ftp.xmission.com/2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar/ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/zorn-list/archive/v02.n933

Internet Message Format | 2000-05-10 | 22KB

From: [e-mail] (Zorn List Digest)
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #933
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: [e-mail]
Errors-To: [e-mail]
Precedence: bulk


Zorn List Digest        Thursday, May 11 2000        Volume 02 : Number 933



In this issue:
-
       Re: Metallica are fucking morons
       mazzacane
       cd prices
       Re:  cd prices
       CD Prices (NY TIMES)
       oysterhead
       RE: ribot y los cubanos
       vision fest question
       Re: Zorns NO to MP3
       metallica story
       reasons to live all music writers no. 3,298
       Re:  metallica story
       Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #932

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:22:46 +1000
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Metallica are fucking morons

> They'll always have the boys with their guitars.  That's who goes to the
> shows.  That is if their parents let them.  Mp3 won't hurt, it will only
> make them stronger if they don't fight it.

How exactly can 300,000 people getting your music for free rather than
buying it make you stronger?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:43:22 PDT
From: "Matt Krefting" <[e-mail]>
Subject: mazzacane

hi all
i read the lmc interview and didn't find anything by which to be sickened.
i'm w/ christina (i'd like to hear what makes one of our most brilliant
musicians a fucking crybaby) and i already read the thing. is it the fact
that he wishes more people could hear his music? i'm not trying to start an
argument, just wondering.

on the topic of loren wanking off, i completely disagree. i've seen loren a
few times (once w/ the charalambides, a night which still lives in my memory
as one of magic and mystery and light-thanks christina), and have been
completely awestruck. personal preferences aside, it's fairly obvious that
loren is far less of a wank off than certain folks discussed on this list...
matt
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:47:20 -0400
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: cd prices

>merchants who advertise discounts. Retailers can rake in tens of thousands
>of dollars in "cooperative advertising" from record labels -- but if they
>dare advertise store sales that undercut the minimum prices set by the
>record label, the labels deny the outlets that money. Surprise! No one drops


This isn't completely done for the label's benefit.  If there was no MAP
(minimum advertised price policy) then the large chains could sell CDs
under cost as loss leaders while making their money on electronics/consumer
goods.  The result would be that independent stores can't compete on price
(though they can in other ways) and many would go out of business.  This
happened in my city before MAPs were more strongly enforced.  Plus in this
situation the labels aren't entirely concerned with the price for the
consumer since they're getting the same amount of money from the store (or
distributor/one-stop more likely) regardless of whether the store sells it
for $8 or $18.


>The FTC suit could potentially lower CD prices for all consumers.

Which might not necessarily be a good thing since major labels probably
would be even more reluctant than now to invest in artists with marginal
appeal.  Perhaps these are the musicians better served at indies in most
respects but just think of how many mall stores you can find Zorn's
Nonesuch albums (and recently David Ware!) that will never carry a Tzadik
title.

I'm not trying to defend major labels completely since anybody with any
connection to the business knows that they have quite a few shady and
downright bullying practices but the pricing situation is more complex than
is sometimes presented.

LT

- -------------------------------------------
Full Alert Film Review
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/fafr.htm

Funhouse
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/funhouse.htm

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:07:03 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  cd prices

In a message dated 5/10/00 9:50:38 PM, you wrote:

<<Which might not necessarily be a good thing since major labels probably
would be even more reluctant than now to invest in artists with marginal
appeal.

=>They drop em after they learn they don't sell, anyway.

 Perhaps these are the musicians better served at indies in most
respects

=>They wind up on indies after Sony drops em

 but just think of how many mall stores you can find Zorn's
Nonesuch albums (and recently David Ware!) that will never carry a Tzadik
title.

=>And how many returns count against John's or David's royalty statements
when those discs are returned after sitting in a Sam Goddy's bin for more
than months

I'm not trying to defend major labels completely since anybody with any
connection to the business knows that they have quite a few shady and
downright bullying practices but the pricing situation is more complex than
is sometimes presented.

=>I could tell you horror stories

best--
skip h


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:24:32 -0400
From: "Ljova" <[e-mail]>
Subject: CD Prices (NY TIMES)

from today's NYTIMES:
"Biggest Music Companies Settle Antitrust Case on CD Price-Fixing"
by By STEPHEN LABATON

WASHINGTON, May 10 -- The Federal Trade Commission announced a settlement of
an antitrust case against the nation's five largest music companies today
that the commission said should result in significant price cuts for compact
discs.

Officials said the settlement completed a two-year investigation that found
the companies used illegal marketing agreements to end a price war, inflate
the prices of compact discs and sharply restrict the ability of retailers to
offer discounts. The officials estimated that consumers were overcharged by
$500 million over the last four years.

In the settlement, which levied no fines, the companies agreed not to make
any such marketing agreements.

Robert Pitofsky, the chairman of the F.T.C., said the settlement would
enable retailers to advertise deep discounts once again. He estimated that
the savings to consumers could be as high as $17 million a month, or roughly
$2 to $5 on many popular discs.

Mr. Pitofsky said he had based the estimates on the heavy discounting and
price wars that took place before the music producers wrote the marketing
agreements in the mid-1990's.

The marketing agreements, which the F.T.C. said violated federal antitrust
law, were between many large and small retailers and the five music
companies, which control 85 percent of the $15 billion CD market.

The companies that settled the case were Time Warner, which announced
earlier this year that it had reached an agreement with the F.T.C.; the Sony
Corporation of America; the Bertelsmann Music Group; EMI Music Distribution,
and Universal Music and Video Distribution. All the companies have denied
that the marketing agreements violated the law, and many of them declined
today to discuss the settlement.

Mr. Pitofsky said the agreements, known as "minimum advertised price"
programs, or MAP, were carried out in an effort by the manufacturers to end
a price war earlier in the 1990's by such discounters as Circuit City,
Wal-Mart, Best Buy and Target.

The agreements between the music companies and the retailers forbade the
retailers to advertise discounts on CD's in newspapers, on television or
even on posters in the stores themselves. In exchange for those commitments,
the music companies agreed to pay some or all of the advertising costs for
the CD's.

After initial agreements failed to curtail the price war, Mr. Pitofsky said,
the music companies toughened the agreements. The new deals prohibited
retailers from advertising discount prices even in ads that the retailers
paid for. Mr. Pitofsky said the agency had discovered a memorandum sent by
one industry executive describing the more restrictive program as "MAP with
teeth."

Commission officials said that in the few instances in which the retailers
violated the agreements and advertised discounts, the manufacturers
temporarily stopped making promotional payments, costing the retailers
hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.

"This was industry-wide vertical price-fixing," Mr. Pitofsky said at a news
conference, adding that the case was a classic illustration of the
differences in antitrust enforcement between the Clinton administration and
the Reagan administration in the 1980's, when officials had a different view
of antitrust law. "During the 1980's, retail price maintenance agreements
were not challenged once," Mr. Pitofsky said.

A lawyer representing one of the companies said that the government had not
presented a fair or complete picture of the marketing agreements.

The lawyer, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that many music stores
had wanted the marketing agreements because the pacts stopped the discount
stores from undercutting the music stores by using CD's as a loss leader to
attract customers. According to industry analysts, many music stores were
driven into bankruptcy because of the earlier intense competition on CD
prices.

"The specialty stores were being very badly hurt," the lawyer said. "These
agreements were intended to assist those specialty stores maintain a wide
selection of offerings, and as such, they were actually very pro-consumer."

The lawyer said the companies had decided to settle the case because the
marketing agreements were becoming outdated since they were not applicable
to sales of CD's on the Internet, where CD sales have been growing steadily.

Other executives from the music companies said their profit margins were the
same regardless of the wholesale prices charged by the retailers and
therefore they would not have gained any money by curtailing discounting.
But government officials disputed that contention, saying that the
manufacturers stood to gain substantially from helping the specialty stores.

The consent order settling the investigation was approved today by a 5-to-0
vote of the F.T.C. The order prohibits the five companies from linking any
future financing of advertising with pricing of CD's for seven years. For 13
years after that, the companies are prohibited from imposing pricing
conditions in advertisements that are paid for by the retailers.

Government officials said that although they had concluded that the
agreements were unreasonable restraints of trade in violation of Section 5
of the Federal Trade Commission Act, they had decided not to seek fines. A
variety of private lawsuits have been filed seeking financial penalties
against the five music companies.

The officials said the investigation into the marketing agreements had had
no bearing on the agency's review of a variety of industry-related mergers.

But some analysts said that Time Warner and EMI nonetheless felt compelled
to settle the case because of two deals involving them that are before the
F.T.C. The agency is considering whether to approve Time Warner's merger
with America Online. And Warner has announced its intention to merge its
music division with that of its rival EMI.




- --------
Lev "Ljova" Zhurbin
[e-mail]
http://Ljova.com/
Listen to my music:
http://mp3.com/LevZhurbin/ (compositions)
http://mp3.com/Ljova/ (improvisations)
http://mp3.com/FreeBach/ (Free Bach Project)

"Do not fear mistakes - there are none."
        -Miles Davis


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:36:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Gatzen <[e-mail]>
Subject: oysterhead

I just got the Oysterhead show on MP3..it's pretty
cool, they do a mean version of Immigrant song

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:23:13 PDT
From: "M. pathos" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: ribot y los cubanos

I'd go even farther and say that no matter how benignly postmodern the
project's supposed to be, American cultural imperialism (that's what this
limp prosthesis is, folks) is evil - and not at all funny.

- -Speedy Gonzales

>
>
>
    Well, I don't find joking "his American accent when he sings
Spanish" so far, as Americans wouldn't find joking if I sing in English; or
would they?

    Joking,

    Hugo Linares (The Joker...)

- -


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:42:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan <[e-mail]>
Subject: vision fest question

I'm headed up to NYC for the opening night of vision fest & I recall
reading somewhere (here?) about a parade to the venue led by the little
huey creative music orchestra - does anyone have the details on this?  ie
start time, location, route, etc.

thanks

ethan



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:17:37 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3

At the risk of opening a can of worms:

First of all, I apologize for being really extreme yesterday, for some reason
it made me react that way.  YET,

I think you'll find that most musicians are just worried about getting the
chance to make music to the best of their ability, as opposed to 'simply
making money.'  We live in an environment the simply does NOT support
anything ultimately far-reaching.  I can't see how most musicians can spend
75% of their lives doing something that is not exactly what they need to
create and still manage to succeed in doing it to their satisfaction.

What's more, to call them sad is just insulting (not that I wasn't insulting
yesterday), since we don't really know their motives for doing what they do
and ultimately are not qualified to comment as such upon it.

matt mitchell


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:32:06 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: metallica story

given recent talk...

Napster kicks off Metallica fans
AP Photo NY119
By RON HARRIS
Associated Press Writer
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Napster Inc. closed down more than 300,000 of its online
music sharing accounts to appease heavy-metal band Metallica after the rockers
sued to halt the trading of their songs over the Internet.
Metallica recently hired a consulting firm to weed out users of Napster's
software who freely trade digital copies of the band's music online. Drummer
Lars Ulrich hand-delivered a list of 317,377 people identified by screen name to
Napster's San Mateo headquarters last week.
Napster officials, under the pressure of a copyright infringement lawsuit the
band filed against them April 13, announced Wednesday that they had blocked
access for those users.
"Napster has taken extraordinary steps to comply with Metallica's demands to
block hundreds of thousands of its fans from using the Napster system," said
Napster attorney Laurence Pulgram.
A Metallica spokeswoman said the band would continue monitoring the trading of
its music by Napster users.
Dejected fans continued to berate the band's actions on Internet message boards
and Napster chat rooms.
"This is not about Metallica versus the Internet," Ulrich said in a statement on
the band's Web site. "We know that the Internet is the future in terms of
spreading your music to your fans, and we're excited about that. But we want to
control how that's done, just like we've always controlled what we make."
Napster had maintained that its service should be protected by a provision in
federal law that limits the liability of Internet service providers who are sued
for the actions of their users. Napster argued that is was merely a "conduit"
for the trading of songs.
U.S. District Judge Marilyn Hall Patel rejected that defense Friday, ruling that
Napster doesn't qualify as an Internet service provider.
Napster also is being sued by the Recording Industry Association of America.
- ---
On the Net:
Recording Industry Association of America: http://www.riaa.org
Napster: http://www.napster.com
Metallica: http://www.metallica.com



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:41:59 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: reasons to live all music writers no. 3,298

or, what is it, joe walsh under that chicken tub?

By David Segal
(c) 2000, The Washington Post

There's a guitarist in Los Angeles who performs with a "Friday the 13th" hockey
mask strapped to his face and a KFC chicken bucket on his noggin. Not to knock
the guy's chops - hey, he's toured with Ozzfest, after all - but Buckethead's
shtick highlights the hurdles facing long-term musicians in an industry that
thrives on short-term novelty. How do you sustain an audience without resorting,
metaphorically speaking, to a cardboard takeout pail?
XTC has been staring at this problem for a long time...





- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:41:30 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  metallica story

I think if artists actually made it a point of getting in touch with traders,
you'd see a better class of tapes out there.

Taping and MP3 trading aren't going away.  They just plain aren't.  So, if an
artist wants to control what goes out there, they'd better embrace the
reality.

If there are any NRBQ fans on the list, you know how heavily bootlegged that
band is.  I've never seen one of those boots for sale, but I have a handul,
all of which I've traded for.  In a few cases, there's been more than one
version of a show, and I've "upgraded".  No $ ever changed hands.

If NRBQ were to get involved, the qulaity of what is let out would go up.
They'd have the right of editorship.

Artists should be paid.  period.  But it's reality that certain stuff occurs
away from the sanctioned marketplace.  So, at least, they should take the
bull by the horns about quality control -- which might actually become a
great tool for finding out about their audience in a closer, more direct way,
as well as giving them a way to at least control the presentation of these
recordings, and to keep stuff they really hate out of the public ear.

skip h

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:01:32 PDT
From: "Schei▀e Junge" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #932

Christina, Zornlisters,

First of all, I have to agree the Lorren Mazzacane Conners is one of
America's greatest living artists. I am in love with his album "airs". I
bought it on a whim about two months ago (having never heard his stuff)and
have completely fallen in love with his guitar playing.

I did however, read the interview with him in the last issue of Signal to
Noise. I found him to be way too bitter about music and how it has affected
his life.

He made mention to things to the extent of---"I have no records out. Lots of
people have put out records for me but it doesn't mean shit. They don't sell
shit, so it is like I have no records out. I have $40 in my pocket and no
job or car or anything and it's all because of music. I am 50 (something)
years old, been doing music for thirty years and it's bullshit that I
haven't made it."

I just found his attitude about everything to be very SAD. Therefore I call
him a Crybaby. Although I love his music, he is still a crybaby.

For him to just talk shit about people who have spent their money, time and
energy to put albums out for him like that sucks.

That's my take,
John Schuller



Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:08:46 CDT
From: "Christina Carter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: LMConners/MP3s

Hello - Reading through this discussion with varying degrees of interest.
Found many different points of view expressed, many different sides to the
issues. Agree with some arguments both for and against the posting of mp3s.
But, here I have to ask John Schuller please if he is going to call Loren
Mazzacane Conners (one of America's greatest living artists) "a *** crybaby"
to explain for those of us who didn't read the interview just what it is
about his views that he disagrees with. I go further also to suggest that
perhaps he could have found a different, more thoughtful, and more
considerate
way to express his disagreement.

It is unclear to me what connection at all there is between LMC and the
ongoing discussion on whether John Zorn is justified in his views against
the posting of his music.

I do find the rampant consumer rights (at the expense of all else) culture
in the United States distasteful.


Christina Carter



________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #933
*******************************


 To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
       "[e-mail]"
 with
       "unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
 in the body of the message.

 For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
 "help" to the same address.  Do not use quotes in your message.

 A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
 subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
 in the commands above with "zorn-list".

 Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
 pub/lists/zorn-list/archive.  These are organized by date.

 Problems? Email the list owner at [e-mail]