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Zorn List Digest      Thursday, October 19 2000      Volume 03 : Number 125



In this issue:
-
       Re: Naked City / Masada
       Re: AMM
       Re: Naked City / Masada
       Re: Zero Masada once more...
       Re: Zorn in Den Haag
       Re: AMM
       Re: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?
       Re: Zero Masada once more...
       Re: Zero Masada once more...
       NYC: live microtonal music
       Re: Metropolis(Non-Zorn related)
       berne, eller and barre
       PROMO: Thomas Lehn/Marcus Schmickler-Bart
       Re: Zero Masada once more...
       Re: Zero Masada once more...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:00:55 -0400
From: Ian Farrell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naked City / Masada

THanks for these direct-from-Zorn quotes. It is so hard to find any since he
doesnt like doing too many interviews. what articles or web sites did you
get these quotes from?

> From: "Ari" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Naked City / Masada
>
> Maybe this helps the recent discussion on the list:
> what Zorn himself said on:
> a) Masada = Coleman + Klezmer
> "The one thing that really surprises me and ... <snip>
> b) Why Naked City stopped playing
> "I feel the need to write for other ensembles, ... <snip>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:13:23 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: AMM

In a message dated 10/19/00 6:18:56 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< What is the current AMM line-up? >>

Eddie Pr=E9vost-percussion
Keith Rowe-guitar, electronics
John Tilbury-piano

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:25:13 -0400
From: Ian Farrell <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Naked City / Masada

> From: "Arthur Gadney" <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Re: Naked City / Masada

>> what Zorn himself said on:
>> a) Masada "...I mean, I could do it with a hardcore band."
>
> Hardcore Masada?! Wauw, that I'd like to hear!! What would be a good lineup
> for that... ;-)

Yeah!! Yeah!! Me too!! He could use the same guys from the SPY VS SPY group
since he called that his first hardcore exploration... or andrew weiss, sim
caine etc (those guys that backed-up Henry Rollins for awhile) who Zorn has
played with before... or the Mr. Bungle boys, like Trey Spruance, Mike
Patton, Trevor Dunn, etc... or, in fantasy land, he could create a classic
early 80s hardcore line-up with Greg Ginn the guitar player from BLACK FLAG,
Derf Scratch the sax player from FEAR, John Doe the bass player from X, Earl
Hudson the drummer from the BAD BRAINS, and for the life of me right now I
cant think of any keyboard player from any hardcore punk band?!?!


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:28:26 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zero Masada once more...

In a message dated 10/19/00 8:54:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I think that, by releasing album after album, Zorn has created an
 expectation
 that he should be able to fullfil, but hasn't yet. Masada is a great
 band,
 excellent musicians, everything... and that's precisely the reason why
 it's a pity to see them play such boring music. >>


See, this is what I don't understand.  How is that Ornette Coleman is
exciting and vibrant (to most of this list it seems, and to me as well), yet
Masada is sweepingly referred to as "boring"?  I'm listening to Masada RIGHT
NOW and it is anything but boring.  In fact, it's jaw-droppingly inspired.
True, Masada's music isn't as "revolutionary" as Coleman's harmodolics, but
who cares?  Does one need to invent something wholly new for it to be
exciting?  By following that rationale to its most absurd conclusion all
notes are boring.  All songs are boring.  All symphonies are boring.
Improvisation is boring because it's been done countless times before.  (And
I won't even get in to the fact that inventing something wholly new is
virtually impossible.  Coleman, as groundbreaking as he was/is, still worked
within the jazz idiom and used melodies in a fairly traditional way.)

This is not a diss of Coleman.  His discs are still in heavy rotation at my
house.  And this is also not to say that I think Masada is playing Klezmer
Coleman.  To my ears they go far beyond that.  I'm just trying to understand
why my favorite contemporary band is being called boring so often by so many.
 Is it because the rhetoric that surrounds these debates demands
"revolutionary" music be the highest standard of quality?

Curious,
Tom


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 16:34:14 +0200
From: [e-mail] ( Emmanouil Papagiannakis)
Subject: Re: Zorn in Den Haag

Additional information i received from a friend is:


zorn will play on the Festival in de Branding and will perform a set with
trio Guus Janssen.  On friday 20 oktober at "Theater aan het Spui" (Kleine
Zaal) . Adress: Spui 187 Den Haag.
The concert starts at 20:15

Also playing that night are: Bas Keijzer (never heard of) and Steve
Beresford (nice)

Tickets: 070 346 52 72 only f12,50


manolis


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:37:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: AMM

In a message dated 10/19/00 10:14:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20
[e-mail] writes:

<< Eddie Pr=E9vost-percussion
 Keith Rowe-guitar, electronics
 John Tilbury-piano >>
  In the liner notes to the Crypt, from '91, Prevost talks about how the=20
current line up of Gare [Lou, sax], de Saram [Rohan, cello], Prevost, Rowe=20
and Tilbury had yet to record.  Interesting, since they STILL have yet to=20
record, even though the trio formation has relased plenty of albums since. =20

- -matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:41:24 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?

In a message dated 10/19/00 3:15:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< BTW, in the recent heretic/absinthe thread, i wrote that heretic is quite
 weak. I listened to the album again, and I would like to apologize for the
 lack of truth in my opinions.  >>

Why?  Aren't ones opinions 'true' when one has them?  Or are they 'false' if
everyone thinks you're wrong?  No need to apologize.

- -matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:05:05 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zero Masada once more...

In a message dated 10/19/00 10:30:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< See, this is what I don't understand.  How is that Ornette Coleman is
 exciting and vibrant (to most of this list it seems, and to me as well), yet
 Masada is sweepingly referred to as "boring"?  I'm listening to Masada RIGHT
 NOW and it is anything but boring.

For me, the playing is very boring.  It's loud and soft and dynamic, and they
interact, but its still boring.  I feel that they are playing 'jazzily' not
playing 'jazz.'

 In fact, it's jaw-droppingly inspired.
 True, Masada's music isn't as "revolutionary" as Coleman's harmodolics, but
 who cares?  Does one need to invent something wholly new for it to be
 exciting?  By following that rationale to its most absurd conclusion all
 notes are boring.  All songs are boring.  All symphonies are boring.
 Improvisation is boring because it's been done countless times before.

Two points:

1)All you people that think those who don't like Masada only want revolutions
are wrong, wrong, wrong!  When he said 'revolution within the group' he meant
evolution, which seemed obvious to me.  Just because we don't like this group
doesn't necessarily make us avant-garde torch-bearer-wannabes, just because
we like other Zorn things that happen to be more avant-garde.  At least it
doesn't make me that; I like lots of music that many people on this list
would thumb their damn nose at for its mainstream or non-revolutionary nature.

2)By your reasoning, Masada can be said to equal the greatness of Bach,
Beethoven, Carter, Miles, Xenakis, Ornette, Jimi Hendrix, none of whom
invented something wholly new, but all of whom have created music I, and
probably lots of people, like more than Masada.

(And
 I won't even get in to the fact that inventing something wholly new is
 virtually impossible.  Coleman, as groundbreaking as he was/is, still worked
 within the jazz idiom and used melodies in a fairly traditional way.)

 This is not a diss of Coleman.  His discs are still in heavy rotation at my
 house.  And this is also not to say that I think Masada is playing Klezmer
 Coleman.  To my ears they go far beyond that.  I'm just trying to understand
 why my favorite contemporary band is being called boring so often by so
many.
  Is it because the rhetoric that surrounds these debates demands
 "revolutionary" music be the highest standard of quality?

My ears are not too shabby, either, and I am really hard-pressed to find
anything other than those two influences on any of those Masada quartet
albums.  Bar Kohkba's another story, though I find that even more boring.
Frankly, Zorn's quote, posted earlier, does not impress me.  Unless of course
he means that all the music one studies goes into all the music one creates,
which is fine, since that at least is somewhat true.  Somehow, however, I
don't get that impression.

Additionally, I think those that dislike Masada are in the minority on this
list, in probably in general.
 Curious,
 Tom
  >>
- -matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 10:39:13 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zero Masada once more...

On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 11:05:05AM -0400, [e-mail] wrote:

> For me, the playing is very boring.  It's loud and soft and dynamic, and they
> interact, but its still boring.  I feel that they are playing 'jazzily' not
> playing 'jazz.'

Hmm... another redefinition taking place, to sit on the shelf of "Words
That Supposedly Don't Mean What People Mean by Them", along with "styles",
"music", and ... uh ... whatever the others were.

All are directed to Chapter 6 of "Through the Looking Glass and What
Alice Found There", at
http://www.mcs.drexel.edu/~bchar/carroll/alice_25.html#SEC28

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:47:10 -0700
From: David Beardsley <[e-mail]>
Subject: NYC: live microtonal music

Sunday 22, 2000
7:00 pm

World Premiere

Vixa
for microtonal guitar synthesizer
by David Beardsley

Free live in-store performance at
Downtown Music Gallery
211 E. 5th St. N.Y., N.Y. 10003
Phone: [phone]
http://www.dtmgallery.com/presents.htm

- --
* D a v i d         B e a r d s l e y
* 49/32  R a d i o "all microtonal, all the time"
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:52:46 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Metropolis(Non-Zorn related)

In a message dated 10/18/00 2:15:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:


> Does anyone have any knowledge of the different soundtracks that has been
> made to Fritz Lang's Metropolis?

Art Zoyd has a soundtrack to the movie, don't they?

- --
=dg=

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:52:56 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: berne, eller and barre

anyone have a cd by the Italian band Enten Eller (with
Tim Berne guesting) called "Melquiades" ? your
opinions will be welcome...

>>i wish i had it! i've heard it a couple times and it smokes. don't know why i
didn't buy it at the time.


(how do you pronounce "Barre"?!) thanks..

>>i've always heard it pronounced like 'bar,' but i wouldn't swear on knowing...

kg
np: willie nelson - revolutions of time...the journey (disc 2), in particular
the version of 'night life' with ray price and some excellent playing by willie.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:11:51 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: PROMO: Thomas Lehn/Marcus Schmickler-Bart

sorry for the promotional intrusion, and further apologies if you receive=20
more than one copy of this:

I'm proud to announce the release of the latest CD on my label:

Thomas Lehn/Marcus Schmickler-Bart (Erstwhile 012)

Thomas Lehn and Marcus Schmickler are both well-known electroacoustic=20
musicians from Cologne, but they come from very different backgrounds. Lehn=20
is from the world of improvisation, while Schmickler's previous work lies=20
predominantly in the world of studio production. Lehn is best known for the=20
CD projects Tom and Gerry (Erstwhile), Konk Pack-Big Deep (Grob), and=20
e-rax-Live at the BIMhuis 1999 (X-Or), as well as for his consistently super=
b=20
performances on the European festival circuit. Schmickler has been involved=20
with numerous projects, including the seminal collective Kontakta (Odd Size)=
.=20
As a solo artist, Schmickler has created important works such as Wabi Sabi=20
(A-Musik), as well as three CDs under the name Pluramon, all on Mille=20
Plateaux, including the just released remix project Bit Sand Riders. He's=20
also worked extensively in the house and techno scenes, both on his own and=20
with musicians such as Thomas Brinkmann and Cristian Vogel.

In December of 1998, Schmickler joined the MIMEO, of which Lehn was already=20=
a=20
member, and the two began to collaborate occasionally within the band. This=20
past summer, the duo recorded Bart over the course of two long studio=20
sessions. A brilliant amalgam of the two musicians' strengths, Bart utilizes=
=20
both improvisation and studio postproduction techniques to create a lasting=20
work, combining the feel of a classic INA-GRM record with the raw, crackling=
=20
energy of a free improv session.=20

The unique look of the artwork was created by Cologne graphic designer Heike=
=20
Sperling, in conjunction with the two musicians and Bianca Strauch.

"very cool cd!!! the real sound of cologne! cd of the year potential and all=
=20
that."-Pita

personnel:

Thomas Lehn - analogue synthesizer
Marcus Schmickler - digital synthesizer, computer

track listing:
1. =E2=80=9Egelb=E2=80=9D-9:31
2. Ziege-7:03
3. OS-7:00
4. Du Funktion-30:10
5. Temp Close-5:24

more info available at the following web sites, or contact Erstwhile Records=
=20
at [e-mail]:

http://www.erstwhilerecords.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~gerryhem/lehn.html
http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/musician/mlehn.html

all Erstwhile CDs can be purchased from numerous worldwide distributors, all=
=20
of which are listed on my web site. also, all Erstwhile releases can be=20
purchased via direct mail order, details of which are also on my web site.=20

- -------------------------------------------------

future releases from Erstwhile will include:

010: G=C3=BCnter M=C3=BCller/L=C3=AA Quan Ninh-La Voyelle Liquide (released=20=
October 20)
011: Otomo Yoshihide/Voice Crack-Bits, Bots & Signs  (released mid-November)
013: Axel D=C3=B6rner/Kevin Drumm
014: Stilluppsteypa/TV Pow
015: Phil Durrant/Thomas Lehn/Radu Malfatti
016: Toshimaru Nakamura/Sachiko M.

also available now:

001-VHF-Extracts
002-Haunted House-Up In Flames
003-Earl Howard/Denman Maroney-Fire Song
004-2-Thomas Lehn/Gerry Hemingway-Tom & Gerry (double CD)
005-Keith Rowe/G=C3=BCnter M=C3=BCller/Taku Sugimoto-The World Turned Upside=
 Down
006-Kevin Drumm/Martin T=C3=A9treault-Particles and Smears
007-John Butcher/Phil Durrant-Requests and Antisongs
008-Burkhard Stangl/Christof Kurzmann-Schnee
009-Dean Roberts/Werner Dafeldecker-Aluminium

thanks for reading.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:52:56 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zero Masada once more...

In a message dated Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:22:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Joseph
Zitt <[e-mail]> writes:

<< On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 11:05:05AM -0400, [e-mail] wrote:

> For me, the playing is very boring.  It's loud and soft and dynamic, and
they
> interact, but its still boring.  I feel that they are playing 'jazzily' not
> playing 'jazz.'

Hmm... another redefinition taking place, to sit on the shelf of "Words
That Supposedly Don't Mean What People Mean by Them", along with "styles",
"music", and ... uh ... whatever the others were.

All are directed to Chapter 6 of "Through the Looking Glass and What
Alice Found There", at
http://www.mcs.drexel.edu/~bchar/carroll/alice_25.html#SEC28

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

 >>Wow, pretty stunning rebut there.  I guess since you apparently would
rather insult me than discuss, I'll be a little less subtle.

The playing is SHALLOW.  It sounds like they've listened to jazz, they've
really learned how to imitate what they perceive as the 'style', and they are
convincing because they can play their instrument well.   They do listen and
react, but the reality for me is that their playing is shallow because what
they are doing is pieceing together styles to make what supposedly passes for
original playing, when in fact its a pastiche of other musicians souls.
They've got the 4th rate blues licks, the swoops and honks, the imitation
where one guy mimics the other guy and they whip it into a fren zy, they
spazz out, they play harmonic minor scale variants, etc.  That's as far as
they go.

I really don't mean to upset people who like this music; if it works for you,
then fine, it shouldn't upset you.  This is my viewpoint and its why it
doesn't work for me.  It doesn't mean that these players haven't done
WONDERFUL things in the past elsewhere; they indeed have.

As for your little jab at me for 'redefining' words -  I didn't know that
music was defined by style.  Where did you learn this?  According to you,
that's how it is.  I attempted to characterize my dislike for Masada without
resorting to what I needed to a couple of paragraphs ago, but your insistence
upon tiny little pinpricks against me has caused me to resort to a slightly
harsher approach.  You apparently feel that art is such a neat and tidy
little object than can be easily characterized and boxed, not to mention the
fact that you haven't even attempted to come up with anything at all to
intelligently discuss this.

Then again, if music for you equals styles, then I'm happy for you, because
you will always have it easy.  You'll have nice little boxes in which to fit
everything you want, and then you can throw away what you don't need.

- -matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 13:35:40 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zero Masada once more...

On Thu, Oct 19, 2000 at 01:52:56PM -0400, [e-mail] wrote:
> In a message dated Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:22:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Joseph
> Zitt <[e-mail]> writes:

> As for your little jab at me for 'redefining' words -  I didn't know that
> music was defined by style.  Where did you learn this?  According to you,
> that's how it is.  I attempted to characterize my dislike for Masada without
> resorting to what I needed to a couple of paragraphs ago, but your insistence
> upon tiny little pinpricks against me has caused me to resort to a slightly
> harsher approach.  You apparently feel that art is such a neat and tidy
> little object than can be easily characterized and boxed, not to mention the
> fact that you haven't even attempted to come up with anything at all to
> intelligently discuss this.
>
> Then again, if music for you equals styles, then I'm happy for you, because
> you will always have it easy.  You'll have nice little boxes in which to fit
> everything you want, and then you can throw away what you don't need.

An utterly amazing example of an argument wrapping itself up and
tripping over the shroud. Since none of it bears any resemblance to
anything that could conceivably be read into the message to which it
ostensibly responds, nothing in it remains that is answerable. "That's
glory for you."

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #125
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