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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #973
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Thursday, June 22 2000 Volume 02 : Number 973
In this issue:
-
Names...I've changed my mind
Re: Kobo Abe's Cinema
Re: Thoughts on Mahfouz
Re: books
RE: thurston@tonic and zornchambermusic@angelorensanz
Re: dolphymonk!!
Celine translation (was RE: books)
Re: Celine translation (was RE: books)
Names...I've changed my mind
Zorn Top Ten
zorn in your face
Re: books
Re: Kobo Abe's Cinema
zorn's humour
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:03:11 -0400
From: "&c." <parksplace@hotmail.com>
Subject: Names...I've changed my mind
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="Windows-1252"
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", I saw this list was just what I expected it to be."
You must be looking for a different list than most people. Most were =
probably looking for dedicated list. Unfortunately for them =
(fortunately for many, my self included) it's not. I don't think any =
one wants the list to be "zorn-centric." They just don't want the Zorn =
List to sound like it is. =20
I agree that it is probably a good thing that the people live because =
they are disappointed by the lack of "zorn-centric" material. The =
problem with the name is that the Zorn element attracts people, but it's =
misleading. I'm beginning to think that a name change is not a good =
thing. Bringing people in is better than risking people getting upset =
over the content. I think Zorn is a popular introduction to =
avant-garde/NYC Downtown music. People learn of others through Zorn and =
maybe find that they don't like Zorn as much as they thought. =
Regardless of people's opinions of the man, he has as big a name as any =
in the scene. Isn't it a good thing to have it attached to this lowly =
internet mailing list?
Zach
- ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BFDBC4.1BA47960
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charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4030.2400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>", I saw this list was just what I expected it to be."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You must be looking for a different list than most people. =
Most were=20
probably looking for dedicated list. Unfortunately for them =
(fortunately=20
for many, my self included) it's not. I don't think any one wants =
the list=20
to be "zorn-centric." They just don't want the Zorn List to sound =
like it=20
is. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree that it is probably a good thing that the people live =
because they=20
are disappointed by the lack of "zorn-centric" material. The =
problem with=20
the name is that the Zorn element attracts people, but it's =
misleading. =20
I'm beginning to think that a name change is not a good thing. =
Bringing=20
people in is better than risking people getting upset over the =
content. I=20
think Zorn is a popular introduction to avant-garde/NYC Downtown =
music. =20
People learn of others through Zorn and maybe find that they don't like =
Zorn as=20
much as they thought. Regardless of people's opinions of the man, =
he has=20
as big a name as any in the scene. Isn't it a good thing to have =
it=20
attached to this lowly internet mailing list?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>Zach</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BFDBC4.1BA47960--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 21:20:07 -0400
From: Maurice Rickard <maurice@mac.com>
Subject: Re: Kobo Abe's Cinema
At 8:08 AM +0900 6/22/00, Akira SAITO wrote:
>You know there is the movie _Woman in the Dunes_,
>directed by Hiroshi Teshigahara, written be Kobo Abe,
>music by Toru Takemitsu?
Oh, yeah! I've seen it. As Brian said, great film. I recall the
soundtrack as very electronic. Was it ever released separately?
- --
Maurice Rickard
http://mauricerickard.com/
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 19:33:31 -0500
From: howcome@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Mahfouz
Thanks for the info, Jamie. That's interesting because now that you mention
it, Sanctuary kind of reminds me of Mahfouz the writer.
Naguib Mahfouz is a Nobel Prize winning author from Egypt who is probably
most famous in these parts (US) for his Cairo Trilogy (Palace Walk, Palace
of Desire,
and Sugar Street). At least those are the books that you usually find at your
local bookstore. The last thing I read by him was Arabian Nights and Days
which is a more fleshed out retelling of the famous Thousand and One Nights.
I've always been somewhat disappointed in the original but Mahfouz' version is
utterly magical. He is an excellent, sometimes mesmerizing writer although
I really
need to read more of his books. I believe he is still alive somewhere
close to 90
although given the amount of time it takes for his books to be translated
from the
Arabic to English we could still be waiting for that news to hit here. James
At 01:22 PM 06/21/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>to the person who asked about Mahfouz:
>
>I saw Dave and Mahfouz at the KF Old Office a year (or two?) ago. The band
>is Jamie Saft on organ, Ikue Mori doing her drum electronics, Kenny
>Wolleson and Dave playing trumpet and some electronic setup with CD and
>tape players, samplers and lots of pedals. It sounded like a small group
>"Sanctuary" with very loose, free compositions. Great group, but I don't
>think they plan to release any albums, at least according to Bruce at
>Downtown Music Gallery. The name comes from a writer from the middle east
>(Egpyt I think...), but I don't know anything about him. Anyone else know
>who Mahfouz is/was?
>
>Jamie
>
>
>-
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:44:40 EDT
From: "Mathieu Belanger" <belanmat@MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Re: books
Hello,
>Nothing compared, for exemple, with GUIGNOL'S BAND, which is almost
>impossible to read in French (I gave up after 50 pages -- a
frustrating
>experience since it was the first time I was giving up on a novel that
>I thought was fantastic but could not read).
I experienced the same frustration. I had start reading _Guignol's
Band_ in February. Just like Patrice, I stopped after 100 pages. Celine
really put his style to the limit with this book. The first chapter
gives the impression you are actually reading an endless enumeration
except he is telling a story... Very hard to read... especially in the
metro!
>I am wondering how the translation could be.
Is it possible to translate this book? Of course, the words and the
sentences can be and probably have been, but I think it would be very
hard to capture the essence of the text. Also, Celine uses a particular
tone that would very difficult to express without the very specific
vocabulary used...
Bye,
Mathieu
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 22:45:29 -0400
From: Jeni Dahmus <jdahmus@juilliard.edu>
Subject: RE: thurston@tonic and zornchambermusic@angelorensanz
I meant to post a message about Zorn's chamber works concert earlier but was
too swamped to write anything articulate. Dan, thanks for the lovely
review. The concert was a spectacular, possibly historic, marathon of
Zorn's old and new chamber music. Several of my favorite pieces were
performed. I remember the sets as:
8:00 - Music for Children, Untitled cello solo, The Dead Man, Amour Fou, Kol
Nidre
10:30 - Cat O'Nine Tails, Shibboleth (premiere), Le Momo, Dead Ringer,
Memento Mori
The opportunity to hear all the works live, in the same evening (!), was
extraordinary. In my opinion, Zorn has produced / is producing a body of
classical compositions that will remain significant in the repertoire. I
left the concert completely inspired to study this music further.
Just a few notes on individual pieces that Dan did not mention: Shibboleth's
quiet orchestration--string trio with practice mutes, percussion, and
clavichord--was refreshing. What a delight to hear clavichord in a modern
work! I enjoyed Dead Ringer, a finale-esque piano solo from 1982. Stephen
Drury rocked the Orensanz with his virtuosic display. Regarding the other
pieces on the program, I've gained a better appreciation through multiple
listenings, especially with the most recent series (Le Momo, Amour Fou,
Untitled). It's impossible to catch the fine details and layers the first
time. I've heard Le Momo live more often than the other compositions; each
time I'm blown away to a greater degree. Also, the subtleties of
performance simply cannot be duplicated on a sound recording.
Zorn's chamber works, Secret Chiefs 3, and Dying Ground (go Kang!) were
concert highlights for me these past few months.
By the way, Zorn is Merkin Concert Hall's featured composer of the 2000-2002
season. According to the season brochure, Kol Nidre, the untitled cello
solo, and music from Masada will be performed. Zorn will also participate
in the "A Great Day in New York" series.
Jeni
p.s. Someone else reviewed the concert on the Caca Volante list. I can
forward the message to anyone interested.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:08:32 +0100
From: "Peter Marsh" <marshp@richmond.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: dolphymonk!!
kurt wrote:
>
>ok, i gotta say it, peter, even if your larger point is a good one. monk not an
>instrumentalist?!? listen to his left hand plop as his right hand sprinkles.
>listen to his solo stuff. listen with your eyes closed. i dunno, dude, listen!
not guilty...that was andreas's point. i'm with you on that one. i think the
whole distinction of bad instrumentalist/good musician or vice versa is sort
of interesting because it raises questions of the relevancy of instrumental
technique as opposed to 'musicality', but of course it's all based on value
judgements. john mclaughlin is likely to score a 9 in most people's books in
technical terms alone. he can move his fingers very fast. but is he a good
musician ? (my answer would be sometimes, 30 years ago). you won't get a
concensus on that one. at the other end of the scale you might have anyone
from brian eno to steve jones to sun ra, where technique is less than
relevant. somebody on another list i'm on once defined soul as 'to play
with more expression than normal using as little technique as possible'...
>
>and while the head is still swimming: dolphy has a lack of conception!?! good
>god, man. 'out to lunch' is one of the single best jazz recordings ever. easily.
i'm with you on that too.
cheers
peter
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:25:50 +0200
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
Subject: Celine translation (was RE: books)
Mathieu Belanger <belanmat@MAGELLAN.UMontreal.CA> wrote (quoting Patrice
L.Roussel about Gugnol's Band):
> >I am wondering how the translation could be.
>
> Is it possible to translate this book? Of course, the words and the
> sentences can be and probably have been, but I think it would be very
> hard to capture the essence of the text. Also, Celine uses a particular
> tone that would very difficult to express without the very specific
> vocabulary used...
Translating any of Celine's books is IMHO nearly impossible because of the
specific tone & vocabulary used... There is an excellent polish translation
of 'mort a credit' ,one that cathes much mof the tone, but it's seriously
cenosred - the book becomes mucgh less vulgar and violent.
'D'un chateau l'autre' was translated more preecsiely, but a way less fun -
but that one is more difficult...
What are english translation like?
Marcin Gokieli
marcingokieli@go2.pl
<<Thanks to this excellent device
man shall reenter paradise.>>
Auden & Kallman, Stravinsky's "The Rake's Progress"
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 12:24:29 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Celine translation (was RE: books)
>From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl>
>
>Translating any of Celine's books is IMHO nearly impossible because of the
>specific tone & vocabulary used...
>
>What are english translation like?
>
Most of the translations were very ably rendered by Ralph Manheim, whom I
believe has also done translations of German writers. The exception was
Guignol, which was translated by Bernard Frechtman and Jack Nile.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 09:45:30 -0400
From: "&c." <parksplace@hotmail.com>
Subject: Names...I've changed my mind
", I saw this list was just what I expected it to be."
You must be looking for a different list than most people. Most were
probably looking for dedicated list. Unfortunately for them (fortunately
for many, my self included) it's not. I don't think any one wants the list
to be "zorn-centric." They just don't want the Zorn List to sound like it
is.
I agree that it is probably a good thing that the people live because they
are disappointed by the lack of "zorn-centric" material. The problem with
the name is that the Zorn element attracts people, but it's misleading. I'm
beginning to think that a name change is not a good thing. Bringing people
in is better than risking people getting upset over the content. I think
Zorn is a popular introduction to avant-garde/NYC Downtown music. People
learn of others through Zorn and maybe find that they don't like Zorn as
much as they thought. Regardless of people's opinions of the man, he has as
big a name as any in the scene. Isn't it a good thing to have it attached
to this lowly internet mailing list?
Zach
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 10:11:02 EDT
From: "Jeremy McClain" <jemcclain@hotmail.com>
Subject: Zorn Top Ten
A couple days ago someone mentioned the Zorn top ten list that he used to
post on the Tzadik site. I've been on a quest for some time now to track
them down. It seems there is no archive to retrieve them. Would anyone
have or know where to find these lists? I've always loved the fact that
Zorn uses his liner notes to recommend other artists. His Top Ten lists
were great because they were up-to-date nods to his current influences. I'm
kicking myself for not saving them. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jeremy
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:00:45 -0400
From: Jason Tors <jtors@organic.com>
Subject: zorn in your face
At the premature end of the masada cubed gig, zorn said " thanks for
coming uptown to see us, if you want to see more get the fuck
downtown."
Briefly tho, zorn sounded in great shape, he must be playing his ass off.
Dave was just as unbelievable as you could imagine, does that guy
ever take the horn off his face? He went up on stage and didnt have
any charts or written music.
Joey laid back during bar kokhba but kicked it into high gear for the
quartet. His solos are starting to change a lot, not just fast
powerhouse activity, but really musical.
Greg was cranked the whole night and laying it down in all three
groups, his big red mit got bigger and bigger as the night wore on. I
know we have talked about his hand, just wondering if there are any
more insights into the cause. Some really amazing solos in the trio
and quartet.
Mark played better than I have ever seen him, really pushing himself
and the songs. There were a few new arrangements for the trio and the
sextet. I can never remember the names of the tunes, but I believe
they were off some of the newer masada releases.
Erik was totally on top of his game, his solos in the sextet and trio
were beautiful.
Cyro was inventive and used a lot of the same sounds as on the circle
maker, he just makes me laugh with his expressions. I love the two
black metal pots he hits, it has a hole in the top and makes this
great bassy sound. Zorn was telling him that he was overplaying a few
times, dont know if that is typical. Zorn was doing a great job
conducting, really subtle, I was sitting on the side so I could see
him giving out his sigals, he really shaped the way a lot of those
tunes played out.
Ribot played great solos, some of his written parts he was having a
hard time with, but he made up for it in pure playing.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 08:10:03 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: books
On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 00:14:50 GMT "Bill Ashline" wrote:
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Marcin Gokieli" <marcingokieli@go2.pl
> >Celine should be
> >THE writer for hardcore 'torture garden' fans (although not for the Masada
> >addicts...;-).
>
> Actually, I think Octave Mirbeau's "Torture Garden" is a more appropriate
> choice.
From a spirit point of view (if such thing is possible between two different
mediums), I would say that Torture Garden (the band) is closer to Celine since
both attempt to stretch their own medium -- they both end up to punch the
consummer in the face. Mirbeau does not do that but focuses on a dark corner
of human mind (his delivery is in pure 19th century tradition).
Patrice (indulging in the frivolous attempt at establishing
connections beteween the uncommensurable).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 00:15:53 +0900
From: "Akira SAITO" <akirasaito@nyc.odn.ne.jp>
Subject: Re: Kobo Abe's Cinema
>Oh, yeah! I've seen it. As Brian said, great film. I recall the
>soundtrack as very electronic. Was it ever released separately?
I have not seen the soundtrack of the film only. But, there have been
several soundtracks of Takemitsu's music for some films directed
by Teshigahara, Ohshima, Imamura, etc.
Now you can buy CD titled "The Film Music of Toru Takemitsu".
It includes Kobo Abe's movie, "Woman in the Dunes" and "The Face
of Another". The front photo of the CD is from the latter, the face with
whole bandage! (He is Nakadai, regular actor for Kurosawa's film.)
Akira Saito
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 11:18:26 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: zorn's humour
dan observed:
"zorn's infectious good humour
(which i guess has not always been the case?!?!) transferred to the
whole audience, imbuing the gig with a remarkably intimate feel ... "
i was surprisd the first time i saw jz play, about 9 yrs ago, how much he seemd
to love what he was doing and how happy he was just to be there. i remember him
grinning ear-to-ear, sitting on the drum riser, thurston moore on his left,
haino keiji on his right, basking in it.
and that's more or less the attitude he has whenever i've seen him. he might run
to the edge of the stage to violently flip off a press photographer or
something, but he's generally having a good time once that's taken care of.
reason i say it is i think the image he's projectd (moreso in the past) makes
him seem like an angrier, more volatile person than he is. he's also generally
friendly and approachable.
i don't mean to come off all starry-eyed. there's certainly things he does that
i find uninteresting (like any artist, at least any artist who tries so many
different things). but i do think it's, well hasty anyway, for someone who (i'm
guessing) doesn't know the man to talk trash about him. someone else said here
they didn't want to contribute to zorn's huge ego by calling this list after
him. i wonder where he got that impression. because jz recognizes his place in
the market and puts a lot of work into attaching his name to a nonprofit label
that calls a fair bit of attention to a lot of musicians who otherwise wouldn't
get it? i guarantee there's nobody on this list who knew all the acts tzadik has
releasd before they came out. and from my few contacts with the man, he's never
struck me as egotistical. there's been unkind personal assumptions made about
other people, loren mazzacane connors for one, here. let's keep the conversation
to music (and books and film and electronics and travel spots and...) and leave
out the name-calling, of each other or the folks we write about.
whew! i didn't really even know i was going there.
ah well,
kg
np: john fahey - the transfiguration of blind joe death
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #973
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