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Zorn List Digest        Wednesday, May 10 2000        Volume 02 : Number 932



In this issue:
-
       Re: LMConners/MP3s
       Re: LMConners/MP3s
       Re: Fw: Metallica are fucking morons
       Re: Zorns NO to MP3
       Re: Zorns NO to MP3
       Re: Zorns NO to MP3
       Re: LMConners
       Re: Metallica are fucking morons
       increasingly off-topic
       Re: Metallica are fucking morons
       Re: Metallica are fucking morons
       Re: increasingly off-topic
       Re: Metallica are fucking morons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:08:46 CDT
From: "Christina Carter" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: LMConners/MP3s

Hello - Reading through this discussion with varying degrees of interest.
Found many different points of view expressed, many different sides to the
issues. Agree with some arguments both for and against the posting of mp3s.
But, here I have to ask John Schuller please if he is going to call Loren
Mazzacane Conners (one of America's greatest living artists) "a *** crybaby"
to explain for those of us who didn't read the interview just what it is
about his views that he disagrees with. I go further also to suggest that
perhaps he could have found a different, more thoughtful, and more
considerate
way to express his disagreement.

It is unclear to me what connection at all there is between LMC and the
ongoing discussion on whether John Zorn is justified in his views against
the posting of his music.

I do find the rampant consumer rights (at the expense of all else) culture
in the United States distasteful.


Christina Carter




>From: "John Schuller" <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3
>Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:59:08 PDT
>
>Why may I ask does this make me sad?
>
>I get real tired of the way a lot of artists act about this type of thing.
>I
>find quite a bit of local musicians in Seattle (where I am from) spend more
>time worrying about how to get grants so they don't have to work or pay for
>their own equipment than they do actually performing/composing/making
>music.
>
>Are we making music? Or are we making cheeseburgers and other products to
>sell?
>
>Has anyone read the Lorren MazzaCane Conners interview in Signal To Noise?
>I
>find his music to be brilliant and beautiful. But his attitude about
>everything makes me sick. What a fucking crybaby.
>
>But still, why does the fact that I think like this make me sad?
>
>John Schuller
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: [e-mail]
>To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3
>Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:14:09 EDT
>
>In a message dated 5/9/00 12:25:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>
><< So fuck musicians that whine about not making enough money. It should
>NEVER
>  be about the money. That is fucking sad.
>   >>
>YOU are fucking sad.
>
>matt mitchell
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>-
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 14:34:04 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: LMConners/MP3s

On Wed, 10 May 2000 16:08:46 CDT  "Christina Carter" wrote:
>
> I do find the rampant consumer rights (at the expense of all else) culture
> in the United States distasteful.

I am happy to see that I am not the only one to think that way. But the
success (at least economic) of the US is based on this rabid consummerism.
If people were thinking first and consumming after, the economy would
collapse right away. It is like bicycle: it is stable as long as you move...

I always say to Americans that in France everybody is the king but the
consummer :-). Some don't get it.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:47:38 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fw: Metallica are fucking morons

Actually, I've heard (second hand -- does anyone have the actual
quote?) that Metallica is taking a slightly different stance toward MP3s,
etc, than a black and white "MP3 is evil" view. As I understand it,
they are ok on trading of live recordings and boots, but strongly
against trading of album tracks.

I can understand this. My group Comma has released one CD; its other
incarnation, Gray Code, is in the process of recording another. These
project involve a much different degree of investment of energy and
money than live recordings.

We have a lot of recordings up on our own site
( http://www.metatronpress.com/mp3/ ). I'd be pleased to see them get
widely distributed, and have, in fact, been going through the site to
make sure that they're named in such a way as to be identifiable and,
in the case of full concerts online, are able to be recombined in such
a way as to retain their identity (and, thus, promotional value) when
Gnutellafied. Intentionally, a single track from the Comma CD is up
there.

While I'd love to see these get out there, I'd rather that the CD
tracks *not* be distributed via MP3, but be gotten as part of the full
album.

I realize that it may be impossible to stop the things from getting out.
OTOH: Back in the '60s, a pirate edition of The Lord of the Rings was
published by Ace Books, completely legal according to loopholes in
publishing law. Tolkein sent a message to his readers stating (this is
a paraphrase -- I don't have the exact text at hand), "Those who
believe in courtesy to, at least, living authors will refrain from
getting this edition."

What Metallica appears to want, if what I've heard is true, makes
sense. So does Sister Machine Gun's stance. Either is free to choose
which they want. Fans are able to choose also -- but I would hope
that those who believe in courtesy, at least, to the musicians whose
works they enjoy and collect will follow the musicians' wishes in
these matters.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:04:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3

> I get real tired of the way a lot of artists act about this type of
> thing. I find quite a bit of local musicians in Seattle (where I am
> from) spend more time worrying about how to get grants so they don't
> have to work or pay for their own equipment than they do actually
> performing/composing/making music.

Huh?  I'm not getting you at all here.

Imagine that you are forward-thinking young composer.  You are not,
however, on faculty somewhere or selling as many records as Arvo Part,
which I imagine are just about the only ways for forward-thinking
composing to pay the bills these days.  Your options are two:

1) Remain focused on your music.  First involving the rather tedious
process of filling our a bunch of forms and submitting to a battery of
interviews all revolving around why someone should just give you a bunch
of money so you can lock yourself in your efficiency and get back to what
you're really supposed to be doing with your life.  That is, spending all
your days making something beautiful.  Second, compose your brains
out.  Premiere to great acclaim.  Repeat as necessary.

2) Score a job at your local Borders.  Spend your days special ordering
Foreigner albums from your distributor and occasionally venturing into the
classical section to help customers find "that violin album with the
topless chick on the front."  Come home with some money in your
pocket and Ricky Martin on your mind.  If you have the energy, compose a
bit.  But what was it that you were working on in the first place?

Ok, so I'm being kind of snide and both of these situations are rather
idealized, but given the fact that the infrastructure is in place (as far
as this grant business you seem to be speaking out against), I'm not sure how
we can fault artists who simply are not going be making ends meet through
ticket or record sales or whatever for taking advantage of it.

> Are we making music? Or are we making cheeseburgers and other products
> to sell?

How about this: we're going to rather great lengths to continue making
music (keeping the music in mind all the while) so that we can avoid
making cheeseburgers.

A little aside as with regards to this whole MP3 business: had my first
vision of Napster yesterday via a crash course from a very enthusiastic
system administrator here at work - I stepped out to take care of a quick
errand and when I return what should I hear but one of my own songs coming
from the computer speakers.  I am "on" Napster.  I haven't even began to
sort out my feelings regarding this bizarre confluence of flattery and
creepiness.  Metallica isn't returning my calls, though...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:24:19 -0700
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3

>>>I get real tired of the way a lot of artists act about this type of
thing. I
find quite a bit of local musicians in Seattle (where I am from) spend more
time worrying about how to get grants so they don't have to work or pay for
their own equipment than they do actually performing/composing/making music.

Are we making music?<<<

Are you making music? If so, how do you make ends meet? If not, why did you
use 'we?'


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:36:25 PDT
From: "John Schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3

I guess by your definition, I am not a forward thinking musician.

By my definition I am.

I make music, not as a hobby or a job, but as a passion. (trust me, I am
stuck in the suck everyday with the rest) I make it for myself because I
love it, if I didn't I would go insane. I make it for others because I want
to give people the chance to enjoy it as well.

Therefore, I prefer to play free shows (unless it is out of my hands and the
place requires a door charge due to other artists or whatever.) I sell my
cd's for the cost of what they take for me to make. (and I actually lose
money on those projects and could care less that I do.) I have never stopped
anyone from video-taping or audio-taping any of my performances. I actually
take it as a great compliment. And from there if they are distributed in any
form it does not bother me. I would take that as a compliment to.

I let musicians who have no HTML experience ride for free on my website. I
book and present a FREE weekly music series in Seattle.

From all this I play anywhere from 3-10 shows a month, am always sold out of
my discs and have no complaints as far as breaking less than even.

I do not rely on anyone else's money to do what I do.

So I guess according to your definition I am not thinking forward. Sorry.

John Schuller

From: Tom Benton <[e-mail]>
To: John Schuller <[e-mail]>
CC: The Zorn List <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:04:25 -0500 (CDT)


 > I get real tired of the way a lot of artists act about this type of
 > thing. I find quite a bit of local musicians in Seattle (where I am
 > from) spend more time worrying about how to get grants so they don't
 > have to work or pay for their own equipment than they do actually
 > performing/composing/making music.

Huh?  I'm not getting you at all here.

Imagine that you are forward-thinking young composer.  You are not,
however, on faculty somewhere or selling as many records as Arvo Part,
which I imagine are just about the only ways for forward-thinking
composing to pay the bills these days.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:44:04 +0100
From: "Alastair Wilson" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: LMConners

Mind you, I went to see Jim O'Rourke this evening and was subjected (and I
use the word advisedly) to an hour of Loren Mazzacane Connors wanking off.
Alright, so I've not experienced his stuff before, but *really*. The emperor
has no clothes.

If it makes anyone feel better, Jim was a bit of a disappointment too. A
headliner who plays for less time than his support? And thinks it sufficient
to fumble through a few of his "Eureka" greatest hits? If only Fenn O'Berg
would play in London...

AW

NP: Low Life - Brotzmann/Laswell


Christina Carter  wrote, inter alia:

> But, here I have to ask John Schuller please if he is going to call Loren
> Mazzacane Conners (one of America's greatest living artists) "a ***
crybaby"
> to explain for those of us who didn't read the interview just what it is
> about his views that he disagrees with.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:02:11 EDT
From: "& c." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Metallica are fucking morons

Metallica owes as much of it success to bootlegging as it does to the
insecure minions of teenage boys who idolized them.  They are the kind that
buy every album twice and try to play the songs on guitar between whining
about how they can't get a girl.  Metallica and "testerone for those who
don't possess said hormone" bands will survive despite the efforts of the
"evil" computer geeks.

They'll always have the boys with their guitars.  That's who goes to the
shows.  That is if their parents let them.  Mp3 won't hurt, it will only
make them stronger if they don't fight it.

Zach
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:06:20 -0400
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: increasingly off-topic

>OTOH: Back in the '60s, a pirate edition of The Lord of the Rings was
>published by Ace Books, completely legal according to loopholes in
>publishing law. Tolkein sent a message to his readers stating (this is


If it's legal then it's not a pirate edition.  What the author (or
musician) wants is irrelevant, only the copyright holder's permission or
copyright law matters in this situation (ethical issues are something
completely different).  The Tolkien/Ace situation was a bit more complex in
that Ace thought that an edition without copyright notice meant that LOTR
was public domain, something that's in no sense a loophole.  Their
understanding was more or less correct, only it didn't quite apply to that
case.

LT

- -------------------------------------------
Full Alert Film Review
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/fafr.htm

Funhouse
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/funhouse.htm

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Gatzen <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Metallica are fucking morons

basically, who cares about Metallica now a days, I
lost interest when cliff died.


- --- "& c." <[e-mail]> wrote:
> Metallica owes as much of it success to bootlegging
> as it does to the
> insecure minions of teenage boys who idolized them.
> They are the kind that
> buy every album twice and try to play the songs on
> guitar between whining
> about how they can't get a girl.  Metallica and
> "testerone for those who
> don't possess said hormone" bands will survive
> despite the efforts of the
> "evil" computer geeks.
>
> They'll always have the boys with their guitars.
> That's who goes to the
> shows.  That is if their parents let them.  Mp3
> won't hurt, it will only
> make them stronger if they don't fight it.
>
> Zach
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> -
>


__________________________________________________
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http://im.yahoo.com/

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 23:15:58 -0400
From: "H." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Metallica are fucking morons

one more thing of interest I found: then I'll shut-up about it :)

clipped from
http://www.salon.com/tech/log/2000/05/10/napster_metallica/index.html

According to the Wall Street Journal, on Thursday the Federal Trade
Commission is expected to announce a formal complaint against the record
industry for artificially inflating CD prices. Fans have been complaining
about this for years -- it is, in fact, one of the main arguments of the
more ideologically driven MP3 traders, who claim that they are justified in
downloading those free Metallica tunes because the cost of the CD is so
unjustly astronomical ($16 for most CDs, as opposed to a production cost of
mere cents).

Well, it turns out that those fans weren't just mouthing off. The FTC's
charge -- which is expected to be announced with a simultaneous
settlement -- targets the way record companies force retail outlets to keep
prices high by denying "cooperative advertising" benefits to record
merchants who advertise discounts. Retailers can rake in tens of thousands
of dollars in "cooperative advertising" from record labels -- but if they
dare advertise store sales that undercut the minimum prices set by the
record label, the labels deny the outlets that money. Surprise! No one drops
their prices, and the high prices set by the record labels remain the
standard.

The FTC suit could potentially lower CD prices for all consumers.

out
  H


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:26:54 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: increasingly off-topic

On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 11:06:20PM -0400, Lang Thompson wrote:

> Their
> understanding was more or less correct, only it didn't quite apply to that
> case.

If I manage to understand this sentence, do I become a Zen master ?-)

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:28:02 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Metallica are fucking morons

On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 08:09:36PM -0700, Tom Gatzen wrote:
> basically, who cares about Metallica now a days, I
> lost interest when cliff died.

I lost interest for a while after the black album, but the new S&M has
grabbed me.

But then, I also like Dio :-)

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #932
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