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Zorn List Digest        Tuesday, March 14 2000        Volume 02 : Number 889



In this issue:
-
       Re: death ambient + jon rose
       Pharaoh Sanders (was RE: Recent Goo)
       nyc listings
       RE: Recent Goo
       current jz conception
       Re: clapping after solos
       Re: death ambient
       Bley
       Re: zorn   interview - interview in Soundpiecies
       Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
       Odp: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
       Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
       Re: Odp: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
       Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
       bacharach and gainsbourg

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:21:31 GMT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: death ambient + jon rose

Kurt wrote:
>pickd up the new [Death Ambient] cd, too, but haven't listened to it yet.
>working my way through
>my new bud powell box set first.

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I'd love to know how the two
D.A. CDs are, and which one folks like better.  I'm listening to the new
Ikue Mori, but I need to get through it again before I drop some comments on
the list.

>also pickd up a jon rose disc i haven't played yet. got me thinking, i
>haven't
>heard much talk of him round these cyberparts. i've been really digging to
>him
>lately. anyone else?

Never gotten around to checking him out.  I remember reading in some
interview or profile that he made a lot of enemies in the improvising
community for releasing a recording with a cast of dozens, without asking
for permission to do so.  I can't substantiate this now, but what's a little
gossip?

- ----s
______________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:32:41 GMT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Pharaoh Sanders (was RE: Recent Goo)

>    [Linares Hugo]
>    By the way, which Sanders' recording was Upper Egypt originally
>included? Label?

TAUHID, a super-classic featuring Sharrock.  Damn!
(I think this was recently reissued on Impulse.)

One of my very favorite Pharaoh albums, and a choice bit of post-Trane stuff
that doesn't come across as terribly derivative, IMHO.

- ----s
______________________________________________________
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 14:37:34 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: nyc listings

philz (and everyone else):

for the best nyc jazz listings, go to www.users.interport.net/~eye/jazznyc.html

kg



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:34:50 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Joaqu=EDn_Villaverde_Mart=EDnez?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Recent Goo

> [Linares Hugo]
> By the way, which Sanders' recording was Upper Egypt originally
> included? Label?
>

Hello
It was included on
Pharoah Sanders: Tauhid (Impulse!)

Joaquφn Villaverde Martφnez
[e-mail]





- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:52:22 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: current jz conception

<< Looking at the statements about music he's made over the years, his ideas
on
 the Theatre of Musical Optics and the liner notes to Spillane, I have to
 admit that I'm rather curious as what he's concieving of lately. >>

concert music, staying home and churning it out. recently finished piece for
violin and chamber orch. working on piece for soprano and orchestra. and
there's the surrealist suite for vln, cello, piano. no plans to write more
masada tunes, game pieces, etc.. but the file-card method is still
interesting to him. this is not top secret info -- it's all from his
pre-concert chat this past thursday at columbia u, where the aforementioned
suite was performed.

joseph

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 02:33:16 +0100
From: 2L <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: clapping after solos

> now off to see Toshinori Kondo (with the fabulous DJ Grazhoppa en Dirk
> Wachtelaer)

Any other tour dates for Toshinori Kondo in Europe?
Thanx.
2L.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:31:11 -0500
From: phil zampino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: death ambient

kg ([e-mail]) wrote:

>also pickd up a jon rose disc i haven't played yet. got me thinking, i haven't
>heard much talk of him round these cyberparts. i've been really digging to him
>lately. anyone else?

actually i was just listening to the jon rose/miya masaoka cd
yesterday (probably released in '98 or '99 but new to me) and
thinking how compatible these two experimenters worked together, and
what great environments of sound i associate with rose...  he's one
of the few artists i'll buy anything from, no questions asked; one of
the more fractured conceptualists out there :)

philz


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:32:35 +1100
From: "Lee, Edgar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Bley

I've just read the Paul Bley autobiography. Mostly it's an interesting read
because of his descriptions of the avant garde and jazz scenes he's been
involved in. Unfortunately it's too short, there could have been a lot more
written on some of the lesser known musicians such as Dewey Johnson, Marion
Brown, amongst others. Also, Bley's rather large "I did it first" style ego
becomes wearying without him often crediting the valuable contributions of
others. However, it does provide some context for understanding Paul Bley's
style. I find reading about musicians illuminating, just as I try to read
any John Zorn article or interview,  because for me music is more than the
silver discs that I buy from a record shop (instead of downloading via the
net).


Edgar


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:34:09 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn   interview - interview in Soundpiecies

Maybeit is old news, but there is an excellent interview with JZ in a book
'Sounpieces 2- interviews with american composers' by Steve Cole (I'm not
sure of the name, i can't find my copy - but the interview and the book have
been discussed here some time ago, so soembody will post some info)
BTW - Zorn has often stated that hedoes not like interviews. I do think it
is not because he thinks that 'music speaks for itself' or something like
that (if one likes both books and music, why not to read about music?) but
rather because of the sorry questions people ask. Somebody asked (in a short
polish interview, availble on the Atrur Nowak's EMD site http://www.emd.pl/
emd/pl4 /index.htm ) 'why do you write long tunes for masada, while the the
naked city songs were short?'. It is really a sad thing to talk on such a
level (JZ went quite mad - BTW, the guy spelled 'kristallnacht' as 'Cristal
Nut'...). I remember when Crimson came to poland in 1995, there was a short
interview with Bill Bruford on TV. And when the nice lady (who didn' know
anything about music) asked 'So what is the difference between '80s and the
'90s band?' BB looked like if he thought 'well, here's the proof that god
exists. that can't be nothing else then a punishment for my sins' and
replied quite shortly (the nice lady was very happy). Talking to such people
must be a horror. In longer statements or talks, JZ opinions are interesting
and brilliant. He does not seem to be unhappy to talk about music.
Sorry for being that long,
Marcin
"Oh Nick, I had the strangest dream!
I thought -  how could I know what I was never taught?"
Stravinsky/Auden "The Rake's Progress"


> well. i think that a list of i don't know how many might have something
valid
> to ask the man. i'm not trying to detract from the fantastic compositions,
> but there must be some fellow composers who are curious about the way
Zorn's
> muses are translated to musical terms.
> Looking at the statements about music he's made over the years, his ideas
on
> the Theatre of Musical Optics and the liner notes to Spillane, I have to
> admit that I'm rather curious as what he's concieving of lately.
> Of course, maybe if he wants people to know, he'll tell them himself.
>  It seemed like he had plenty to say in the Jazz Times interview. The
> introduction just made me cringe.
> from,
> matt



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:15:04 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)

Scott wrote:
>
>I don't know that much about the history or theory of the avant-garde,
>though I've been trying to find time to read Peter Burger's THEORY OF THE
>AVANT-GARDE back-to-back with Hal Foster's RETURN OF THE REAL for
>background
>on these problems.  It seems like the "tradition" of the avant-garde is to
>overthrow its antecedents, its predecessors, to detach itself from them and
>declare either its own independence or its own currency (that is, "here I
>am, the end result of ______ years of innovation and progression"); whereas
>other traditions, at least in the West, are---in the most generous sense of
>the word---conservative: they seek to preserve "the best that has been
>thought and said".


This is a pretty good take as well as a couple good references, since both
Berger and Foster focus a lot on institutions of art, and in Foster's case,
on readings of art that attribute to the works narratives about these very
institutions.  In jazz, the old demand for playing "in the tradition" or
playing "standards" is in many ways a much more oppressive tradition, one
that still thinks itself capable of figuring what "jazz" or what "music" is.
  On the other hand, the avant-garde was no less institutionalized in music,
on the level of aesthetic value if not "commodity aesthetics" (pop, rock,
etc.)  Your account of the conservative above is one located in the
"evaluative" register--questions of value, judgment, good art/music, bad
art/music etc.  Often very formalistic in approach.  Foster's readings
suggest that art does something quite different--that art is in a kind of
discursive modality, commenting on society/culture as well as itself and its
own "traditions."  So when we think about art we look at what it "does"
rather than how "good" it is.  I think the same readings apply to music as
well, and this is probably why Zorn gets tired of interviews with
journalists.  There's so little that gets accounted for or the matter in
which questions are posed severely limits the discursive situation, where a
person like Zorn won't be able to answer the question because it can only be
answered on the interviewer's terms.  If I were Zorn, I'd give interviews
but if the questions were not able to maintain the pace, I'd move the
discussion into other areas and simply become monological.  Listening and
recording information is the best that many interviewers can do.  As
Nietzche once wrote, in paraphrase, "if you cannot hear me it's probably
because you don't have the ears to hear."  What an apt metaphor for a music
list.  Foster wrote in that book that, since the sixties, theory has really
become the metonoymic substitute for the avant-garde among artists.  I'd say
the same holds for music as well.  There is no real avant-garde in music
anymore; there's only sound, pastiche, parody...or repetition.

I think if we want to read a good interview with Zorn, we'll need someone
like Pierre Bourdieu to do it.  In lieu of that, there's always the Arcana
book, a kind of "manifesto?" for musicians (or perhaps a "users manual?" for
listeners).
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:57:14 +0100
From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Odp: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)

> I think if we want to read a good interview with Zorn, we'll need someone
> like Pierre Bourdieu to do it.  In lieu of that, there's always the Arcana
> book, a kind of "manifesto?" for musicians (or perhaps a "users manual?"
for
> listeners).
What is that book? Where can I get it?



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:43:59 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)

At 09:15 AM 3/14/00 GMT, Bill Ashline wrote:
>
>this is probably why Zorn gets tired of interviews with
>journalists.  There's so little that gets accounted for or the matter in
>which questions are posed severely limits the discursive situation, where a
>person like Zorn won't be able to answer the question because it can only be
>answered on the interviewer's terms.

I felt this pretty strongly in the JT interview, where it seemed like the
only questions the interviewer asked were very leading about the music
business, and not about the music.  He even tried to get Zorn to diss
Wynton (kind of like the TV talk/news shows put opposing viewpoints in the
hopes they'll go at each other -- fortunately Zorn didn't bite).  I thought
the interview was pretty disappointing.

>Foster wrote in that book that, since the sixties, theory has really
>become the metonoymic substitute for the avant-garde among artists.  I'd say
>the same holds for music as well.  There is no real avant-garde in music
>anymore; there's only sound, pastiche, parody...or repetition.

I wonder why there's no avant garde anymore too.  I'm starting to think you
need a more insular community, so that when you rebel, there's a concrete
other to rebel against.  The movements that I think of as avant garde,
which would include the surrealists and perhaps the French literati in the
1960s, all took place in a fairly closed community (Paris).  Now, with the
dissolution of geographic communities because of the internet, and the
ready availability of almost any kind of music you want, it's difficult to
say that you're part of or reacting to a specific kind of musical
institution.  20-30 years ago, all of us who cared about Zorn and his
position in the avant garde would have lived in Manhattan.  Now, the
rebellion is against commercialism in general (i.e., economic, viz the
interview) rather than what we might consider a specifically musical, or
artistic, institution.

- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 11:48:51 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Odp: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)

Amazon is selling copies at $20 each.  The link is below:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188712327X/qid=953033936/sr=1-1/002-2092371-9494025

>From: "Marcin Gokieli" <[e-mail]>

>What is that book? Where can I get it?
>
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 12:29:32 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)

>Caleb wrote:
>
>I felt this pretty strongly in the JT interview, where it seemed like the
>only questions the interviewer asked were very leading about the music
>business, and not about the music

I think this suggests very well the bankruptcy of the medium of the
interview, particularly in journalism.  There aren't many who can handle the
task.  John Corbett comes to mind as one who probably can.

>
>I wonder why there's no avant garde anymore too.  I'm starting to think you
>need a more insular community, so that when you rebel, there's a concrete
>other to rebel against.

I think it's probably because the tropes of rebellion have been so
overworked in the past century that they have become conservative.  It's
also because the insularity of the artworld found in places like Paris in
the early part of the last century have come into question.  We discovered
with Duchamp and others that avant-gardes have the capacity to be
capitalized and normative.  As you state below, in our time the concrete
foci of rebellion are commercialism and capital process, social injustice,
and inequality, not "aesthetic" difference (the aesthetic equated here with
art/sensibility not "sensation" or "ethology").  In this sense, the
recuperation of the avant-garde in music (our interests) stands as a kind of
critical refusal of the cooptation by capital/commercialism--though on the
aesthetic level, the avant-gardes have already complied with capital process
on the level of "high art" or the norms of a liberal education.


>The movements that I think of as avant garde,
>which would include the surrealists and perhaps the French literati in the
>1960s, all took place in a fairly closed community (Paris).  Now, with the
>dissolution of geographic communities because of the internet, and the
>ready availability of almost any kind of music you want, it's difficult to
>say that you're part of or reacting to a specific kind of musical
>institution.  20-30 years ago, all of us who cared about Zorn and his
>position in the avant garde would have lived in Manhattan.

Russell Jacoby has an interesting book out in this regard called "The Last
Intellectuals" (it's a bit old now).  He, however, would attribute this
decline in community not to the technology of the internet etc. but to real
infrustructural changes that took place in the 50s and 60s in New York,
including suburbanization.  One sees clearly with the urban planning of
Robert Morris, a willful intent to make living in Manhattan as difficult as
possible for those without resources (intellectuals prominent among them)
through the renovation of the urban neighborhoods and the construction of
highways that prevented buses from being able to transport office workers to
their suburban homes (narrow overpasses).  This led the public intellectuals
of the cities to flock to university campuses and was the deathknell of a
particular cultural way of life.  The status of journalism and the audience
for intellectual work were the next to decline.

>Now, the
>rebellion is against commercialism in general (i.e., economic, viz the
>interview) rather than what we might consider a specifically musical, or
>artistic, institution.


Yes, this is an important point.  While the critique of the institution
still goes on, there's enough to be worried about just in the question of
artistic expression and autonomy to keep institutional critiques on the
sideline.  What's happening now in the so-called avant-garde scenes does not
have the flavor and urgency it once did.  And with descriptors like the word
"out" getting bandied about in a rather common way, avantism starts to sound
fairly entrenched, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, given the state of
popular common sense that you alluded to above regarding the JT interview.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:55:38 +0100
From: Marcel Cobussen <[e-mail]>
Subject: bacharach and gainsbourg

Hi Zorn-fans

I'm a Dutch PhD student writing a dissertation on deconstruction (the
thinking of Jacques Derrida) and music. One part will be on Zorn's
project with the music of Burt Bacharach and Serge Gainsbourg and I need

your help (I hope I can make a small contribution on writing serieously
about Zorn. In a few months I'll have my own website which will contain
an essay I wrote about Zorn, Derrida and Morricone. I would opt for
Derrida interviewing Zorn instead of Bourdieu!).
I'm interested in everything that is written about these projects: every

review, essay, commentary, interview, etc. in music magazines,
newspapers, internet sites, etc.
Who can help me?
I know you had some discussions on this topic already. Maybe somebody
can tell me where I can find these old e-mails you've sent to each
other.
- --
Marcel Cobussen
Erasmus University Rotterdam
FHKW
Postbus 1738
3000 DR Rotterdam

tel. [phone] (work)
tel. [phone] (private)
fax. [phone]



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #889
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