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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V3 #67
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, September 22 2000 Volume 03 : Number 067
In this issue:
-
Re: REVIEW: Douglas/Mengelberg/Jones/Bennink, NYC 9/20/00 (long)
Re: REVIEW: Douglas/Mengelberg/Jones/Bennink, NYC 9/20/00 (long)
Re: REVIEW: Douglas/Mengelberg/Jones/Bennink, NYC 9/20/00 (long)
Re: big books (was great REVIEW)
Re: Re: big books (was great REVIEW)
Re: surrealism/ =?iso-8859-1?Q?Szemz=F6?=
Re: DDouglas, AShepp, HanB
Newbie seeking help
Re: zorn in brussels
[none]
How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
Re: Newbie seeking help
Re: Newbie seeking help
How Much Effort Is Pirated Reviewing? (bailey/bennink)
Re: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
Re: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
Re: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
Re: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
Large Groups
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:31:37 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: REVIEW: Douglas/Mengelberg/Jones/Bennink, NYC 9/20/00 (long)
Or at least the most words...
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - Brad Mehldau, "29 Palms," 'Places' (Warner Bros.)
s~Z wrote:
> I'd say reading Moby Dick is bringing out the best in Steve Smith.
>
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:34:23 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: REVIEW: Douglas/Mengelberg/Jones/Bennink, NYC 9/20/00 (long)
"A screaming comes across the stage.."
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - Brad Mehldau, "29 Palms," 'Places' (Warner Bros.)
s~Z wrote:
> I can't wait to see his reviews when he picks up Gravity's Rainbow!
>
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:37:44 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: REVIEW: Douglas/Mengelberg/Jones/Bennink, NYC 9/20/00 (long)
Well, according to Keith, there's Gaddis and Grass...
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - Brad Mehldau, "Madrid," 'Places' (Warner Bros.)
"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 14:49:49 -0700 "s~Z" wrote:
> >
> > I'd say reading Moby Dick is bringing out the best in Steve Smith.
>
> But the scary thing is: what's left to do in life once you have read
> MOBY DICK ? :-)
>
> Patrice Roussel.
>
> -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:44:50 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: big books (was great REVIEW)
"Caleb T. Deupree" wrote:
> At 05:00 PM 9/21/00 -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> >
> >Too hard, what about THE DEATH OF VIRGIL by Hermann Broch or THE MAN
> >WITHOUT QUALITY by Musil?
>
> Oh yeah, easy ones. My personal massive favorite recently is Infinite Jest.
Mine was 'Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire,' the last thing I read before
starting 'Moby Dick.' I read the other three Potters in the weeks preceding.
(On the more serious side, I also greatly enjoyed Kurt Andersen's 'Turn of the
Century.')
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - Brad Mehldau, "Amsterdam," 'Places' (Warner Bros.)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:50:34 -0400
From: wlt4@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Re: big books (was great REVIEW)
>I read the other three Potters in the weeks preceding.
I did the same thing & wish the whole series was finished to do them together since they kept getting better and better.
Lang
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:05:52 +0200
From: stamil@t-online.de (Chris Genzel)
Subject: Re: surrealism/ =?iso-8859-1?Q?Szemz=F6?=
>> come up with numerous surrealist compositions.
Just an idea, but doesn't the whole technique of overdubbing imply
surrealism? It portraits something which isn't possible in
reality - such as a vocalist singing with more than one voice at
a given time, or a person playing a duet with himself - so it
transcends reality and becomes surreal.
By the way, Nicky Skopelitis' EKSTASIS has always struck me as
being very surreal. Perhaps that's because there are so many
world music styles fused together.
> And you know what? I believe it is used (in English) on Tibor
> Szemz÷s remarkable half-hour piece, _Tractatus_ (Leo Records).
> Throughout the piece, quote from W. are murmured gently in a
> half-dozen different languages. A must for fans of the philosoph
> and of still and yet complexly unfolding music.
I second this recommendation. TRACTATUS is a beautiful piece of
music, very quiet & peaceful, quite minimalistic. It's actually
one of the most relaxing things I've heard - and yet it's really
fascinating. It works for both active and passive listening. I
didn't even know Szemz÷ at the time I bought this, I just got
it because I saw that it dealt with Wittgenstein ...
Kind regards,
- Chris.
___________________________________________________________________
** Christian Genzel -- email: stamil@t-online.de **
** Homepage at http://home.t-online.de/home/stamil **
Discographies of Herbie Hancock, Bennie Maupin & Michael Beinhorn
The Herbie Hancock Mailing List
___________________________________________________________________
"When I came home I expected a surprise
and there was no surprise for me,
so, of course, I was surprised." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 11:12:51 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: DDouglas, AShepp, HanB
Emmanouil Papagiannakis wrote:
> Dear list I have Two requests:
> * any intelligent comments on Dave Douglas' Stargazer? How
> does it compare with Convergence for example?
It's a much more conservative album, in that it's scored for
conventional jazz sextet and is intended as a tribute to Wayne Shorter.
A fine, fine starightahead jazz album with a couple of Shorter tunes and
a slew of well-conceived originals in homage.
> ** after the hot Shepp review, which of his records should
> I look for??
'Live in San Francisco' (Impulse) is roughly analogous to the experience
I described. Most of Shepp's early Impulse recordings are worthwhile...
it's hard to go wrong with 'Four for Trane,' 'Fire Music,' and 'On This
Night.' Others will undoubtedly weigh in with others. There's some
good stuff to be gleaned from the BYG recordings, some of which are
available on Charly ('Blase' is a favorite of mine). 'Live at the
Donaueschingen Festival' (MPS) is one long, burning tune with Rudd and
Moncur backed by Jimmy Garrison and Beaver Harris. And the two volumes
from Montreux in 1975 on Freedom are a pretty straightforward but
steaming pair of sessions with quintet.
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - Brad Mehldau, "Paris," 'Places' (Warner Bros.)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 10:51:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Adam Taylor Tierney <attierne@indiana.edu>
Subject: Newbie seeking help
Hey everybody, I'm new to all this John Zorn stuff, but I've heard
enough to know that I really dig him. Could you guys tell me what the best
Masada and Filmworks albums are to buy, since there's so many of each?
Also, do Zorn and Zorn people ever, ever make it out to the Midwest, or am
I going to have to keep hearing about these concerts in NYC and being
incredibly envious? Thanks.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 18:34:20 +0200
From: patRice <gda@datacomm.ch>
Subject: Re: zorn in brussels
Peter Gannushkin wrote:
.
>
> Do you know where are they going to play in Czech Republic?
> I'm really interested in it this information.
> If you don't know the venue could just send me the web site where I
> can track information about it?
>
>
you can find all relevant info here:
http://www.ejn.it/saudades/
patRice
np: marc almond & la magia, live
nr: skin&ink mag
- -
------------------------------
Date:
From:
Subject: [none]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:56:49 -0400
From: David Keffer <keffer@planetc.com>
Subject: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
In light of the current discussion concerning
how much effort one is willing to put forth in
terms of the difficulty of understanding
post-modern literature and music, I provide a
nice little excerpt from an essay by the
Pulitzer prize-winning American poet Philip Levine,
from "The Bread of Time" (Alfred A. Knopf, 1994)
In fact I know I won't go back, any more than I'll go back to the seminar
room on
the second floor of Old Main to hear once again the good Dr. Prescott
lecture on
James Joyce. Chances are that the professor has joined the final
bibliography of
the air, and there's no one to hear the traffic break in on his serious,
hushed
voice. Who could ever forget the final day in his Ulysses seminar? After
folding
his small, delicate hands on the closed book, he removed his glasses so
that he
seemed in his near-sightedness to be looking at all of us and none of us. "Are
there any last questions?" he said. We were twelve totally befuddled students
who knew at least that it was too late to begin asking. No one said a word.
Dr.
Prescott began his summation, the magical key by means of which we would
open every impossible, Byzantine text. "As you may know, Joyce was a writer
who asked his reader to give him a lifetime," he said. "I am that reader,
and I can
tell you it was a wasted life."
The point in supplying this excerpt to the current discussion is that,
I think, one wasted life is enough.
I think a similar argument can be made for music. At some point the
effort out weighs the rewards.
David K.
p.s. Comparing the difficulty in reading Moby Dick
to Finnegan's Wake is not fair to Melville.
p.p.s. A couple weeks ago I posted a request for a review of
Derek Bailey and Hans Bennink:
Post improvisation 1: when we're smiling, Incus CD 34. (1999)
Post improvisation 2: air mail special, Incus CD 35. (1999)
Is it possible that not a single soul on the Zorn List has heard these cds?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:02:28 -0400
From: mattu@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Newbie seeking help
Hello,
I haven't heard them all, but I like Masada 5 & Filmworks 2.
I don't think the Zorn clan get out this way too often, but Masada did play Chicago's Jazz Fest last summer.
Matt
Adam Taylor Tierney <attierne@indiana.edu> wrote:
> Hey everybody, I'm new to all this John Zorn stuff, but I've heardenough to know that I really dig him. Could you guys tell me what the best
Masada and Filmworks albums are to buy, since there's so many of each?
Also, do Zorn and Zorn people ever, ever make it out to the Midwest, or am
I going to have to keep hearing about these concerts in NYC and being
incredibly envious? Thanks.
- -
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:03:49 EDT
From: Samerivertwice@aol.com
Subject: Re: Newbie seeking help
In a message dated 9/22/00 11:53:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
attierne@indiana.edu writes:
<< Hey everybody, I'm new to all this John Zorn stuff, but I've heard
enough to know that I really dig him. Could you guys tell me what the best
Masada and Filmworks albums are to buy, since there's so many of each?
Also, do Zorn and Zorn people ever, ever make it out to the Midwest, or am
I going to have to keep hearing about these concerts in NYC and being
incredibly envious? Thanks. >>
Adam,
My personal Masada/Filmworks albums are:
Masada 1, 2, 9, 10, and Live in Sevilla 2000 (the best live Masada album out
there for my money. The sound and performances are superior to all the
others.)
Filmworks -- 7 is a lot of fun, 8 is the most melodic and beautiful
As for books, any Nabokov fans out there? (No one responded to my "Any Elvis
Costello fans out there?" from last night. I guess Elvis isn't big with you
guys. You know Marc Ribot, Bill Frisell and Greg Cohen have played with him,
right?) :^)
Again, just my $.02,
Tom
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:34:48 CDT
From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <thesubtlebody@hotmail.com>
Subject: How Much Effort Is Pirated Reviewing? (bailey/bennink)
>From: David Keffer <keffer@planetc.com>
>p.p.s. A couple weeks ago I posted a request for a review of
>Derek Bailey and Hans Bennink:
>Post improvisation 1: when we're smiling, Incus CD 34. (1999)
>Post improvisation 2: air mail special, Incus CD 35. (1999)
>Is it possible that not a single soul on the Zorn List has heard these cds?
I have not heard these CDs, but in lieu of any response, here is a
mini-review I happened across about three weeks ago on Henry Kaiser's
website:
"The prototypical improvisors: English guitarist and Dutch drum-maniac. Not
playing together, in-the-tradition, in a room, but duetting via airmail and
overdubbing. Each one sent the other a tape of themselves practicing and
then they recorded themselves playing (and speaking!) along with each other.
Beyond playing with their instruments, the two manage to play with their
history, relationships, reality contexts, and home environments. This is a
new and successful experiment in creating music together by two masters of
the unexpected. If you only bought one CD, then I would suggest Air Mail
Special as being the more interesting of these two fascinating documents."
http://www.henrykaiser.net/suggests_ebe_99.html
Kaiser was picking the CDs as some of his favorites of 1999. Hope this is
helpful. I would also recommend the "Henry Suggests..." portion of the site
to anyone interested in a world of interesting music, but bereft of
suggestions. My tastes don't really converge with Kaiser's, but he makes a
good-faith effort to share his enthusiasm, and I've bought many excellent
records on his site's recommendation.
- ----s
N.P. Muller/Erik M/Voice Crack: POIRE_Z
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 13:52:42 CDT
From: "Kristopher S. Handley" <thesubtlebody@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
>From: David Keffer <keffer@planetc.com>
>The point in supplying this excerpt to the current discussion is that,
>I think, one wasted life is enough.
>I think a similar argument can be made for music. At some point the
>effort out weighs the rewards.
Standardizing those parameters legislates mediocrity. So-called purveyors
of PoMo---let's say, Cultural Studies or critical theory---have their share
of hacks and careerists, but probably no more than their share. I find
myself torqued when the suggestion is made that it's somehow an utter "waste
of a life" to spend one's years in pursuit of the worthless or illusory
(i.e. "postmodernism"---which, BTW, is.......?) as opposed to the worthwhile
or "substantial". Which is....? Classics? "Real" scholarship? Wynton
Marsalis? Having kids? Mainstream music that is somehow quanitifiably
(measured by record sales) more relevant to the human condition? A Haino
Keiji website? Or is it _obsession_ or fixation which is being indicted in
the story you recount? But aren't there unhappy obsessives whose lives make
ours that much richer? So must we then live for our own edification and
"actualization"? I refer back to what Absurdbastard (no offense, chum) and
perhaps Joseph Zitt were suggesting: if one is approaching a text or
experience for some specific, essential discovery, and they don't hit the
mark, the experience would seem to be a waste of time, or pointless, or the
text deficient. Often our efforts are simply not up to the task, but that
probably has very little to do with the worthiness of the text in question:
we just badly picked our battles. Jacques Lacan is almost impenetrable, but
Slavoj Zizek is lots of fun. I won't listen to the Spice Girls, but I'm
glad Jim O'Rourke does. I think.
- -----s
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:26:17 EDT
From: Nudeants@aol.com
Subject: Re: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
In a message dated 9/22/00 1:53:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
keffer@planetc.com writes:
<< p.p.s. A couple weeks ago I posted a request for a review of
Derek Bailey and Hans Bennink:
Post improvisation 1: when we're smiling, Incus CD 34. (1999)
Post improvisation 2: air mail special, Incus CD 35. (1999)
Is it possible that not a single soul on the Zorn List has heard these cds?
>>
They are great, of course, if you like both artists. I'm really fond of the
sound of both disks. I forget which goes with which title, but the dark
orange cover is the one which Han recorded and sent to Bailey for
overdubbing, while the light blue covered-one is the opposite.
I just realized I'm taking something for granted here. Both disks are
completely improvised, with one musician recording himself at home, sending
the tapes to the other musician, who then responds to and improvises along
with the tape.
The Bailey recorded/Han overdubbed one is shorter pieces and a larger number
of them, and its almost completely, if not exclusively, acoustic.
If you like both artists, its really six of one/half dozen kind of deal here.
I'm curious; what are examples of music where the effort outweighs the
rewards?
- -matt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 14:48:43 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
On Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 03:26:17PM -0400, Nudeants@aol.com wrote:
> I'm curious; what are examples of music where the effort outweighs the
> rewards?
On the composer's part:
A whole lot of serialism, etc, where painstaking calculation and
permutation results in bloops and farts.
On the performer's part:
Almost anything that requires formal dress or proximity to a table of
Guests of Honor.
On the listener's part:
Almost anything that requires finding a parking space in Philadelphia.
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 15:31:43 EDT
From: Nudeants@aol.com
Subject: Re: How Much Effort is Post-Modernism Worth?
In a message dated 9/22/00 3:28:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nudeants@aol.com
writes:
<< I just realized I'm taking something for granted here. * Both disks are
completely improvised, with one musician recording himself at home, sending
the tapes to the other musician, who then responds to and improvises along
with the tape. >>
Evidently here I was taking for granted that everyone would read my mind and
supply the missing clause, which would be:
*For those that don't already know....
- -matt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 16:24:45 -0400
From: "&c." <parksplace@hotmail.com>
Subject: Large Groups
I recently purchased the Chesterfeild Arrangements and I found it to have
less energy and charm as Scott's "Quintet." This led me on a train of
thought that made me consider the pros and cons of large groups in jazz as
well as other genres.
Large groups can be uncomfortable to listen to in some cases. When there is
no clear idea behind a piece, the music becomes convoluted. Coltrane's
Ascension comes to mind here. Though the improvisation is brilliant, the
fact that a big band is doing it with no over-arching reason to the
proceedings makes it unpleasant (for me) to listen to. Many times
arrangements aren't true to the original music, either it is too heavy
(light energetic music) or it's too minimalist (rich, layered music). I
heard this happen on the Chesterfield Arrangements, the arrangements (rich
as they were) conflicted with the original character of the music. Personal
ideas can be put into an arrangement if in some way it retains some of the
original character. The Big Gundown is one the best examples of where the
arranger took the music in a completely different direction while staying
true the composer.
Obviously large groups can play gorgeous pieces where everything fits and
everything works. A good symphony demonstrates this. Improvisation can fit
into large groups as well, if it fits into the idea of the music. A
dangerous line between composition and improvisation is walked by any
arranger. Where I find Ascension unbearable, I find Free Jazz to be a very
enjoyable listen. Coleman had a clear idea there was more of a solid rhythm
base than in Ascension. There are even slight glimpses of composition.
I would really like other's opinions on this matter.
Zach
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V3 #67
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