a jazz band, and it's about
playing some great tunes, improvising some amazing solos, and witnessing some
spontaneous musical interaction at the highest level.  As a jazz fan first, it's
easy for me to "get" that.

Regardless of whether or not Masada is serving the "need" for "revolution" or
"progress" in the development of music generally, it allows Zorn to play his ass
off and he and the other members of the group seem to have a great time doing it.
That I happen to find it amazing, and beautiful, and highly valuable, is a bonus
for me.  That enough others seem to feel the same way to allow Zorn a significant
contribution toward paying the rent is, I imagine, a bonus for Zorn.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:19:04 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?

In a message dated 10/18/00 12:24:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> <I think the two worst Zorn CDs that I have are the
> <Knitting Factory Cobra and "Taboo & Exile".

here's my take on these 2 albums.  cobra is pretty cool.   i don't have any
idea what the hell is going on, but its pretty cool.  i've read about his
game pieces, and i kind of understand what its about, but i don't think i'll
truly know until i see one.    on the other hand, i love taboo and exile.
taboo was my second zorn album and the first that i really really liked (my
first zorn was euclid's nightmare).  i'm a new fan, i figured i'd pick up his
new release at the time.  i'm a patton fan which helped, but "bull's eye" is
far from the best song on the album.  "seraphim" is a wonderful song, and the
rest of the album is stellar .   it was nice to hear dave lombardo again too.
 all in all a great album in my opinion.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:19:52 -0400
From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Hassidic Scales

Does any one know where I can find the so-called "Hassidic Scales"?  I'd
like to use them in some of my work, but I've only stumbled upon poor
imitations.  Thanks

Zach

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:26:55 -0400
From: "&c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Spy Vs. Eye

I agree with you quite a bit.  I was a little disappointed when I first
listen to the album.  I was expecting some thing earth shattering, because
that's the way it was touted by many, mainly the folks on list.  There are a
lot of good things about the album and it has grown on me, but it is no
where close to being my favorite Zorn CD.  It's actually one of  my least
favorites, down there with Weird Little Boy (sorry guys).  I love Coleman,
but I'm not very keen on Zorn's interpretation.  I guess I'm missing or
misunderstanding something.  Just my opinion...

&c.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:47:40 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hassidic Scales

On Wed, Oct 18, 2000 at 04:19:52PM -0400, &c. wrote:
> Does any one know where I can find the so-called "Hassidic Scales"?  I'd
> like to use them in some of my work, but I've only stumbled upon poor
> imitations.  Thanks

To my ears, the most recognizable "Hassidic" scale is:

D Eb F# G A Bb C#

It doesn't map to any of the standard modes, but may have the feel
you're looking for.

My piece "Ghost Dervish Beach" uses it. There's an MP3 of a performance
up at http://www.metatronpress.com/mp3/

Enjoy!
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:31:29 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: answer to several threads...

>>>>But
the inclusion of that 18 minute scream track really annoys me...<<<<




hm,
i like the idea of the 18 minute screaming track.  one time i fell asleep to
it.  that was very interesting.  i can't remember if i slept poorly or had
strange dreams or whatnot.  but i think the track serves as a better joke
than as a stimulating or engaging piece.
   (this coming from a merzbow fan.)

on another note, i've noticed a lot of people talking about certain pieces
that grew on them slowly over time.  could people talk about what zorn
pieces they really loved at first and are now sick of?  (i mean pieces, not
like the masada example of zero discs is enough.)

  thanks,
    samuel




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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:49:29 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?

hey,
to all who aren't into Euclid's Nightmare I would recommend repeated
listenings.  there's a lot in that album that one does not at first hear.
depending on the track, of course.

  it kind of reminds me of Dolphy OUt To Lunch, since that album just didn't
bounce off me properly when i first heard it.  but there's so much there.

   -samuel



taboo was my second zorn album and the first that i really really liked (my
first zorn was euclid's nightmare).

- -


_________________________________________________________________________
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http://profiles.msn.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:20:56 -0400
From: Ian Farrell <[e-mail]>
Subject: BOREDOMS! (was SPY vs EYE)

Benito summed up CHOCO and AE quite well, but personally I can't stand AE or
any of their new-style droney new agey muzak... depends on what your tastes
are... I like the heavy hardcore spazz noise of the earlier boredoms (some
call it "noisecore", because it is not really pure "noise" like Hanatarash,
but more like hardcore punk mixed with noisy elements). For sheer heaviness,
I turn to WOW2 on the Avant label, one of my favorite bore CDs. But I also
love SOUL DISCHARGE on the Shimmy Disc label (if you can find it). Also UFO
OR DIE another Eye band with Yoshimi on drums and High-Ash (anyone know who
this is?) on bass put out a couple of my favorite noisecore CDs, like
CASSETTETAPE SUPERSTAR on Public Bath Records, if you can find it.
PS: SPY VS SPY is one of my favorite Zorn CDs of all time next to TORTURE
GARDEN, so that might explain my tastes a little more too....
- --------------------------------------------
>From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
> Two albums: "Chocolate Synthesizer," the best of the spazz-era Boredoms (and
> closer in spirit to "Heretic), and "Super Ae," which is total acid-fried
> psych-trance madness. The latter is quite exhausting to listento, but for
> that matter, so is the former.
- --------------------------------------------
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Philippe Dupuis
>> i haven't heard any BOREDOMS, where would be a good place to start?
- --------------------------------------------


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:43:01 -0400
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: KF

Let me preface this by saying that the Knit is one of my favorite clubs in
town.  Even if I'm not going to see a group, the first floor and lower
floor bars are good places to hang out.  I've also known a lot of people
who've worked there and they are good folk.

But.  I also know that these people who work there complain of slave wages
and ultimately cannot afford to work there for long (hence, the high
turnover rate).  This obviously has an effect on their projects.  They were
supposed to start up a magazine about 2 or 3 years ago called Stitch.  I
was one of the people involved in this, planning out stories, interviews,
etc..  The shortened details were that the main editor was very
disorganized and in the end, all the work was done for the nothing- the
magazine never even got to the first issue and no one there now seems to
know what happened.

I also volunteered to help with Knit Notes and did another interview for
the magazine.  This was cut at the last minute without any explanation.  My
conclusion was that it wasn't worth trying to do any writing projects for
the Knit.

Despite these experiences, I still like the Knit itself and would be really
sorry to see it go.  Places like Tonic and Roulette wouldn't fully be able
to take up the slack.

Best,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 14:52:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jim Black's ALASNOAXIS (review)

I've seen some stuff written on-list, but I thought
I'd chime in and try to describe it a bit.  A very
special record; it sticks in my mind.

Jim Black - ALASNOAXIS  (W&W)
A strength of the record is its diversity: without
resorting to pastiche, Black seems to employ rock,
jazz, funk, folk, ambient, and other influences less
as styles than as textures, which are often layered
and mixed.  From one track to the next, there's washes
of feedback; Speed's alternating lyricism and
paroxysm, with that gorgeous, warbly, rubbery clean
tone, stuffed with overtones; floating streams of
effect-laden guitar/bass feedback (WITHOUT drums!);
and some gorgeous melodies.  Many of the compositions
are very song-like, without Big Solos, and often
dynamic; the melodies are, to my ear, similar,
melancholy, kind of elegiac; their homogeneity
actually works to advantage, the effect being that of
a suite, perhaps.  (A very general comparison with
Bill Frisell's THIS LAND might be in order.)  The
guitarist is a Bill Frisell wannabe (Paul Bley
Quartet-era), no doubt; though there's plenty new to
be excited about.  (Black must listen to lots of Paul
Motian Trio.  His drumming has nothing to do with
Motian, but his melodies owe everything to the Trio's
records.  The similarities are at times striking.)
Jim's occasional Bonzo-Bloodcount drumwork is nowhere
to be found; this is not a drummer's record.  Skuli
Sverisson's electric bass sound is chorused, huge,
beautiful as usual; he's subtle and moves inside the
music with great facility.  The _songwriting_ might be
the greatest accomplishment; it seems like a really
skilled coinhabitation of free-form improvisation and
terrific song-writing, coming from the improvising
instrumentalist's camp; from the songwriter's camp,
maybe Radiohead's newest wouldn't be that far off?
(Hm.)  At any rate, it's a beautiful record, even
though the challenge is a subtle one, different from
the challenges of, say, a Voice Crack album.  This is
a composer's record.

He has a new (??) website, for those who have not yet
seen it: http://home.earthlink.net/~jimmyblack/
I'm not sure how many weeks it's been "a week" from
completion, though.

- ----s



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:07:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: KF

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Perfect Sound Forever wrote:

> But.  I also know that these people who work there complain of slave wages
> and ultimately cannot afford to work there for long (hence, the high
> turnover rate).  This obviously has an effect on their projects.  They were
> supposed to start up a magazine about 2 or 3 years ago called Stitch.  I
> was one of the people involved in this, planning out stories, interviews,
> etc..  The shortened details were that the main editor was very
> disorganized and in the end, all the work was done for the nothing- the
> magazine never even got to the first issue and no one there now seems to
> know what happened.

The most unfortunate thing about the Knit's disorganization is that
projects with great potential go unfulfilled.  I wrote 3 reviews for
Stitch and it seemed like it would be a really cool thing - distributed
outside of the NYC area as well.  But of course nothing ever happened...

Two other areas i can think of:

1) Offering shows from the Jazz Fest on CD-R - what a possibility!
Unfortunately, last year only 3 shows were made available - and I cannot
believe that the groups offered were the only 3 groups that consented to
taping.

2) Their website is NEVER updated.  Man, the Knit is like the Mecca for
creative music in the whole USA and their site never, ever gets updated -
what a shame...

> Despite these experiences, I still like the Knit itself and would be really
> sorry to see it go.  Places like Tonic and Roulette wouldn't fully be able
> to take up the slack.

Not to mention all of the great music that they have released on CD...

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:27:38 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: SPY vs EYE

> as for EYE, i haven't heard NANI NANI - but if it's anything like the
> 3 tracks on HERETIC with the zorn/eye team it should be awesome.

No, it's pretty much nothing like... The first track I guess is similar but
it goes for just over a minute I think...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:35:26 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: answer to several threads...

> hm,
> i like the idea of the 18 minute screaming track.  one time i fell asleep
to
> it.  that was very interesting.  i can't remember if i slept poorly or had
> strange dreams or whatnot.  but i think the track serves as a better joke
> than as a stimulating or engaging piece.

Come to think of it, I'm not entirely sure what they're doing on this
track... is it staggered scream recordings, or what? I guess I also wonder
why they chose 18 minutes 13 seconds or whatever it is...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:40:56 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jim Black's ALASNOAXIS (review)

> guitarist is a Bill Frisell wannabe (Paul Bley
> Quartet-era), no doubt; though there's plenty new to
> be excited about.

Who is the guitarist?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:43:29 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: K.C.

In a message dated 10/18/00 11:00:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<
 np. King Crimson: Red (24 bit remaster... ooh...)
 - --  >>


This is my favorite King Crimson record...scary.

ben o.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 21:10:37 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: rec.music.experimental

forwarded e-mail follows, sorry for cross-posts:

- ------------------------------------------------------

Hello,

I'm looking for people who support the creation of a new usenet group,
rec.music.experimental. We have nearly 150 supporters, and need another 100.
If you are willing to vote *YES* in an email election for the creation of
rec.music.experimental,
please email me directly at [e-mail], and I will keep you updated.
The vote will take place in about 3 weeks.

Thank you,


brent c
nunya biznaz

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:45:30 -0600
From: "Matthew W Wirzbicki  (S) " <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: the crypt?


>It's finally time for me to start exploring AMM - should I get the
>Crypt first???

I only just recently bought the Crypt and I'm very happy that I did but,
for myself, I'm glad I heard other releases beforehand.  My
recommendation would be to start later as I found/find their later stuff
to be more accessible.  I'd also recommend hearing the trio alone first
and not purchasing "the Inexhaustible document."

Matt Wirzbicki


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 22:38:01 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: the crypt?

In a message dated 10/18/00 9:47:21 PM, [e-mail]
writes:

<< I'd also recommend hearing the trio alone first

and not purchasing "the Inexhaustible document."   >>

not purchasing it at all? why?

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:29:46 -0700
From: Reuben Radding <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Hassidic Scales

At 03:47 PM 10/18/00 -0400, you wrote:
>To my ears, the most recognizable "Hassidic" scale is:
>
>D Eb F# G A Bb C#
>
>It doesn't map to any of the standard modes, but may have the feel
>you're looking for.

Actually, that's a gypsy variation on what Klezmers call the "freygish
mode." The freygish (using the tone center you're using) is the 5th mode of
harmonic minor ( D Eb F# G A Bb C D). When harmonizing this mode, one
usually uses the standard major I chord, replaces the IV chord with a minor
IV, and usually the V chord is replaced (function-wise) with a bVII minor.

The primary minor Jewish mode is known as the Avaha Raba, and goes like D E
F G# A B C D.
This is harmonized with a minor I chord, a minor IV chord and a typical V7.

Both these scales are used frequently in the Masada material.

all best,

Reuben Radding


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:19:47 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: BOREDOMS! (was SPY vs EYE)

In a message dated 10/18/00 5:24:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Benito summed up CHOCO and AE quite well, but personally I can't stand AE
or
 any of their new-style droney new agey muzak...  >>


Wow.  Droney, yes, but they rage through Super AE with two drummers
absolutely flailing throughout lots of the tracks!  I think I understand what
you generally mean, though.

- -matt

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #123
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