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Zorn List Digest      Wednesday, October 18 2000      Volume 03 : Number 121



In this issue:
-
       Re: answer to several threads...
       re: Why did Naked City Stop Perfoming?
       merkin masada (long)
       Re: Why did Naked City Stop Perfoming?
       Re: Odp: Zero Masada would be enough
       Re: AMM/Autumn Uprising
       speed copied byron ?
       Re: Zero Masada would be enough
       Re: Zero Masada would be enough
       Re: Odp: Zero Masada would be enough
       Tonic
       Re: Tonic
       Re: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?
       Masada = Coleman + Jewish Scales?
       Re: Tonic
       Re: KF

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 02:15:26 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: answer to several threads...

> Naninani - i've given it a listen this morning at a cd store and he first
> track got my first smile this week. the disparity between the sax solo and
> the machingun and suffering is just hillarious.

Yes, this is the "moment" I was referring to. It's actually the reason why I
have the cd in my collection today. I suppose that track with the fire
engine and ambulance is reasonably funny as well for a listen or two. But
the inclusion of that 18 minute scream track really annoys me...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:17:41 EDT
From: "Bruno Bissonnette" <[e-mail]>
Subject: re: Why did Naked City Stop Perfoming?

Well I was the one who asked Frith that a long while ago... and for some
reason I kept his answer, which is:

Bruno - I think it takes courage to know when you've done what you set
out to do and then move on - Naked City is certainly one of the most
successful projects any of the members have been involved in on a
commercial level, we could tour til doomsday and live very comfortably,
but John has a lot of fish to fry and so do we, so I figure that's great
for everyone....
Maybe the reunion tour will happen when we're in our 80's?
(the following is his answer to my other question: "did you ever feel
limited by playing just bass guitar in NC?")
You should know that I have never regarded playing bass as a
limitation.  I love to play bass, and I miss playing with Joey B more
than I can say.  It's another instrument, with its own constraints to
overcome, and I've been playing it at least as long as I've played
guitar, without ever confusing one with the other.
(and another question, which was something like: "any special moments you
remember from your time in NC?")
As for recollections of the band, that would take a book   -    maybe
one day...
cheers
fred

>Hello,
>
>Fred Frith wrote a good answer to that question on his mailing list >some
>time ago. Maybe somebody out there have it, or somebody would be >so kind
>to go through the archive for the rest of us? :-)
>
>ARTHUR_G
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 19:09:53 +0300
From: Leonides Kluev <[e-mail]>
Subject: merkin masada (long)

 AG> Has the Bar Kokhbah ensemble ever played any of the Ennio Morricone
 AG> songs in concert? I think they do one or two on the new version of The
 AG> Big Gundown, right?

    ßbsolutely.

    John Zorn - The Big Gundown. John Zorn Plays the Music of Ennio Morricone.
15th Anniversary Edition. Tzadic TZ 7328. (C)(P)2000 Tzadik.

    (Bonus tracks)

11. The Sicilian Clan 3:20
    Mark Feldman (violin); Eric Friedlander (cello); Marc Ribot (guitar); Greg
Cohen (bass); Joey Baron (drums); Cyro Baptisto (percussion).
12. Macchie Solari 3:29
    Miho Hatori (voice); Jamie Saft (keyboards).
13. The Ballad of Hank McGain (vocal) 5:27
    Mike Patton (voice); Jamie Saft (keyboards); Cyro Baptisto (percussion).
14. Svegliatti & Uccidi 3:03
    Marc Ribot (guitar); Derec Bailey (guitar); Trevor Dunn (bass); Joey Baron
(drums).
15. Chi Mai 3:06
    Mark Feldman (violin); Eric Friedlander (cello); Marc Ribot (guitar); Greg
Cohen (bass); Joey Baron (drums); Cyro Baptisto (percussion).
16. The Ballad of Hank McGain (instrumental) 5:25
    Jamie Saft (keyboards); Cyro Baptisto (percussion).

All compositions by Ennio Morricone



Leonides


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:42:52 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Why did Naked City Stop Perfoming?

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:47:08 GMT  "Arthur Gadney" wrote:
>
> Still the mystery about "Radio Part 2" remains. Frith was also asked about
> this but more or less avoided answering. Why did they feel to stop it in the
> middle of a record?

Since they did not even start to record it, we cannot say in the middle.

It seems like RADIO 2 was just an idea of a record that never concretized.

    Patrice (back from vacations).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:41:21 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Odp: Zero Masada would be enough

In a message dated 10/18/00 5:25:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< What's wrong with that? Remember that JZ arranges those tunes for different
 lineups. Reinevetnting the notion of a standard?
     I must say that i think there's something wrong with those masada
 complaints. First, I think that, as i wrote in my previous post, saying that
 masada = OC + jewish scales is completely wrong. Listen to 'kaztatz' form
 gimmel, and you'll see what i mean (or you'll tell me that i'm wrong).
 Second, I do not like the 'progressive' ideas that undrelie what some of you
 write. In fact, everybody seems to agree that the musical abilities of the
 band are great. The wrong thing is that there's no 'revolution', no 'new
 things' in the masada stuff (well, and what about those bar kokhba and
 circle maker etc. stuff?). It's like if the music was wrong from a moral,
 not musical, standpoint. I do not like that. One can use the past if one
 wants to. Look at the beauty of Stravinsky's neoclassical works (Look at
 them and flame on...;-)). Look at the way IS used the old themes and ideas
 in a new, creative way. JZ is doing the VERY SAME THING imo.

  >>
First of all, reinventing the idea of a standard is not something one can
just decide to do.  Even if one's works are eventually accepted as standards,
its the rest of the world that passes judgement on that, not the artist.
Rearranging a tune 1,000 times does not a standard make.  A similar thing
applies to the songbook idea, not to mention the idea the a comparison of the
Masada 'songbook' with that of Monk is utterly laughable anyway.

Speaking for myself, something does not have to be revolutionary in order to
be interesting.  Its just that I find Masada utterly boring.  The concept
behind it could MAYBE be interesting, but the execution of it is not.  I have
a feeling that most others on the list who don't like it would feel vaguely
similar.

Morally speaking, perhaps there is something wrong with releasing album after
album of the SAME stuff after you've gained fans that have 'trusted' you.  I
mean, the whole Masada IV thing, forcing people at first to buy all the
others and send in for a 20 minute release of the SAME thing?  Then releasing
it and charging almost full price?

As for Stravinsky, I've been listening to Strav for about 15 years and do not
hear any shred of his influence.  In fact the description of Masada that you
take issue with is as concise as accurate as one could get.  In can think of
few musics that can be summed up so neatly.

- -matt mitchell

ps Stravinsky's 'neoclassic' stuff was always his least interesting music, as
far as I was concerned, at least.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:46:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: AMM/Autumn Uprising

    As someone whose chief interest is the jazz/free
jazz tradition, I had similar thoughts. Attending all
three nights of the Autumn Uprising, I thought the two
most praiseworthy bands after AAM were KONK and
pianist Dan DeChellis' trio. Both were what I would
call 2000 mainstream jazz bands, working in the
post-Ornette, post-Coltrane tradition.

I already knew of the fine work of Charlie Kohlhase,
Nate McBride and Curt Newton, but Taylor Ho Bynum also
impressed as a endlessly inventive trumpeter. The same
experimentation illuminated the work of percussionist
Ravish Momin who played with DeChellis.

AAM was particularly noteworthy because, as Brian
said, the members were actually doing what many of the
other bands were attempting to emulate. Most
fascinating for me in the performance was to watch the
movement of the musicians that translated certain
gestures into the sounds you hear on the CDs.

That said, I'm going to be in the minority (of one?)
here and say that I found the Rowe solo only
moderately interesting. The support and sounding
board(s) he gets from Tilbury and Prevost definitely
help paint the overall improv picture. Without them,
and despite his many effects, he seemed searching for
what wasn't there.

I should also try to be positive, but I found two of
the groups really off putting. Due Process may have
been noisy and lively. But the schtick of playing with
amps, tape recorders, a turntable and toys wearied
very quickly. And one member's leaping around in front
of his deafening toys, reminded me of nothing so much
as a teenager pretending to play air guitar while
blasting Led Zepplin tapes.

Barn Owl was disappointing for the opposite reason.
Seemingly very young, the band members seemed to think
that if everything was played very, very softly and
perhaps at random it would approximate an AAM sound.
It didn't, any more than a high school Dixieland band
reading a "St. Louis Blues" chart sounds like The Hot
Five.

Ken Waxman

(N.P. AAM: Before driving to the chapel..
 Before that: Henry "Red" Allen: His Best Recordings
 Before That:Kidd Jordan/Joel Futtereman: Revelation)


- --- "R. Lynn Rardin" <[e-mail]>
wrote: Whether or not the preceeding groups were
successful, the simple fact that we heard 4 groups
prior to AMM taking the stage, several of which
"plowed similar areas" imagine how tough it would be
to play on the same bill as AMM, especially if your
music was in a similar vein to their work?! It might
have been a  smart move to program a bit more variety
on Saturday
night.



_______________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:00:53 +0200
From: "Rob, the Belgian guy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: speed copied byron ?

Zorn-agains,

Did any of you notice the apparent similarity of "Graphic Ridiculous" by
Chris Speed on 'Iffy' and "Bernhard Goetz, James Ramseur And Me"  by Don
Byron on 'Romance with the Unseen' ?

Can this happen by accident ?

Rob.....................


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:50:43 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough

In a message dated 00-10-17 12:04:42 EDT, you write:
>From: <[e-mail]>
>To: <[e-mail]>
>> This idea of "importance" that's been being bandied around lately, of
>whether
>> or not something is revoultionary, reactionary, original or derivative,
>> strikes me as being much ado about nothing.
>> I seek out what I enjoy listening to. Important? History will
>I think for some people, these two areas probably largely overlap.  I know
>that personally, I'm a very critical listener, and I usually don't enjoy
>music that seems derivative or strongly reminiscent of something I've heard
>before.  I don't mean that in some kind of intellectual or analytical way; I
>just mean that music that sounds terribly familiar and/or doesn't offer a
>new challenge usually doesn't end up being interesting to listen to.

Yeah, that's probably true for me as well, but less so than it used to be. I
mean, I used to consider it a guilty pleasure how much more I enjoy the solo
piano music of Grieg than I do Schoenberg. Schoenberg is certainly more
original and influential than Grieg, but I could care less at this point. (I
still have a soft spot for Webern and Berg, though.)

>Which two?

The duet with Cecil Taylor from the big FMP Berlin '88 box (the only disc of
it I don't like), and "Yankees" with Zorn & Lewis.

> As for the jackhammer comparisons, you
>should check out some acoustic Bailey, as he can frequently be quite
>lyrical.  Try "Aida" if it's still floating around anywhere.

It wasn't meant to suggest a parallel in sound, just a parallel in how much
it does for me personally on a musical level.

>You'd rather listen to the Backstreet Boys, yeesh. . .

Yeeshed as charged.

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 11:56:35 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zero Masada would be enough

In a message dated 00-10-18 08:43:59 EDT, [e-mail] writes:
>On rec.music.bluenote a week or two ago you said you'd only heard the
>duo with Cecil Taylor; what have you heard since?

Yankees (at your suggestion). I'm not sorry I did, though I can't say it
changed my feelings.

My main point is more that I've come to accept that what I like doesn't
neccessarily correspond with what's 'important.' At least not in music. In
medicine, well, that's another story ;-)

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 02:59:51 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: Zero Masada would be enough

> Rearranging a tune 1,000 times does not a standard make.  A similar thing
> applies to the songbook idea, not to mention the idea the a comparison of
the
> Masada 'songbook' with that of Monk is utterly laughable anyway.

As someone said before, a songbook is a book of songs... that is all...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:04:17 +0100
From: Marcel Cobussen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tonic

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I will be visiting NY next week. I would like to see some concert in The
Tonic. Can anybody tell me the address of this place?

Thanks

- --
Marcel Cobussen
Erasmus University Rotterdam
FHKW
Postbus 1738
3000 DR Rotterdam

tel. [phone] (work)
tel. [phone] (private)
fax. [phone]


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tel;work:P.O. Box 1738, 3000 DR Rotterdam
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- --------------B7A2F5B2E36CDEB19E849F57--


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:07:41 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Tonic

In a message dated 10/18/00 12:05:27 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Can anybody tell me the address of this place? >>

all the info you need is at www.tonic107.com.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:22:57 +0200
From: Julien Quint <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: What is the Worst Zorn Release?

I've never listened to "Nani Nani" or "Weird Little Boy" since they got such
bad reviews on the list. I think the two worst Zorn CDs that I have are the
Knitting Factory Cobra and "Taboo & Exile". The packaging of the latter is
really great, which redeems it a bit; the CD itself is not that bad on its own
but seeing all the people involved it should have been so much better.

- --
Julien



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 03:24:09 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada = Coleman + Jewish Scales?

I've always pretty much gone along with this 'definition' for Masada, but
today I was listening to one of the cds and came up with the following
observations/questions:
I haven't heard the hugest amount of Ornette Coleman (probably about 5
albums in all, some not more than once) but I couldn't help thinking that
many of the styles/feels on this particular cd (Gimel) are not derivative of
Coleman at all, and that the parallel is made too quickly simply because of
the lineup being the same as one of Coleman's. Is this observation
incorrect? Or can people point me in the direction of Coleman stuff sounding
like Ziphim, Hazor and Hekhal, for example? Also, Masada is incredibly
tight... would I be correct in saying that Coleman's stuff is generally very
loose (not saying by any means that that is a bad thing) or are there
Coleman recordings that have a similar tightness to Masada?
Thanks...
Julian.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:37:30 -0400
From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Tonic

><< Can anybody tell me the address of this place? >>
>
>all the info you need is at www.tonic107.com.

Or perhaps the more memorable www.tonicnyc.com

Dan Hewins

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:46:09 -0400
From: Dan Hewins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: KF

- --============_-1240234877==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

At 11:46 PM -0400 10/17/00, Jesse Kudler wrote:
>For all the Knitting Factory train-spotters: there's an article in this
>week's Village Voice about their financial troubles
>
>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0042/sotc.shtml

This article is especially interesting in light of the job posting I
saw on Monter.com recently:

US-NY-New York City-#2 leader/COO/CFO
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mid-sized(75 employees) music/internet focused company with
operations in LA & NY needs strong #2 person, budget and accounting
versed, excellent & strong people skills, biz dev & contracts easy,
lots of experience in entertainment and/or media industry,
entrepenural minded. Chairman/CEO looking for someone to share
responsibilty to build a company as it grows from current 15m in
business to 200m in business over next 3 years. Hard work and
dedication a must. Send me an email with explanation of why it is
you. KnitMedia/Knitting Factory, [e-mail], fax: [phone]

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Additional Information
Salary: $100,000.00 to $175,000.00 per year
Position Type: Employee
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contact Information
Michael Dorf
[e-mail]
KnitMedia/Knitting Factory
74 Leonard Street
NY NY 10013
Fax: [phone]



Hmmmm...

Dan Hewins
- --============_-1240234877==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { margin-top: 0 ; margin-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Re: KF</title></head><body>
<div>At 11:46 PM -0400 10/17/00, Jesse Kudler wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite>For all the Knitting Factory
train-spotters: there's an article in this<br>
week's Village Voice about their financial troubles<br>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite>http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0042/s<span
></span>otc.shtml</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div>This article is especially interesting in light of the job
posting I saw on Monter.com recently:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font size="+2" color="#000000"><b>US-NY-New York City-#2
leader/COO/CFO</b></font><font face="Times" size="+1"
color="#000000"><br>
- -----------------------------------------<span
></span>-------------------------------<br>
</font><font color="#000000">Mid-sized(75 employees) music/internet
focused company with operations in LA & NY needs strong #2
person, budget and accounting versed, excellent & strong people
skills, biz dev & contracts easy, lots of experience in
entertainment and/or media industry, entrepenural minded.
Chairman/CEO looking for someone to share responsibilty to build a
company as it grows from current 15m in business to 200m in business
over next 3 years. Hard work and dedication a must. Send me an email
with explanation of why it is you. KnitMedia/Knitting
Factory,</font><font color="#0000FF"><u> [e-mail]</u></font><font
color="#000000">, fax: [phone]<br>
<font face="Times" size="+1"><br>
- -----------------------------------------<span
></span>-------------------------------<br>
</font></font><font size="+2" color="#000000"><b>Additional
Information</b></font><font color="#000000"><br>
<b>Salary:</b> $100,000.00 to $175,000.00 per year<b><br>
Position Type:</b> Employee<br>
- -----------------------------------------<span
></span>-------------------------------<br>
<font size="+2"><b>Contact Information</b></font><br>
Michael Dorf<br>
</font><font color="#0000FF"><u>[e-mail]</u></font><font
color="#000000"><br>
KnitMedia/Knitting Factory<br>
74 Leonard Street<br>
NY NY 10013<br>
Fax: [phone]</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">Hmmmm...</font></div>
<div><font color="#000000"><br></font></div>
<div><font color="#000000">Dan Hewins</font></div>
</body>
</html>
- --============_-1240234877==_ma============--

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V3 #121
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