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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #974
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Thursday, June 22 2000 Volume 02 : Number 974
In this issue:
-
Re: books
Re: zorn in your face
Re: dolphymonk!!
Chicago question.
Re: books
Re: zorn in your face
Re: zorn in your face
Re: dolphymonk!!
Re: books
Re: zorn's humour
Re: books
upcoming releases on Unheard Music Series
Re: books
Re: zorn in your face
Re: books
Re[2]: zorn in your face
Re[2]: zorn in your face
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:29:44 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: books
>From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
> >
> > Actually, I think Octave Mirbeau's "Torture Garden" is a more
>appropriate
> > choice.
>
>From a spirit point of view (if such thing is possible between two
>different
>mediums), I would say that Torture Garden (the band) is closer to Celine
>since
>both attempt to stretch their own medium -- they both end up to punch the
>consummer in the face. Mirbeau does not do that but focuses on a dark
>corner
>of human mind (his delivery is in pure 19th century tradition).
>
> Patrice (indulging in the frivolous attempt at establishing
> connections beteween the uncommensurable).
You're right Patrice. Torture indeed has its "periodization." The question
we must ask Celine is what happens during the ellipses. Mirbeau belongs to
that 19th century form of tortuous aestheticism that would have to include
Leopold von Sacher-Masoch and his infamous love for the soles of women's
boots.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:32:00 EDT
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
In a message dated 6/22/00 11:04:35 AM, jtors@organic.com writes:
<< Ribot played great solos, some of his written parts he was having a
hard time with, but he made up for it in pure playing. >>
for me, Ribot's playing during the chamber sextet was easily my favorite part
of the evening. I was sitting pretty far back, but it seemed that after the
first tune or two, when Ribot was having some trouble with the sheet music,
Zorn decided to change his plan of attack, loosen up the reins, and
essentially let Ribot be the star soloist. it sounded much closer to
Filmworks 9 then it did to The Circle Maker or Bar Kokhba.
I also thought it was kind of funny that when Zorn announced "Bar Kokhba will
be next" after the String Trio, he pronounced it "Bar Kakhba" as if the o in
Kokhba rhymed with the Ra in Sun Ra. now, my Hebrew School days are long
behind me, but I'm fairly sure that it's pronounced as an O, like in rotund.
if I'm wrong, I'm sure you guys will tell me, but I don't think I am.
I was pretty impressed that the place was sold out (six or seven hundred
people, I'd guess) at $31/ticket. I couldn't figure out whether the audience
was predominantly downtown Zorn fans or JVC tourists, but whichever, they
loved what they were seeing, clapping long and loud after each piece of the
three sets. some people started trickling out during the Masada set, but that
might have been because it was starting to get a bit later, rather than a
dislike for the band.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:35:46 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: dolphymonk!!
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:08:32 +0100 "Peter Marsh" wrote:
>
> >
> >ok, i gotta say it, peter, even if your larger point is a good one. monk not an
> >instrumentalist?!? listen to his left hand plop as his right hand sprinkles.
> >listen to his solo stuff. listen with your eyes closed. i dunno, dude, listen!
>
> not guilty...that was andreas's point. i'm with you on that one. i think the
> whole distinction of bad instrumentalist/good musician or vice versa is sort
> of interesting because it raises questions of the relevancy of instrumental
> technique as opposed to 'musicality', but of course it's all based on value
> judgements. john mclaughlin is likely to score a 9 in most people's books in
> technical terms alone. he can move his fingers very fast. but is he a good
> musician ? (my answer would be sometimes, 30 years ago). you won't get a
> concensus on that one. at the other end of the scale you might have anyone
> from brian eno to steve jones to sun ra, where technique is less than
> relevant. somebody on another list i'm on once defined soul as 'to play
> with more expression than normal using as little technique as possible'...
I have been thinking about a related question, but with litterature:
Why some writers have succeeded so well in writing in a language
that was not theirs? [besides, of course, their talent]
I am thinking about Nabokov, Conrad, Genet (I know, he is not a foreigner, but
his limited education made him almost in the same position as a foreigner
writing in another language). Why have these artists reached such phenomenal
status? Could it be related to an slightly clumsy control of the language than
only a "foreigner" (or naive) could reach?
I sometimes think that Monk is a little bit in this situation, in the sense
that almost everybody thought that he did not know how to play (although
recognizing his incredible imagination and talent). Could his limited
control of the language of piano (in the traditional sense) be responsible
in part for what makes him so unique? The same way that a Genet with zero
education could end up writing one of the most impressive French prose?
Patrice (biting an old bone).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:46:37 EDT
From: ObviousEye@aol.com
Subject: Chicago question.
I am possibly moving to Chicago next year, and I would like to move to an
area with an interesting music scene. Does anyone have any comments or
advice on music in Chicago?
Thanks...
Ben.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:50:00 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: books
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 15:29:44 GMT "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
> You're right Patrice. Torture indeed has its "periodization." The question
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes, that is one of the elements that helps comparing both.
> we must ask Celine is what happens during the ellipses. Mirbeau belongs to
^^^^^^^^
I think that going so far, Celine reached the limits of the language and
that the ellipses represent the culmination of his frustration at not being
able to spit in the face of the world with words...
When you read Celine, you quickly realize how hyper-lucid he was (it is
almost scarry since he can see so much behind the smoke screens that
conventions and society put in everything we do). When you are so lucid, it
is hard to look at the world without such dose of irony and bitterness. He
did a fantastic job at conveying that with words. But words are just words,
and there is a limit to what they can do. I am happy that Celine never got
political control of any kind, and only used art to express his bitterness...
> that 19th century form of tortuous aestheticism that would have to include
> Leopold von Sacher-Masoch and his infamous love for the soles of women's
> boots.
And don't forget Sade!
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:52:24 -0500
From: fate@telepath.com (Your Imaginary Friend)
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
Jason wrote:
>Greg was cranked the whole night and laying it down in all three
>groups, his big red mit got bigger and bigger as the night wore on. I
>know we have talked about his hand, just wondering if there are any
>more insights into the cause. Some really amazing solos in the trio
>and quartet.
I've missed previous discussions on this bit of esoterica, but when Masada
played in Oklahoma five 'r six years ago, I asked Greg about his hand -
it's a birthmark...
Jon M.
_________________________
Radio Free Norman
96.7 FM
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:22:47 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:00:45AM -0400, Jason Tors wrote:
> At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
> coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
> downtown."
Premature end?
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:43:29 +0100
From: "Peter Marsh" <marshp@richmond.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: dolphymonk!!
Patrice wrote:
>I am thinking about Nabokov, Conrad, Genet (I know, he is not a foreigner, but
>his limited education made him almost in the same position as a foreigner
>writing in another language). Why have these artists reached such phenomenal
>status? Could it be related to an slightly clumsy control of the language than
>only a "foreigner" (or naive) could reach?
>I sometimes think that Monk is a little bit in this situation, in the sense
>that almost everybody thought that he did not know how to play (although
>recognizing his incredible imagination and talent). Could his limited
>control of the language of piano (in the traditional sense) be responsible
>in part for what makes him so unique? The same way that a Genet with zero
>education could end up writing one of the most impressive French prose?
That's an interesting idea...it sort of relates to the idea of limiting your
options, which is what artists have to spend a lot of time doing. Prodigious
technique or fluency kind of multiplies creative options in the same way
that new technology tends to, which usually has the result of
overcomplicating the issue and leads (in my experience anyway) to prolonged
head scratching, much timewasting and eventually, nothing much. Limited
technique or resources focusses creative activity for those of us who aren't
preternaturally gifted. Guitarists of the world, chuck away all your effects
pedals and tie one hand behind your back !
cheers
peter
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:25:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: books
Following past messages I pulled out my 1966 Signet edition of Death On
The Installement Plan and re-read the first 100 or so pages last night.
What struck me the most about read LFC at this late date is how much the
prose resembled that of Henry Miller circa the Tropics.
Miller was living in Paris at about that time and I wonder if one
influenced the other. Or was it like Sonny Stitt and Bird? Stitt insisted
that he developed his style before he heard Parker.
Ken Waxman
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:42:40 +0100
From: dan hill <dan@state51.co.uk>
Subject: Re: zorn's humour
>dan observed:
>"zorn's infectious good humour
>(which i guess has not always been the case?!?!) transferred to the
>whole audience, imbuing the gig with a remarkably intimate feel ... "
>
>i was surprisd the first time i saw jz play, about 9 yrs ago, how
>much he seemd
>to love what he was doing and how happy he was just to be there. i
>remember him
>grinning ear-to-ear, sitting on the drum riser, thurston moore on his left,
>haino keiji on his right, basking in it.
>
>and that's more or less the attitude he has whenever i've seen him.
>he might run
>to the edge of the stage to violently flip off a press photographer or
>something, but he's generally having a good time once that's taken care of.
hiya
thanks for that kurt ... i totally see what you're saying. the only
reason i threw that in was the comment someone made a few days ago
(which was actually on the jazz-l list come to think) about zorn's
performance as part of SLAN (with elliot sharp and ted epstein):
quote:
"Zorn either screamed into a mic or squeaked and squawked on his alto
saxophone. At one point, an audience member cynically shouted out
"Play something artsy!" Zorn just glared out at him and hissed
"Suffer!" It was a less than compelling set - and I'm a *fan* of
those guys."
just hearsay obviously. and the audience member sounds like they deserved it.
combined with the (righteous) anger that comes through in, say, the
jazz times article, i guess that he may project a certain image. note
i said righteous not self-righteous.
like i say, i was delighted to zorn so good-humoured, humble, and
clearly enjoying the whole experience. hey, now i sound star-struck
...
cheers,
dan.
- --
- ---+ dan hill [state51]
---+ new reviews on motion [22.6.2000]:
< indo | amon tobin | os mutantes | robert rich | hia/biosphere |
graham haynes | zed bias >
http://motion.state51.co.uk/ +---
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:05:55 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: books
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> Following past messages I pulled out my 1966 Signet edition of Death On
> The Installement Plan and re-read the first 100 or so pages last night.
> What struck me the most about read LFC at this late date is how much the
> prose resembled that of Henry Miller circa the Tropics.
First VOYAGE AU BOUT DE LA NUIT was written in 1932 and TROPIQUE DU CANCER in
1934, which puts Celine first (by a very small margin, at least from a
publishing date point of view).
Both books are more of less of biographical nature and exhibit similar
bitterness and highly-critical look at society. There are written by
adults who had quite a bit of experience (Celine with I WW and Miller
with the Depression).
Although less obvious in TROPIQUE DU CANCER, TROPIQUE DU CAPRICORNE has a
poetic (should I say exalted?) dimension that is totally missing in Celine
(I do not consider the style of GUIGNOL'S BAND as being of a poetic nature,
but again, I use criterias from the old time; I know that according to modern
standards, it is impossible these days to write any combination of words that
do no qualify as being poetic...). I am not familiar with Miller's trilogy
(NEXUS, SEXUS, etc), but I seem to remember that the poetic/exalted aspect
of his writing kept on growing.
Although VOYAGE AU BOUT DE LA NUIT and TROPIQUE DU CANCER are both phenomenal
first attempts of young writers (not based on age criteria, but fame), Celine
kept experimenting more and more, and, IMHO, Miller got more and more self-
centered and annoyingly self-indulgent. Needless to say, Celine never got,
IMHO again, self-indulgent (he has no pity for anybody, and he puts himself
in the front row). But Celine wrote those awful pamphlets... Which means that
as a human being, it is hard to defend Celine.
Miller's first books finish on an optimistic tone (with moral like: "Life
is crappy, but we are happy to be there anyway"). Also, with Miller sex is
what save the man from his desperate lot. This escape is absent in Celine:
the man is naked and there is no hope.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:16:20 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: upcoming releases on Unheard Music Series
I talked yesterday with John Corbett and he mentioned some interesting
upcoming releases on his label (Unheard Music Series):
*** - NERVE BEATS: Han Bennink (1973, unreleased)
*** - HEAVY DAYS ARE HERE AGAIN: Leo Cuypers (reissue, on Bvhaast initially)
*** - HUNTING THE SNAKE: Alex Schlippenbach 4tet (1976, unreleased)
4tet = A.S., Evan Parker, Peter Kowald, Paul Lovens
*** - WILLIE THE PIG: Irene Schweizer (reissue, I guess)
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:25:24 -0700
From: "s~Z" <keith@pfmentum.com>
Subject: Re: books
>>>the man is naked and there is no hope.<<<
I have no mouth and I must scream.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:36:12 -0400
From: Jason Tors <jtors@organic.com>
Subject: Re: zorn in your face
off on the side there was a manager guy making time out signs, john
didnt look too happy about it esp since they were just getting warmed
up on the fourth or fifth tune.
>On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:00:45AM -0400, Jason Tors wrote:
> > At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
> > coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
> > downtown."
>
>Premature end?
>
>--
>|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
>| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>
>
>-
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:40:42 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: books
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:25:24 -0700 "s~Z" wrote:
>
> >>>the man is naked and there is no hope.<<<
>
> I have no mouth and I must scream.
Hoops! I meant:
"Man [in general] is naked and there is no hope."
as a way of ultra-simplifying Celine's philosophy. I did not mean
"the man" as Celine.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 13:54:21 -0400
From: Peter Gannushkin <shkin@shkin.com>
Subject: Re[2]: zorn in your face
Hello Jason,
I wonder how many people from this list were there? :-)
What was the tune Masada String Trio played picking strings only? I
think it was not recorded for Circle Maker. Does anybody know if they
are going to make another recording?
Thursday, June 22, 2000, you wrote to me:
JT> off on the side there was a manager guy making time out signs, john
JT> didnt look too happy about it esp since they were just getting warmed
JT> up on the fourth or fifth tune.
>>On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:00:45AM -0400, Jason Tors wrote:
>> > At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
>> > coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
>> > downtown."
>>
>>Premature end?
>>
>>--
>>|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
>>| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
>>| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
>>| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
>>
>>
>>-
JT> -
- --
Best regards,
Peter Gannushkin
e-mail: shkin@shkin.com
URL: http://www.shkin.com/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 14:32:04 -0400
From: Jason Tors <jtors@organic.com>
Subject: Re[2]: zorn in your face
I definitely recognized a lot of folks that I see out at tonic and
the KF. Namely an older bearded gentleman with his wife.
There was this kid named Lauren [I Think] he is an alto player, I saw
him play with a buddy of mine anders griffen about 4 years ago in
white plains, he was hot then, I wonder where he is at now. Does
anyone know who I am talking about.
Of course bruce lee galager was front row dead center sporting is
tzadik tshirt.
I was really surprised at the variety of folks that were out at this gig.
Has there ever been a list get together, sounds kind of lame but it
might be interesting to put faces to names when out at shows.
>Hello Jason,
>
>I wonder how many people from this list were there? :-)
>
>What was the tune Masada String Trio played picking strings only? I
>think it was not recorded for Circle Maker. Does anybody know if they
>are going to make another recording?
>
>Thursday, June 22, 2000, you wrote to me:
>
>JT> off on the side there was a manager guy making time out signs, john
>JT> didnt look too happy about it esp since they were just getting warmed
>JT> up on the fourth or fifth tune.
>
> >>On Thu, Jun 22, 2000 at 11:00:45AM -0400, Jason Tors wrote:
> >> > At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
> >> > coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
> >> > downtown."
> >>
> >>Premature end?
> >>
> >>--
> >>|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
> >>| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
> >>| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
> >>| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
> >>
> >>
> >>-
>
>
>JT> -
>
>
>--
>Best regards,
>Peter Gannushkin
>e-mail: shkin@shkin.com
>URL: http://www.shkin.com/
>
>
>
>-
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #974
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