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Zorn List Digest        Wednesday, May 10 2000        Volume 02 : Number 930



In this issue:
-
       Re: Zorn's NO to MP3
       Re: that's not music!
       copyright infringement and artistic intentionality
       Concert Radian (no Zorn content)
       Gift for Zorn (was NO fo MP3)
       Re: lsdc+w (long)
       ribot y los cubanos
       the usual catching up (Taylor/Bailey, Incus)
       Boston Happinings?
       Re: ribot y los cubanos
       Re: ribot y los cubanos
       Re: ribot y los cubanos
       Re: Zorn's NO to MP3
       lsdc+w disclaimr
       Re[2]: ribot y los cubanos
       Re: Zorn's NO to MP3 - more info (long)
       Re: Zorns NO to MP3
       Re: Zorns NO to MP3
       Re: too many bull-shit on this list
       Re: too many bull-shit on this list
       Re: ribot y los cubanos

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 18:03:42 -0500
From: Diego Gruber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn's NO to MP3

> Mapping familiarity to acceptance is erroneous. I would say, for example,
> that Robert Fripp is quite familiar with the Web, yet is against the
> spread of King Crimson bootlegs and MP3s. QED.

Good point, but I think he could be an exception, and his reasons could be more
objective. But I still think that in most cases musicians more familiariazed with
the possibilities of the Internet will be more open minded about this issue. I used
the Spruance example because this issue is pretty notorious in Mr. Bungle, where
the members of the band themselves cannot agree on letting their old demos be
posted up on a website. Trey is the one that favors this possibility the most, and
judging for his website he's probably the most familiar with the web within  the
band, whereas Patton seems to be the one against it.

This is just a theory, of course i could be wrong. I guess we'd have to run some
statistical figures to really find out.

D



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 23:27:37 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: that's not music!

A silly image:

Crocodile Dundee Meets the Composer

"You call that music? That's not music!" (pulls open his coat and whips
out a massive didjeridoo) "*This* is music!"

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn                  http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 05:42:40 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: copyright infringement and artistic intentionality

This topic of course gets rehashed all the time on these lists and it's
scarcely put into any kind of context.  For many, in fact, the issue becomes
a kind of mantra.  The same people who might break a speed limit, indulge in
an illegal substance, or share a computer program, will make a big issue
about the "legality" of copyright infringement regarding music.  And the
whole matter takes on a different hue when one sits in a third world country
and distributors make no allowances for local price regimes on material that
might be necessary for the proper functioning of people's lives, e.g.
imports of engineering textbooks, etc.  Before one gets too windy about IPR,
one should give a careful read to Vandana Shiva's Biopiracy and see just who
are the real violators if IPR with regard to biotechnology and how the US
courts allow this practice to continue.

To be frank, though, the entire issue of the ownership of creativity is very
complex.  While I think that every artist, writer, or musician should be
compensated for their work, I don't think any artist, writer or musician
actually "owns" what they produce.  The creative act is far too mysterious
to be reduced to the issue of ownership.  There are too many precursors to
what one actually does such that anything that is created should be
rightfully owned by those who came before.  (e.g. Charlie Parker's estate
has legitimate claims on Zorn's earnings, etc.).

I find it a bit hard to believe that a man who would decontextualize a
famous and abhorrent photograph of Leng Tsche and appropriate it for a
purely "aesthetic" purpose, producing and selling his own "art," would
bother making bones about MP3s.  It seems just a bit incongruous to me, but
perhaps Mr. Zorn is just getting a bit old.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:13:11 GMT+0100
From: "Jeroen de Boer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Concert Radian (no Zorn content)

THE CYBERSLAG FOUNDATION IN ASSOCIATION WITH MEDIA INITIATIVE
GRONINGEN (MIG) & USVA PRESENT RADIAN

Monday, May 22
21.30hr
Entrance: fl. 12,50
USVA Theatre, Munnekeholm 10, Groningen
info: [e-mail]

RADIAN:
Martin Brandlmayr: drums, vibraphone, programming
Stefen Nemeth: digitale and analogue synthesizers
John Norman: bass

Recently the Viennese tio Radian released their second album on the
influential and authoritative Mego-label. 'Glitch', a denomination for
music derived from the imperfections and defects of electronica, has
been tried and tested to the extreme by a variety of Mego-artists.
Scratches, crackles, high-pitched tones and a lot of space typify a
genre which could, maybe in 50 years, be defined as the 3rd Viennese
School. Later this year the Cyberslag Foundation i.a.w. MIG will
present a Mego-Showcase, featuring more of their artists.

Why already a Mego-act now? Well, Radian discerns from label-acts such
as Peter Rehberg and Christian Fennesz, because they aren't part of
the modern army of laptop-jockeys, who, armed with a Powerbook,
conquer the world of electronica. No, Radian is a band with a drummer,
a keyboardplayer and a bassplayer, who present an organic being of
jazz and electronica. They suitably break out of the straitjacket of
digital rules, and compose refreshing and exciting works, although
they still share a          touch of minimalism  (ein Monat
arbeit/zwei Minuten Musik=85) with some of their digital collegues.

First the sound: Radian's basis is completely analogue. Only the
sampler adds digital data. Then there is human interaction. Unlike a
lot of other electronic music composers Radian chooses not to use the
computer-equipment to complete control soundcreation & orchestration.
The music of Radian obtains it's added value by means of
improvisation. Therefore both their approach and final product can
only be described as adventurous and exciting.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------------------------------------------------

RADIAN: TG 11 CD (MEGO/RHIZ 1). "Austria's Radian operate in the space
between music and noise, between live and sampled sounds,  between
driving me up the wall and being intriguing beyond words. Drummer
Martin Brandlmayr produces rolling, stop-start meters both funky and
freestyle while bassist John Norman occasionally adds muted sonic
waves. The essence of Radian is dependent on Stefan Nemeth's Korg MS
10 playing and the group's overall integration of noise shrapnel,
piercing tones and electronic feedback. These sounds are both
microscopic and minimal, cold and bitter but acceptable, like a
hungover Sunday morning where the night's revelry still echoes through
your ringing ears. Fascinating." (from: Forced Exposure).


Jeroen de Boer
music director Open Electronic Festival
Cyberslag Foundation
Munnekeholm 10
9711JA Groningen
The Netherlands
tel: [phone]
fax: [phone]
[e-mail]
http://www.cyberslag.com
- ----------------------------------------

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:21:18 +0100
From: [e-mail] (Marcin Witkowski)
Subject: Gift for Zorn (was NO fo MP3)

     Hi hard fans.

     A year ago, just after Warsaw Summer Jazz Days I had an opportunity to
     speak with John Zorn. I caught him at the airport during check in. To
     be honest I was very frighten of his reaction and affraid what he said
     when I ask him to sign over 30 booklets in such an incovinient
     situation.
     What was my surprise when he kindly agreed to do that. Signing one
     after another he became more an more happy and surprised looking at my
     rare japanese first-issues. Then pushing by emotions and a blood in
     my brain I told him about my huge collection of his live shows, some
     in perfect quality and very unique like early Naked Cities (Bremen).
     And what he said... He take my card and said he is VERY interested in
     release Naked City live and if I could send him several shows from my
     collection....!!!!
     He didn't kill me, "what are you doing you bloody bootlegger"...
     nothing like that.
     Of course, he also never contact me again (probably lost my card,
     thats why :-))

     But, what I'd like to say is: maybe we, zornlisters, could DO
     something for our guru, maybe we should find among us some perfect
     quality live shows (I believe everyone of us has got at least one) and
     simple send a DAT tape or CDr to him. I'm absolutely sure that he even
     doesn't know that some of them exists.
     Then he will have a possibility
     to release it, earn some money and we (tapers/traders) will live
     further with "clear conscience".

Marcin
(trader from Poland)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:40:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: lsdc+w (long)

Kurt:

You speak of "Nobody Loves Me But My Mother" as a Loretta Lynn tune yet
your listing (and any version I've heard of it) is by B.B. King.

Is there some secret Coal Miner's Daughter Sings The Blues
session we don't know about?

Ken Waxman

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:04:16 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: ribot y los cubanos

yeah, the band's far better live. kinda a party band, lotta fun if not a lot
more challenging than the record (the first one anyway -- haven't heard the new
one).

i only see them occasionally, but the band seems increasingly to be a vehicle
for ribot's solos, rather than a more democratic unit (or whatever), if that
sways you in any way.

np: nearly god -- heaven



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:05:13 -0500
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: the usual catching up (Taylor/Bailey, Incus)

Even when my computer's not in the shop I often have trouble keeping
up with the list in digest mode, so there's a lot to go over here.

First, Brian and Jon descriptions of the Taylor/Bailey gig were good,
but I wanted to add that I was particularly excited to hear Bailey
play live with someone who shares his strong sense of harmonic/pitch
structure. (& at least for Carol & me we had an excuse to seem
stupefied after the gig: we were. We'd been up at 6 AM to get the
train to NYC from Boston and spent 6-7 hours walking around the
Whitney & PS1. But we also had surprisingly good Texas BBQ in Jackson
Heights!)

Someone asked about whether all the discs on Incus were free
improvisation.  The answer is no, if you look at the whole history of
the label. They haven't  been reissued on CD, at least by Incus, but
several of the early LPs were of composed works with room for free
improvisors. Most notably Barry Guy's Ode, the first recorded
composition for the London Jazz Composers Orchestra which Intakt has
recently put out on CD. But Kenny Wheeler's album (which I haven't
heard in years) was similar, if less ambitious/more conservative. I
think there may have been a few small group LPs that included tunes
with heads, though I'm not positive; perhaps the first Howard Riley
ensemble disc, maybe even the earliest Tony Oxley.

In any case, while the recent discs have all been free improv, at
least a few of the first albums on the label  weren't. Now go try to
find any of them, eh?

Bests,

Herb
- --
Herb Levy
NEW MAILING ADDRESS:  P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, TX  76147
NEW PHONE: [phone]
same old e-mail: [e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:13:17 -0400
From: Anthony Fabio <[e-mail]>
Subject: Boston Happinings?

Pardon the cross postings,

i will be in boston may 12-14, does anyone know of any good music then? ill
miss the jazz fest by a week.

tony

_______________________________
Anthony Fabio, PhD, MPH, RD
Visiting Assistant Professor
Center for Injury Research and Control
University of Pittsburgh Medical Center
Phone [phone]
E-mail: [e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:17:29 +0200
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ribot y los cubanos

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> yeah, the band's far better live. kinda a party band, lotta fun if not a lot
> more challenging than the record (the first one anyway -- haven't heard the new
> one).
>

i'd agree with that. didn't like the 1st cd that much, but LOVED the
concert. (let me add that i'm a big fan of ribot's playing, but usually
don't dig his solo efforts that much.)

yours,
patRice

np:
charlie chan / d. gillespie / b. powell / m. roach / c. mingus: jazz at
massey hall

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:35:47 +0200
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ribot y los cubanos

patRice wrote:

>
> i'd agree with that. didn't like the 1st cd that much, but LOVED the
> concert. (let me add that i'm a big fan of ribot's playing, but usually
> don't dig his solo efforts that much.)
>
oops - of course i don't mind his guitar solos, but his solo projects
where he is bandleader. i prefer his playing when he's under the
guidance of, e.g., our man jz.

 yours,
 patRice

 np:
 charlie chan / d. gillespie / b. powell / m. roach / c. mingus: jazz at
 massey hall

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 08:36:16 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ribot y los cubanos

On Wed, 10 May 2000 17:17:29 +0200  patRice wrote:
>
> [e-mail] wrote:
> >
> > yeah, the band's far better live. kinda a party band, lotta fun if not a lot
> > more challenging than the record (the first one anyway -- haven't heard the new
> > one).
>
> i'd agree with that. didn't like the 1st cd that much, but LOVED the
> concert. (let me add that i'm a big fan of ribot's playing, but usually
> don't dig his solo efforts that much.)

But it is nice once in a while to have a record by a downtowner that does not
scare your friends (assuming that you don't choose them by the thickness of
their Zorn record section :-), and even more amazing: one that they enjoy and
might ask you to play (as opposed to the ones that you try to put down their
throat).

I think that the record was fun (as long as Marc does not sing), and quite
enjoyable. It is not intended to push the music to new territories which
is fine with me.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:56:02 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn's NO to MP3

In a message dated 5/8/00 6:37:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< So,
 we find that Zorn is in it for more than just his music.
 Fuck capitalism.
 Let the rich bastards pay for his music.
 We should have it for free. >>
I SINCERELY hope you are fucking kidding.  You also can't possibly be a
fucking musician.

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:00:26 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: lsdc+w disclaimr

odd -- that interminably long eugene chadbourne sat somewhere in the ether for a
week before showing up on the list. in the meantime, i've spoken with ec and
learned that it's not all precise. the liner notes aren't as comprehensive as i
had taken them to be, thus some musicians are left out. jz is on more tracks
than i give him credit for, for one thing. also, i gaffd on the shockabilly
lineup.

for best info, goto
http://www.nr.infi.net/~chadnc/HouseOfChadula/EugeneHome.html



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:05:38 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: ribot y los cubanos

patRice wrote:

> i'd agree with that. didn't like the 1st cd that much, but LOVED the
> concert. (let me add that i'm a big fan of ribot's playing, but usually
> don't dig his solo efforts that much.)

yeah, ribot as bandleader (rootless cosmopolitans, shrek) ain his best stuff.
but the two solo records i have (don't blame me, plays the music of frantz
cassieus (sp?)) are both great, and quite different. shoe string symphonettes is
quite nice too, and very different than what i've heard him do elsewhere.

book of heads i guess isn't filed in my mind as a ribot disc, since it didn't
come to mind...

and i like his singing.

kg



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:12:16 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorn's NO to MP3 - more info (long)

Anyone who thinks that its OK to distribute mp3's without permission just
because they are not official releases should read Milan Kundera's
'Testaments Betrayed' and then get back to me.

Artists release specific albums for a reason.

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:14:09 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3

In a message dated 5/9/00 12:25:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< So fuck musicians that whine about not making enough money. It should
NEVER
 be about the money. That is fucking sad.
  >>
YOU are fucking sad.

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:15:23 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Zorns NO to MP3

In a message dated 5/9/00 3:03:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< It would indeed end there if people didn't record it. Since they do, it
 keeps on going, and so should artists' rights regarding what they created.
  >>

Yes.

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:17:24 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: too many bull-shit on this list

In a message dated 5/9/00 5:34:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< Today I received 39 messages from the zorn-list, an just a few of them
 where concerning jazz.
 In the rest of them they wrote some useless bull-shit, instead of  some
 interesting concert or CD reviews.
 Is it that hard to understand that this is a mailing list and not a
 chat-channel?
 By the way, who gives a fuck about John Zorn beeing against MP3.

 Yours sincerely,
                             Evil Dick
  >>
Apparently a lot of people care.  It's called DIALOGUE.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 12:18:44 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: too many bull-shit on this list

At least be grammatically correct and say too MUCH bull-shit...

goddamn

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:56:04 +0200
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ribot y los cubanos

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> On Wed, 10 May 2000 17:17:29 +0200  patRice wrote:
>
> But it is nice once in a while to have a record by a downtowner that does not
> scare your friends (assuming that you don't choose them by the thickness of
> their Zorn record section :-), and even more amazing: one that they enjoy and
> might ask you to play (as opposed to the ones that you try to put down their
> throat).
>
> I think that the record was fun (as long as Marc does not sing), and quite
> enjoyable. It is not intended to push the music to new territories which
> is fine with me.
>
>         Patrice.

very true indeed. (i did stop trying to put music i'm into down other
people's throat a long time ago. too much hassle.)

at first i hated marc's singing on the cd, but i sort of got into it. i
thought he was being serious, but now i'm quite sure it's meant as a bit
of a joke. his american accent when he sings (?) spanish is a good
laugh.

patRice
(the other one)

np: mingus at antibes

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #930
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