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Zorn List Digest      Wednesday, October 18 2000      Volume 03 : Number 122



In this issue:
-
       Re: KF
       Re: Masada = Coleman + Jewish Scales?
       Re: KF
       Sun Ra as the ultimate musician
       SPY vs EYE
       Metropolis(Non-Zorn related)
       More Masada
       Re: KF
       Re: Metropolis(Non-Zorn related)
       RE: Metropolis (Non-Zorn related)
       RE: SPY vs EYE
       Re: KF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:08:59 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: KF

[e-mail] writes:
> For all the Knitting Factory train-spotters: there's an article in this
>  week's Village Voice about their financial troubles

I'm not totally surprised given how lavish the new KF in Hollywood is.  Any
new club should expect to be in the red for at least a few years, but in this
case it will literally be at the expense of KF-NY.

Take a look at the KF-LA calendar and you'll see how slim their bookings
still are, a few months after opening.
http://www.knittingfactory.com/kfla/calendar/index.cfm
While the beer is expensive (gotta recoup them losses after all) and the
place has creepy theme park-like elements, I would still like to see it
thrive for the sake of the music.  I really hope they have the audacity to
book more progressive (for lack of a better word) acts and not simply resort
to booking rock acts that will draw folks in.

My least favorite KFLA moment thusfar was during Wadada Leo Smith's show a
few weeks ago.  Very bright white lights were pointed out from the back of
the stage onto the performers and into the eyes of those of us in the crowd.
From what I could tell this was done for the sake of the 2 guys at the front
of the stage filming the show for KnitMedia.  Another exaple of Dorf losing
sight of things.

jeff caltabiano
n.p. sonny fortune: a better understanding

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:52:36 CEST
From: "Marius Ergo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada = Coleman + Jewish Scales?

Yeah, I've been thinking the same. I mean, I definitely hear the comparison,
but Zorn's stuff is a lot more defined and tight. Another thing is that you
don't really need to have heard a lot of Coleman to see the linking here,
since Masada supposedly is inspired by the 1960 quartet of Higgins, Haden,
Cherry and Coleman.

>From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
>To: "Zorn List" <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Masada = Coleman + Jewish Scales?
>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:24:09 +1000
>
>I've always pretty much gone along with this 'definition' for Masada, but
>today I was listening to one of the cds and came up with the following
>observations/questions:
>I haven't heard the hugest amount of Ornette Coleman (probably about 5
>albums in all, some not more than once) but I couldn't help thinking that
>many of the styles/feels on this particular cd (Gimel) are not derivative
>of
>Coleman at all, and that the parallel is made too quickly simply because of
>the lineup being the same as one of Coleman's. Is this observation
>incorrect? Or can people point me in the direction of Coleman stuff
>sounding
>like Ziphim, Hazor and Hekhal, for example? Also, Masada is incredibly
>tight... would I be correct in saying that Coleman's stuff is generally
>very
>loose (not saying by any means that that is a bad thing) or are there
>Coleman recordings that have a similar tightness to Masada?
>Thanks...
>Julian.
>
>
>-
>

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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:57:41 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: KF

>>Take a look at the KF-LA calendar and you'll see how slim their bookings
still are, a few months after opening.
>>http://www.knittingfactory.com/kfla/calendar/index.cfm

    I'm not sure their bookings are slim or they just never bother to update
their calendar.  I'm getting used to looking at super old info every time I
look at the website.  They have a June 1st screen that pops up every time I
visit and an error screen every time I try to look at Alterknit's calendar
for Nov.  If you look at their employee list at the site, a massive amount of
people are website employees only, probably all pulling down the big bucks as
described in the earlier posting.  They probably aren't missing any
paychecks.  Shouldn't the calendar listing be first priority?  Also, they
have a contact us button, but of course they never respond.
    In the Village Voice article,  it states that the employees who actually
work in the NY club and keep it running aren't getting paid.  One employee
says that" We're all squatters and anarchists here."  That basically means
you have to be a homeless person to afford to work for Dorf(in the club
anyway).  I would hate to see the empire collapse as well, not just for the
clubs but for the label as well.  There are plenty of great releases still
coming out.  Dorf just needs to tone the multimedia crap down til things get
solvent again.
    John Threadgould

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:07:19 -0300
From: mwoodwor <[e-mail]>
Subject: Sun Ra as the ultimate musician

I suggest that there are three different groupings of musicians that we
appreciate/enjoy for different reasons, and are motivated themselves for
different reasons

a) Musician who has some sort of inner feelings or vision that they wish to
express, challenge themselves, develop through their music etc. (e.g. Joe
Morris, Shelly Hirsch), without really worrying so much if the audience will
always necessarily dig it

b) Musician who has a unique style of musicianship or sound that they have
developed and constantly strive to improve (and usually defines their sound)
(e.g. Evan Parker, Joe Maneri), again without necessarily worrying so much if
the audience will dig it

c) Musician who is primarily interested in performing for an audience for the
audiences own enjoyment (e.g. William Breuker Kollektief, Kazutoki Umezu (the
Dr.), and :going out on a limb:, I would say the present day Masada who,
although as challenging and fantastic a group as ever, really seem to
currently be enjoying the 'performing' aspect of the group))

Of course, there is alot of overlap between the above three (each equally
skilled), and often a listener or audience member will not be aware of the
musicians purpose, but my main point here is that an artist like Sun Ra is so
unique and special because he could easily fit into, and be included, in all
three of the above categories, whereas some other musicians and groups would
definitely suit one (or possibly two) of the above categories

Finally, unrelated question, which I know has been covered before a few months
ago, It's finally time for me to start exploring AMM - should I get the Crypt
first???

wudz.
np. Simon Fell - Comp. 30; can't get enough of this one.








- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:12:49 +0000
From: Philippe Dupuis <[e-mail]>
Subject: SPY vs EYE

hello,

- -Finally, I'm not saying that SPY VS, SPY shouldn't be bought by
- -a new Zorn fan ... actually I think they should ... but I just wanna
- -know if there is somebody out there who thinks this album is not
- -so hot.

well, i like the album quite alot. brought me to people like ornette
and tim berne. it's a frenzy. but the ONLY thing that i would have to
mention here is the capture of sound for the drums. it always made
me a bit bummed, that's probably why i don't listen to it as often as
i should. reminds me of some kind of UZEB album or something. all
the echo.

can you imagine if the sound would be along the lines of the bloodcount
records - just raw mania!!!!!!!

don't get me wrong - it's a fucking good album anyways.

as for EYE, i haven't heard NANI NANI - but if it's anything like the
3 tracks on HERETIC with the zorn/eye team it should be awesome.

i'm still a little puzzled about why so many people don't find HERETIC
fantastic. it reminds me of a question i read in a zorn interview ...

*"a friend wanted me to ask, why are you working with eye?"

to which zorn replies

*"now, what a silly question"

indeed.

i haven't heard any BOREDOMS, where would be a good place to start?

thanks,
martin dupuis

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:14:41 CEST
From: "Marius Ergo" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Metropolis(Non-Zorn related)

Does anyone have any knowledge of the different soundtracks that has been
made to Fritz Lang's Metropolis? On my copy the music is tottally amazing,
and I'm dying to find out when it was composed. In the opening credits is
says "Neue musikfassung: Konrad Elfers", but it does not say which issue
ofthe film it is. The music consists of dark industrial rhytms (Not in a
cheesy NIN/Ministry way, more in a shabby-limp-old machine kind of way) and
some freaked out New Orleans-jazzers from hell. There are also moments of
chello/violin-duets(In the more pleasant scenes) and some merry flute stuff
too(In the "Pleasure Garden"-scene). Can someone tell me when this was made,
alternatively give some descriptions of other Metropolis soundtracks?

I know this has nothing to do on this list, but I've asked everywhere, and
no one seems to know anything at all.


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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:32:55 GMT
From: "William York" <[e-mail]>
Subject: More Masada

>I've always pretty much gone along with this 'definition' for Masada, >but
>today I was listening to one of the cds and came up with the >following
>observations/questions: I haven't heard the hugest amount of >Ornette
>Coleman (probably about 5 albums in all, some not more than >once) but I
>couldn't help thinking that many of the styles/feels on >this particular cd
>(Gimel) are not derivative of Coleman at all, and >that the parallel is
>made too quickly simply because of
>the lineup being the same as one of Coleman's. Is this observation
>incorrect?

No, I don't think it's incorrect. I think it's totally correct. When you
hear the same Masada tunes played by different lineups (piano trio,
bass/guitar duo, etc.) it "sounds like" something totally different. Not to
mention that Dave Douglas doesn't sound much at all like Don Cherry, Zorn
doesn't REALLY sound that much like Ornette... I remember listening to
"Yod," (Ten) for the first time, and especially thinking that the
Ornette/Klezmer comparison is not just oversimplified, but in most cases
inaccurate.

>Or can people point me in the direction of Coleman stuff sounding
>like Ziphim, Hazor and Hekhal, for example?

I don't think there is any. I can't match up titles with songs in my head,
but many of the Masada songs seem to me to be written in a style that has
more to do with surf music or spy soundtrack music than Ornette.
"Tahah" is at least one of those.

>Also, Masada is incredibly tight... would I be correct in saying that
> >Coleman's stuff is generally very loose (not saying by any means that
> >that is a bad thing) or are there Coleman recordings that have a >similar
>tightness to Masada?

Again, very well put ... those Ornette quartet albums have a different feel
than MAsada.

As for the "songbook" issue, all he said was that he wanted to have a bunch
of songs that could be played by anybody (well, not "anybody," but any
instrumental setup ... as opposed to Naked City, where that music is written
for the specific instrumentation, or Spillane, where the music is very
studio-based). I don't think that he was necessarily making any any
comparison in terms of quality.

As for the albums being the same: on one hand, they may be. The covers are
similar, the lineup is the same, the general approach is similar. But the
inner details are (obviously) different. Plus, listening to the earlier
Masada CDs and comparing them to the more recent live ones, you'd have to
say there is at lest some evolution in their sound.

Whether it works is personal, I guess. Sometimes I enjoy them, sometimes
not, but I think that at least their more recent live albums show them going
beyond merely playing "styles" and instead playing "music" (and I do
understand this point).

Finally, I think this is a really good point (sorrry, I forget who wrote it,
I just copied and pasted it):

"My main point is more that I've come to accept that what I like doesn't
neccessarily correspond with what's 'important.' At least not in music.

Enough,

WY
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:08:59 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: KF

[e-mail] writes:
> For all the Knitting Factory train-spotters: there's an article in this
>  week's Village Voice about their financial troubles

I'm not totally surprised given how lavish the new KF in Hollywood is.  Any
new club should expect to be in the red for at least a few years, but in this
case it will literally be at the expense of KF-NY.

Take a look at the KF-LA calendar and you'll see how slim their bookings
still are, a few months after opening.
http://www.knittingfactory.com/kfla/calendar/index.cfm
While the beer is expensive (gotta recoup them losses after all) and the
place has creepy theme park-like elements, I would still like to see it
thrive for the sake of the music.  I really hope they have the audacity to
book more progressive (for lack of a better word) acts and not simply resort
to booking rock acts that will draw folks in.

My least favorite KFLA moment thusfar was during Wadada Leo Smith's show a
few weeks ago.  Very bright white lights were pointed out from the back of
the stage onto the performers and into the eyes of those of us in the crowd.
From what I could tell this was done for the sake of the 2 guys at the front
of the stage filming the show for KnitMedia.  Another exaple of Dorf losing
sight of things.

jeff caltabiano
n.p. sonny fortune: a better understanding

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:54:34 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Metropolis(Non-Zorn related)

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 20:14:41 CEST  "Marius Ergo" wrote:
>
> Does anyone have any knowledge of the different soundtracks that has been
> made to Fritz Lang's Metropolis? On my copy the music is tottally amazing,

Not sure if that answers your question but there are at least two compositions
under the name Metropolis:

    - one by Willem Breuker
    - one by Mike Westbrook

No idea if they were ever used to accompany the movie (in fact, not even
sure if both were even written because of the movie).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:02:56 -0400
From: [e-mail] (Benjamin Pequet)
Subject: RE: Metropolis (Non-Zorn related)

At 08:14 PM 10/18/00 +0000, "Marius Ergo" wrote:
>Does anyone have any knowledge of the different soundtracks that has been
>made to Fritz Lang's Metropolis? On my copy the music is

Can you have heard Reg Hartt's arrangement - combining both modern music
(including work by kraftwerk) and classical pieces?
Unfortunately the soundtrack of moroder has been more commonly associated
with the movie.

In regards to the different versions of the film / soundtrack, see
http://www.persocom.com.br/brasilia/metropo.htm
where one learns amongst other things that:
<<unlike some people say, there is no "music by Queen" in Moroder's
version. There is just one music by Freddie Mercury, vocalist of Queen.
This music plays during less than 2 minutes in the entire movie. Queen's
clip for the music "Radio Ga Ga" uses many Metropolis's scenes, but Queen
does not play music in Moroder's version and "Radio Ga Ga" is not part of
the soundtrack>>
For a discography of mordorer see
http://www.angelfire.com/de/moroder/detailed2.html

You were not far off with nine inch nails, they did a cover of some scenes,
downloadable at http://www.killpopradio.com/met.html




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:00:12 -0700
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: SPY vs EYE

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Philippe Dupuis
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 8:13 AM

> i haven't heard any BOREDOMS, where would be a good place to start?

Two albums: "Chocolate Synthesizer," the best of the spazz-era Boredoms (and
closer in spirit to "Heretic), and "Super Ae," which is total acid-fried
psych-trance madness. The latter is quite exhausting to listento, but for
that matter, so is the former.

Later,
Ben

np: john watermann, "calcutta gas chamber"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:20:26 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: KF

[e-mail] writes:
>  I'm not sure their bookings are slim or they just never bother to update
>  their calendar.  I'm getting used to looking at super old info every time
I
>  look at the website.

Yeah, their listing in the paper or over the phone is probably the best
source.  So much for being the groundbreaking club of the 21st century.

>  They have a June 1st screen that pops up every time I
>  visit and an error screen every time I try to look at Alterknit's calendar
>  for Nov.

From what I've seen, they only post the current month's AlterKnit calendar.

> Shouldn't the calendar listing be first priority?

Sure, but their web people are too busy doing jazze.com.

>  Also, they
>  have a contact us button, but of course they never respond.

Well, I signed up online for a "Free Beer" at KFLA a few months ago.  It was
supposed to automatically sign me up for KnitNotes and I was to redeem my
beer at the box by giving them my phone number, which they'd check off on
their computer.  When I did go to the box office, they looked at me curiously
and told me to talk to the manager.  When I spoke to him, he said "everything
got all screwed up" and exasperatingly told the bartender "just give these
guys a beer on the house."  I got my free beer (with no help from the
website), but I'm still waiting for my KnitKnotes.

>  I would hate to see the empire collapse as well, not just for the
>  clubs but for the label as well.

Another story.  I bought the 'Wildflowers' set and was charged $24 since the
woman working the merchandise desk at KFLA couldn't figure out that it was
actually 3 CDs not 2.  They've gotten enough of my money already, so I
certainly didn't feel bad about it.

>  Dorf just needs to tone the multimedia crap down til things get
>  solvent again.

Or just strictly become a multimedia company.  He seems much less concerned
about presenting live music than developing multimedia, which is a shame.

jeff
n.p. richard davis: forest flowers

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #122
*******************************


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