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Zorn List Digest        Wednesday, May 10 2000        Volume 02 : Number 931



In this issue:
-
       RE: ribot y los cubanos
       RE: ribot y los cubanos
       RE: ribot y los cubanos
       RE: ribot y los cubanos
       Re: too many bull-shit on this list
       bad and good traders
       Ruben Gonzalez (was: ribot y los cubanos)
       Re: Zorns NO to MP3
       Re: Zorns NO to MP3
       Fw: Metallica are fucking morons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:07:18 -0700
From: "Dave Egan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: ribot y los cubanos

> I think that the record was fun (as long as Marc does not sing),
> and quite
> enjoyable. It is not intended to push the music to new territories which
> is fine with me.

Hmmmm.  I guess this CD would have gone over better with me if I hadn't
bought the Ruben Gonzalez CD the same day.  Ribot suffered some in
comparison.

- - Dave


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:46:45 -0300
From: Linares Hugo <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: ribot y los cubanos

> > I think that the record was fun (as long as Marc does not sing),
> > and quite
> > enjoyable. It is not intended to push the music to new territories which
> > is fine with me.
>
> Hmmmm.  I guess this CD would have gone over better with me if I hadn't
> bought the Ruben Gonzalez CD the same day.  Ribot suffered some in
> comparison.
>
> - Dave
>
>
    If you mean the amazing "Introducing Ruben Gonzales" (Nonesuch),  I
might say you're comparing butter with speed (trying to make a fine irony,
naturally, and please don't interpret it as an insult).
    I mean, Gonzalez's recording is intended serious per se (because he
is a serious piano player), while Ribot's project is probably pure fun
(though I like it a lot and I'm enjoying it by the way) and while one is an
original Cuban, the other is an American musician having fun, with respect.
At least, that is what I see.
    Beyond comparisons, Gonzalez is 80 years old and "Introducing..." is
his first cd as a leader, thanks to Ry Cooder's project "Buena Vista Social
Club", otherwise I'm not quite sure if he ever would have had any
possibility to record this (or any other) cd.

    I don't know how old Marc Ribot is, but I consider both very
talented musicians with different futures (because of age, naturally).

    I think Fidel Castro might consider his politics inside The Island,
eh?.

    Viva el ron!

    Hugo Linares (not a leftist precisely, but an open minded guy)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:06:29 -0400
From: "Jim McLoughlin" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: ribot y los cubanos

Hi there

>     Beyond comparisons, Gonzalez is 80 years old and "Introducing..." is
> his first cd as a leader, thanks to Ry Cooder's project "Buena
> Vista Social
> Club", otherwise I'm not quite sure if he ever would have had any
> possibility to record this (or any other) cd.

It is the first CD released as a leader, but an album called
"Indestructable" was recently released.  It's from a recording session in
1975 (from what I can infer via the Spanish liner notes).  No horns - just
Ruben, bass, and 3 percussion players.  His chops are expectedly sharper and
he wails on piano (even some haunting organ on a few tracks).  I believe the
CD is on a cuban label called Egrem.  Found mine at J&R music world in NYC,
so it should be around.


Jim


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:02:32 -0300
From: Linares Hugo <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: ribot y los cubanos

> > I think that the record was fun (as long as Marc does not sing), and
> quite
> > enjoyable. It is not intended to push the music to new territories which
> > is fine with me.
> >
> >         Patrice.
>
>
>
> at first i hated marc's singing on the cd, but i sort of got into it. i
> thought he was being serious, but now i'm quite sure it's meant as a bit
> of a joke. his american accent when he sings (?) spanish is a good
> laugh.
>

    Well, I don't find joking "his American accent when he sings
Spanish" so far, as Americans wouldn't find joking if I sing in English; or
would they?

    Joking,

    Hugo Linares (The Joker...)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:46:53 PDT
From: "John Schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: too many bull-shit on this list

Hey Dick Cheese,

Nice English. Anyway, quit being a fucking crybaby. Just change your
subscription over to the digest version. Does that make you feel better? How
about a nice verbal hug? Maybe that would help?

John Schuller

Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 23:27:47 +0200
From: Filip Wilms <[e-mail]>
Subject: too many bull-shit on this list

Today I received 39 messages from the zorn-list, an just a few of them
where concerning jazz.
In the rest of them they wrote some useless bull-shit, instead of  some
interesting concert or CD reviews.
Is it that hard to understand that this is a mailing list and not a
chat-channel?
By the way, who gives a fuck about John Zorn beeing against MP3.

Yours sincerely,
                             Evil Dick


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:57:11 +0200
From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: bad and good traders

Marcin Witkowski wrote:

> I told him about my huge collection of his live shows, some
> in perfect quality and very unique like early Naked Cities (Bremen).
> And what he said... He take my card and said he is VERY
> interested in
> release Naked City live and if I could send him several
> shows from my  collection....!!!!

And here is what Kazunori said, when he replied to me with a sad
message:

> On the other hand, if the music on the tape is really good, he
[Zorn] is usually
> the one to try his best to rush its release officially.  That's how
he is.

So, in a response to him, I suggested to publish the show from last
year's Warsaw Summer Jazz Days, it was Masada String Trio, Bar Kokhba
and Masada, one evening, three 50 minute sets, excellent show (quite
rare setup, huh?). It's recorded, available for mastering etc. I think
I'll send a copy to Kazunori, maybe Tzadik would really print it.

This show was one of the reasons why I made the MP3 samples. Why?

Ken Waxman pointed out:

> All well and good and I'm sure you motives are as clean as the
> snow around
> Cracow, but you forget about the next step. By making generally
available
> to the public music that Zorn (or others) have not sanctioned you're
> allowing someone else to eventually sell it.

Well, since there is no snow around Cracow now... Many people asked me
for a copy of the Masada WSJD'99 show. They wanted to pay me. Any
money. I could make little fortune spreading copies of this show, but
I don't want to do it, this is not my money. I know, that some people
were actually selling copies. Ken sais, that someone could sell my
MP3s. I would say something opposite: this recording was sold, and
thanks to my MP3s people stoped to buy it. They could get it for free
from the web. Zorn didn't get any cash from the guy who was selling
CDR copies, Zorn didn't got any cash from me and my MP3s. But I hope
you see a difference here.

One more aspect of MP3: Everybody knows that shows are recorded.
Everybody knows, there are tapes in circulation. There are honest
traders, maniac-fans, who exchange it, without any money, one for one,
for their own use and pleasure. But there are bad traders, who make
real bootlegs and SELL it. Free MP3 would restrain people from buying
bootlegs. Nobody would make money, neither the artist, nor a bad
trader.

Marcin pozdrawiam, a reszcie m=F3wie:
Regards
    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno at emd dot pl] www.emd.pl


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:58:02 -0700
From: "Dave Egan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ruben Gonzalez (was: ribot y los cubanos)

>     If you mean the amazing "Introducing Ruben Gonzales" (Nonesuch),  I
> might say you're comparing butter with speed (trying to make a fine irony,
> naturally, and please don't interpret it as an insult).
>     I mean, Gonzalez's recording is intended serious per se (because he
> is a serious piano player), while Ribot's project is probably pure fun
> (though I like it a lot and I'm enjoying it by the way) and while
> one is an
> original Cuban, the other is an American musician having fun,
> with respect.
> At least, that is what I see.
Yes, that is the CD I was talking about.  Of course I understand that the
intent of the two CDs are different.  It's just that I was instantly knocked
out by Ruben's playing, while Ribot's band didn't even sound like a good
imitation of a Cuban band to me.  Maybe if I'd listened to Ribot's CD by
itself I might have been fooled, being that I haven't had much exposure to
real Cuban music before now.  Having the Ruben Gonzalez CD playing right
next to it though, I just couldn't listen to Ribot's CD.  It made me want to
go back to the real thing.  Even if Los Cubanos Postizos is just a lark,
well, Ruben is quite a joker himself.  Ry Cooder describes him saying "He's
like a Cuban cross between Thelonious Monk and Felix the Cat".  That seems
spot on to me!  His music is very playful, as well as being soulful and
sophisticated.  I've had the delight of seeing him in person twice, and he
even behaves like Felix would have.  The conductor of the band rubs him on
the head just like I would to my cats.  It was a real treat to see him in
every way.  OK, so the point is, these are both fun CDs.  It's just that one
of them rings true, and the other is false.  Viva Gonzalez!

- - Dave

NP: Latin Playboys "Dose"


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:59:08 PDT
From: "John Schuller" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3

Why may I ask does this make me sad?

I get real tired of the way a lot of artists act about this type of thing. I
find quite a bit of local musicians in Seattle (where I am from) spend more
time worrying about how to get grants so they don't have to work or pay for
their own equipment than they do actually performing/composing/making music.

Are we making music? Or are we making cheeseburgers and other products to
sell?

Has anyone read the Lorren MazzaCane Conners interview in Signal To Noise? I
find his music to be brilliant and beautiful. But his attitude about
everything makes me sick. What a fucking crybaby.

But still, why does the fact that I think like this make me sad?

John Schuller










From: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail], [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:14:09 EDT

In a message dated 5/9/00 12:25:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< So fuck musicians that whine about not making enough money. It should
NEVER
  be about the money. That is fucking sad.
   >>
YOU are fucking sad.

matt mitchell

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:22:44 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3

On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 12:59:08PM -0700, John Schuller wrote:

> I get real tired of the way a lot of artists act about this type of thing. I
> find quite a bit of local musicians in Seattle (where I am from) spend more
> time worrying about how to get grants so they don't have to work or pay for
> their own equipment than they do actually performing/composing/making music.

Unfortunately, surviving as a musician in our economy involves a lot of
work that doesn't directly involve music. Equipment, studios,
transportation, eating, etc, require money. Grants are a way of getting
that money. So is having a day job, but there's a trade-off.

I haven't pursued grants much for my music, but in doing so, I've
limited the scope of what I can do. I'm working mostly in small
ensembles, in chamber spaces. I'd love to be able to do a full-scale
opera or stadium-tour sized performance. I'd love to see the musicians
I like be able to do this. And I realize that to do so involves, in
some way, engaging with our society's economic structures.

It all comes out in the music, in the end.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:52:21 -0400
From: "H." <[e-mail]>
Subject: Fw: Metallica are fucking morons

>>an interesting perspective on the whole metallica/mp3/napster thing from
>>Chris Randall (aka Sister Machine Gun):
>>
>>As for SMG songs on Napster, who fucking cares? You want a song, download
>>it. You want art, buy the record. MP3s are like cassette singles that
>>record labels give out in the millions. (I have in my house a box of 300
>>Sins Of The Flesh promos, that contain the entire album. These were given
>>away with abandon, probably to the tune of 15,000 or so. It sure did hurt
>>my career.)
>>
>>I am a strong proponant of Chuck D's New Business Model, in which you make
>>your music, make it available, and if people like you and like it, they'll
>>buy your CD, which has something extra, and come to your show, where you
>>make the real money. In my _long_ experience, this model will win out over
>>the normal model, because the independant artist can roll with the
punches.
>>
>>I'll even give you a metaphor. The RIAA is a semi truck full of labels and
>>artists. An independant label (I'll use Positron!, but you can pick one at
>>will...) is a Yugo, which can only hold a couple people and their stuff.
>>
>>The entertainment industry is a busy two-way street.
>>
>>You have to make a u-turn.
>>
>>Which one would you rather be driving?
>>
>>The new business model will win out over the old one, trust me on this.
>>It's hard to turn this industry, and it certainly won't turn on a dime,
but
>>labels like ours are finding that you can make a decent living if you just
>>provide a quality product in a timely fashion, and operate with a sense of
>>propriety. I _HATE_ the majors, and have little respect for artists that
>>whine about (a) their deals, (b) their fans or (c) piracy. Which brings us
>>to Metallica.
>>
>>Lars, Lars, Lars. You are such a fucking idiot, I can't even begin to put
>>it in to words. Rest assured, I'll give it a try.
>>
>>For exhibit A, I propose Cliff 'Em All. This VHS video has a sticker on
the
>>front that says "If this is priced more than $19.98, steal it." On the
>>back, it says it is, among other things, (and I'm directly quoting James
>>Hetfield here) "a compilation of bootleg footage shot by sneaky
>Metallifux."
>>
>>So, if you have a video camera, you're sneaky. If you have a computer,
>>you're a thief? There is _no_ difference, in the eyes of the law, between
>>taping a live show and trading it with like-minded individuals, and making
>>an MP3 of a song and doing the same. Both are equally illegal, under the
>>Copyright Protection Act.
>>
>>So, why does Metallica apparantly sanction one, but not the other? Who
>>knows. On to exhibit B.
>>
>>Metallica has always sanctioned the taping of live performances, but the
>>recent Load tour took this to a new level. On the entire tour, at any
show,
>>you could buy a 'taping ticket' through Ticketmaster. If you had one of
>>these tickets, you could then bring in your sound or video recording
>>equipment, and set up in a special area designated for the purpose. You
>>could either tape with microphones, or from a board feed provided by the
>>band. Metallica has always maintained that they are better on stage than
>>they are in the studio. So they are, in their minds at least, allowing you
>>to record their best face.
>>
>>Of course, it always has been, and probably always will be, illegal to
make
>>a recording of a band's performance and trade or sell it. But Metallica
was
>>trying to duplicate the touring success of artists like Jimmy Buffet (top
>>grossing touring act for the last 5 years) and the Greatfull Dead (top
>>grossing for the 15 years before that.
>>
>>Those two artists realized a long time ago that there was little money to
>>be made in selling records, when compared to the money you could make
>>playing to sold-out arenas every night. The Rolling Stones know this. Pink
>>Floyd knows this. Chuck D also knows this. Metallica knows this, but
>>they've had a couple tours tank, and it makes them worried.
>>
>>Anyways, Napster's purpose is to make trading music over the internet
easy.
>>Trading music over the internet is illegal. Thus, by definition, Napster
>>must be illegal. But technically speaking, the program and company aren't
>>breaking the law. You are, when you use their services. Kind of like it's
>>not Smith and Wesson's fault if you use one of their products to blow some
>>stupid cunt's head off. However, the end result is the same.
>>
>>There is no practical way to stop people from trading MP3s. Anyone that
>>thinks Napster is the end-all-be-all for this sort of thing obviously has
>>no experience with IRC, the _real_ clearing house. If Napster is a smoking
>>pistol, IRC is one of those chain cannons in the nose of an AH-64 Apache
>>Helicopter, the kind that shoots bullets made of spent uranium 30 times a
>>second that chew up Iraqi tanks as if they were Pez candies.
>>
>>So, since there is no practical way to stop it, the obvious choice is to
>>embrace it. When you think about it, which would you rather have? All the
>>songs of the Burn album on MP3, or the CD itself, if you were going to
>>listen at home? You'd rather have the CD, I'm willing to bet. In fact, I
>>have bet. I don't even bother searching for MP3 sites that contain my
>>music, and the Rarities and Remixes compilation is comprised almost
>>entirely of MP3s we have released at one time or another.
>>
>>I search Napster for SMG all the time, but only out of curiosity. Usually,
>>you'll find the song 'Burn,' and the AC/DC cover we did for Cleopatra. Not
>>much more. You would be hard pressed, if you were actually a fan, to
>>collect my entire released catalog merely by using Napster. I submit that
>>you couldn't do it. And if all you want to hear is the song 'Burn,' well,
>>I'd be an asshole to make you spend $17.99 (or whatever TVT is charging
>>these days) for that one song. Go ahead and download it, if you can. If
you
>>like it enough, you'll go buy the record. If you don't, no hard feelings.
>>
>>Back to the subject at hand. Metallica is a band that exists at the level
>>it does today as a direct result of bootlegging, where one jackass
>>meshback-capped redneck is giving a mix tape to another of the same
>>persuasion, increasing the band's attendance at shows, and thus album
>sales.
>>
>>Metallica now has money, as a direct result of bootlegging. Metallica now
>>spends the money they made that way fighting bootlegging.
>>
>>Metallica are fucking morons.
>>
>>-CR
>
>


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #931
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