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2000-03-12
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #888
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, March 13 2000 Volume 02 : Number 888
In this issue:
-
Masada/DD charts
Re: Masada/DD charts
Re: Masada/DD charts
Breuker (was Re: Braxton Recs)
Tonic via the net ?
Re: Tonic via the net ?
re : zorn interview sans "postmodern bad boy"
otomo cd trade: pilgrimage/microcosmos
E#
re: a zorn interview...
music collectors
Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
death ambient
RE: Recent Goo
Re: clapping after solos
Re: clapping after solos
Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 16:46:07 -0600
From: neongreen7 <neongreen7@prodigy.net>
Subject: Masada/DD charts
does anyone know where i can find charts for some of the Masada material.
i'm really struggling to try to understand the forms of the tunes(if they
have forms). also, what about dave douglas original material? form charts?
i'm a drummer and i'm really trying to concentrate on the form and time,
rather than all the technical stuff that joey is doing.
thanks,
craig
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 19:15:37 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: Masada/DD charts
On Sun, Mar 12, 2000 at 04:46:07PM -0600, neongreen7 wrote:
> does anyone know where i can find charts for some of the Masada material.
> i'm really struggling to try to understand the forms of the tunes(if they
> have forms). also, what about dave douglas original material? form charts?
> i'm a drummer and i'm really trying to concentrate on the form and time,
> rather than all the technical stuff that joey is doing.
The Zorn issue of Sonora includes, along with other good stuff, the
chart for "Paran". But it doesn't say a whole lot, structurally.
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Jerusaklyn http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:58:02 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Masada/DD charts
> does anyone know where i can find charts for some of the Masada material.
> i'm really struggling to try to understand the forms of the tunes(if they
> have forms). also, what about dave douglas original material? form
charts?
> i'm a drummer and i'm really trying to concentrate on the form and time,
> rather than all the technical stuff that joey is doing.
The Masada stuff is mostly head-solos-head. Once you've heard the head a
majority of the tunes have solos happening on the same chords. A really
simple example is Abidan (from Masada 3 and Bar Kokhba). The main melody
only goes for 16 bars and then those chords are repeated throughout.
Then there are those that have a more complex head and soloing on a vamp
(can't think of any off the top of my head now though).
And also those really fast ones where the solos tend to be group
improvisations rather than based on any particular set of chords.
And strangely enough, these 3 descriptions are pretty reminiscent of the
way Ornette Coleman's tunes work.
Dave Douglas stuff can be far stranger as can be seen in two scores at his
website (www.davedouglas.com I believe). But usually the structures are
similar to those mentioned above.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:49:19 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@idt.net>
Subject: Breuker (was Re: Braxton Recs)
Nervenet@aol.com wrote:
> On another note, can anyone recommend releases from Willem Breuker's
> catalog as a leader? I just picked up "Heimel" and enjoy it, but still don't
> know his M.O. and wonder what else is good in his world.
I'm not overly fond of "Heibel" (aside from the packaging, of course),
but I'd strongly recommend the following (all of which are at least
somewhat available on disc):
The European Scene (BASF, 1975)
Summer Music (Marge, 1978)
Willem Breuker Collective (About Time, 1983)
Metropolis (BVHaast, 1987)
Parade (BVHaast, 1990)
...among others.
> Is it always larger
> ensembles like this?
With the Kollektif, it is. There are a few odd duets around with Han
Bennink and Leo Cuypers. "Music for His Films (Johann van der Keuken)",
a fine collection of soundtrack work from 1967-75, includes smaller
group pieces with Bennink, John Tchicai and others. Breuker also appears
as sideman to good effect on recordings with groups led by Leo Cuypers,
Henk de Jonge and others.
> Do they all sound scored like this (which is fine, I'm
> just curious)? Any help is appreciated.
imo, his work of the last ten or twelve years has grown a bit ponderous
as it's veered further and further from a jazz base and more into his
apparent goal of being the Kurt Weill of Holland. "Sensemaya" was the
last WBK disc I found of some value. That being said, they are still
capable of much butt-kicking in live performance. At Tonic last fall
they followed a lackluster first set with an awesome second. They're
playing there again on the 22nd.
Brian Olewnick
NP: DNA, DNA (Avant)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:32:56 -0500
From: phil zampino <zampino@squidco.com>
Subject: Tonic via the net ?
Does anyone know if Tonic has a website or an email list for their
schedule? Any other sources for nyc performance schedules online?
thanks!
philz
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 21:50:29 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: Tonic via the net ?
phil zampino wrote:
>
> Does anyone know if Tonic has a website or an email list for their
> schedule? Any other sources for nyc performance schedules online?
>
> thanks!
> philz
>
> -
The Tonic website is at http://www.tonic107.com
- --Mike
- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Broadcaster, Father, Farmer, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Sumo Nut, Bald Guy
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 22:36:05 EST
From: Orangejazz@aol.com
Subject: re : zorn interview sans "postmodern bad boy"
well. i think that a list of i don't know how many might have something valid
to ask the man. i'm not trying to detract from the fantastic compositions,
but there must be some fellow composers who are curious about the way Zorn's
muses are translated to musical terms.
Looking at the statements about music he's made over the years, his ideas on
the Theatre of Musical Optics and the liner notes to Spillane, I have to
admit that I'm rather curious as what he's concieving of lately.
Of course, maybe if he wants people to know, he'll tell them himself.
It seemed like he had plenty to say in the Jazz Times interview. The
introduction just made me cringe.
from,
matt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 01:56:28 EST
From: APoesia794@aol.com
Subject: otomo cd trade: pilgrimage/microcosmos
i have a copy of otomo yoshihide album "microcosmos" that i want to trade.
anyone interested in trading for another cd please email me privately.
thanks. jason
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 02:44:17 EST
From: XRedbirdxx@aol.com
Subject: E#
tonight i witnessed elliot sharp and orchestra carbon perform radiolaria at
the KF.
as this was basically my introductory experience to his work, could someone
be so kind as to respond with a crash-course in his other projects/output? i
ask in this in the same context as someone who only knew...say,
absinthe..would still have quite a long way to go to become informed about
zorn's megadiversified aesthetic. and although e# does seem slightly
enigmatic, i tend to presume that this query is far easier to answer than
that of the aforementioned would-be jz neophyte.
thanks in advance.
curious,
joseph
p.s. - and isn't radiolaria connected to the quasi-recent discussion of sine
waves and "difference tones"?
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:10:29 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: re: a zorn interview...
i think orangejazz's idea is an interesting one. if, as ian rightly points out,
he doesn't want to be "interviewed" by us, he can say so, or just ignore the
request. but he may well take the opportunity to, in a passive way, get the word
out.
i'd be interested to hear if he feels that the situation at the knit has
improved at all, if he has plans to develop another working band (like naked
city and masada), what are the advantages of tzadik being run as a nonprofit,
and how tower "avant garde" section has progressed or if any stores have really
done it.
since from what i understand, he's not lurking, but there are people who work
with him regularly who are on the list (even if they don't post). why not ask?
kg
np: bud powell: the complete blue note and roost recordings
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 10:37:33 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: music collectors
thinking back on our conversations about excessive collections (i'm out to by
another cd rack today) and times when collectors have been able to keep music
alive ... i've got an associated press article about a maryland guy who's been
collecting country records and taping concerts for decades. some of his
recordings are starting to be released and is attracting other industry
attention. email me if you want a copy with which to defend your massive
collection against complaining cohabitors.
kg
sp: bud powell: the complete blue note and roost recordings
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:15:01 -0500
From: Matthew Moffett <fkmoffet@erols.com>
Subject: Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
Scott Handley wrote:
> Regarding Sharrock's and/or Braxton's comments about Zorn's alto playing: I
> think there's the suspicion among craftsmen, virtuosos, that "restructural"
> creativity is a cop-out; that is, that breaking new ground
> by---_apparently_---TOTALLY BREAKING with tradition, is a simple,
> sensational way to define oneself and one's artistry: "you can't fire me, I
> quit"----making up a new game (figuratively or literally).
I think this occurs in any art form/style. Painters like Pollack, Duchamp, etc
were heavily criticized in their time for not being able to paint realistically
when many of them started out that way. I'm experiencing it in my fiction
classes whenever I bring in experimental work through comments like, "Okay,
this is fun, but can you write a story." A lot of this seems to only happen in
the U.S. For some reason they don't think artists should be able to work in
both an experimental and traditional vein. Part of it may be the idea of the
crazy visionary; if your brain works in such a way to create more cutting edge
work, there certainly can't be enough room in your brain to create anything
traditional in a solid and impressive manner. What they don't realize is that
artists play with what interest them the most, and artists always come from
their own traditions (meaning the avant garde has as much its own sense of
tradition as does work with a more mass appeal).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:30:32 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: death ambient
saw ikue and kato last night at tonic with ted reichmann in the frith chair. i
like ted, but was unsure how he'd fit in. my fears, however, were unfounded.
it's hard to say it was better because, well, it is fred frith we're talking
about, but d.a. is a very interesting guitarless band. reichmann did a lot of
textured stuff on keyb, piano and accordian, and at times did some nice unison
playing with kato (who has been really solid the last coupla times i've seen
him, better imho than his dropping-chains-on-the-bass kinda stuff he was doing
more often when i'd see him).
pickd up the new cd, too, but haven't listened to it yet. working my way through
my new bud powell box set first.
also pickd up a jon rose disc i haven't played yet. got me thinking, i haven't
heard much talk of him round these cyberparts. i've been really digging to him
lately. anyone else?
kg
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 13:33:07 -0300
From: Linares Hugo <hulinare@bemberg.com.ar>
Subject: RE: Recent Goo
> > Wayne Horvitz & Zony Mash - Upper Egypt(Knitting Factory): Another Zony
> > Mash record, and I feel like this band keeps getting incrementally
> better
>
> I was a little bit frustrated by how short the version of Upper Egypt is.
> I
> have seen the band stretching it more for than 10mn and here, it is almost
>
> just the theme and no improvisation (kind of a radio-friendly version...).
>
> Upper Egypt is a not a piece for a single.
>
> Patrice.
>
>
[Linares Hugo]
By the way, which Sanders' recording was Upper Egypt originally
included? Label?
Thanks in advance.
Hugo
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 11:08:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Whit Schonbein <whit@twinearth.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: clapping after solos
at a performance of sex mob last night in st. louis, missouri, bandleader
stephen bernstein implored the audience to clap after solos. later, he
told everyone to be quiet after one solo because "this is the good part".
so i guess he wanted the audience to clap after some solos, and withhold
clapping after others. i just withheld from clapping.
good show, btw. the interplay between tony sherr (b), kenny wollesen (d)
and brigan krauss (sax) was impressive and sticks in my mind as a high
point(s).
whit
- ------------------------------------------
William W. Schonbein
Philosophy-Neuroscience-Psychology Program
Department of Philosophy
Washington University
St. Louis, MO, USA 63130-4899
http://artsci.wustl.edu/~wwschonb/
whit@twinearth.wustl.edu
- ------------------------------------------
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 18:47:09 +0100 (CET)
From: Yves Dewulf <yves@inwpent1.rug.ac.be>
Subject: Re: clapping after solos
> at a performance of sex mob last night in st. louis, missouri, bandleader
> stephen bernstein implored the audience to clap after solos. later, he
> told everyone to be quiet after one solo because "this is the good part".
> so i guess he wanted the audience to clap after some solos, and withhold
> clapping after others. i just withheld from clapping.
At a sex mob show in Seattle I witnessed in september, a little child in the
audience was making a horrible noise, banging his toys and screaming like hell
(this was an afternoon show at a festival). Bernstein urged the kid to go on an
make even more noise, "take his solo" and after that wanted the audience to give
him a big round of applause!
At the same gig he also told that John Lurie phoned him to tell that he was no
longer a member of the Lounge Lizards (apperently Lurie said he had found a
magnificent trumpet player, so Bernstein was out). Bernstein then gave the
audience the private phone number of Lurie, so everyone could complain about
this.
Marvellous show, by the way, but it ended to early because of a fire-alarm.
And speaking of encores and Lurie, I was told by a colleague of mine that Lurie
once played at a open air festival in Brussels (a long time ago) with the Lounge
Lizards and was forced by the authorities to end the concert, because there was
no authorisation to play after a certain hour. So Lurie invited the complete
audience into his dressing room (at least the part that had the luck of fitting
into the small room) and continued playing over there. Maybe some other Belgians
were over there when this happened and can confirm this story ??
Yves,
now off to see Toshinori Kondo (with the fabulous DJ Grazhoppa en Dirk
Wachtelaer)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:11:17 GMT
From: "Scott Handley" <c123018@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: zorn can play (was re: jazz!)
THE SKINNY, IN THEORY: Adherents to the mainstream "traditions" tend to find
it MORE comfortable, not less, when someone can navigate his/her way through
the "taditional" and the "experimental", as opposed to simply the
"experimental" and not the "traditional".
>Scott Handley wrote:
I
> > think there's the suspicion among craftsmen, virtuosos, that
>"restructural"
> > creativity is a cop-out...making up a new game (figuratively or
>literally).
Matthew Moffett <fkmoffet@erols.com> responded:
>I think this occurs in any art form/style. Painters like Pollack, Duchamp,
>etc
>were heavily criticized in their time for not being able to paint
>realistically
>when many of them started out that way... For some reason they don't think
>artists should be able to work in
>both an experimental and traditional vein.
The problem I'm talking about is kind of the inverse of this: a lot of
"traditional" virtuosos see experimentalism, for lack of a better word, as a
"week-end", "closet" kind of love affair. Creative adultery. What is
_un-adulterated_? THEIR tradition, of course. So it seems to be an
implicit or explicit argument that the experimentalist must AT LEAST BE
DEMONSTRABLY CAPABLE of working competently within the critic's lineage, the
mainstream, which necessarily commands the majority of participants (that's
why it's MAINstream: it's not marginal). But in Sonny Sharrock's case, he
"defended" or justified his style the way Monk might have justified his own:
"play your own way". Ad hoc aesthetics. Sonny said that he couldn't, or
didn't play any other way. His serrated-metal style _was_ the musician he
was. I think people want to know that the dominant lineage is important
enough to an artist for said artist to have taken the time to "master" it.
People like the idea that the weirdness an artist is perpetrating is the
product of that person having NOWHERE ELSE TO GO in the traditional (read:
familiar) forms. So if Peter Brotzmann wants to do his screaming thing,
great: I don't have to listen to it. But if he can't meet me where I stand,
i.e. play bop changes, then that's conclusive that he's a charlatan: he's
settles for screaming because he _couldn't_ hack it as a bop musician.
Wynton Marsalis plays "classical" music and jazz quite well: we know he
plays them well because he plays them both like classical music, with a
persistent reference to "standards"---and I mean "norms", not "tunes". But
by what standards do we judge ISO? APORIAS? "Le Marteau San Maitre"?
"Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima"?
>Part of it may be the idea of the
>crazy visionary...
At least since Plato's ION...
artists always come from
>their own traditions (meaning the avant garde has as much its own sense of
>tradition as does work with a more mass appeal).
I don't know that much about the history or theory of the avant-garde,
though I've been trying to find time to read Peter Burger's THEORY OF THE
AVANT-GARDE back-to-back with Hal Foster's RETURN OF THE REAL for background
on these problems. It seems like the "tradition" of the avant-garde is to
overthrow its antecedents, its predecessors, to detach itself from them and
declare either its own independence or its own currency (that is, "here I
am, the end result of ______ years of innovation and progression"); whereas
other traditions, at least in the West, are---in the most generous sense of
the word---conservative: they seek to preserve "the best that has been
thought and said".
- -----s
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #888
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