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Zorn List Digest       Wednesday, March 1 2000       Volume 02 : Number 871



In this issue:
-
       Re: How It Happened
       Re: how it happened
       Re: Girly Men/How the Hell
       kiss, the girls
       RE: No girls allowed
       Re: No girls allowed
       Re: Girly Men/How the Hell
       Re: No girls allowed
       Re: Girly Men/How the Smell
       john wall
       Re: Fantastic Ray Russell reissue on Moikai!!!
       Re: Girly Men/etc
       MP3 - Zorn, Naked City, Masada, Douglas...
       Re: Girly Men/etc
       Re: Girly Men/etc
       How'd it happen
       RE: No girls allowed
       Re: How It Happened (young 'uns)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 14:59:06 +0100
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How It Happened

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> about females and zorn, you know..um..i'm pretty lonely. (personal ads on
> zorn list?)
>
> from,
> matt
>


now that is a GREAT idea!!! ;-)

yours,
patRice

on my stereo 2day: the cure "bloodflowers" & fields of the nephilim
"dawnrazor"

reading at the moment: miyuki miyabe "all she was worth"

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 14:59:17 +0100
From: patRice <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: how it happened

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I've been a bit surprised here. No one other than me has a soft spot for The
> Grand Wazoo and/or Waka Jawaka?
>
> Dale.
>
don't worry, you're not alone. i also quite like waka/jawaka.

i used to adore fz and his work, but must admit that i hardly ever
listen to any of it anymore. zoot allures, sheik yerbouti & you are what
you is, maybe once every two years.

yours,
patRice

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 09:47:42 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Girly Men/How the Hell

In a message dated 3/1/00 2:26:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< I have to wonder
 if there are many gay guys listening to or making this weird shit. >>

Well yes, there is this other one at least!

Dale.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 10:32:44 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: kiss, the girls

Benito suddenly felt compelled to haul out the tired old "Great Jewish Music:
Chaim Witz" thread again as well, and figured that Someone here *must* have
Zorn's ear.

well, i heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from
another who'd suggested it to zorn. apparently his jaw dropped in horror and he
walked away. looks like erstwhile will have to put it out...

as for the question of women at shows ... i've been scared to get into this, but
i'll try. i have, of course, noticed the same y-chromosone-heavy situation, both
in the audience and (interesting that this part hasn't come up) on stage. women
i know who do go to shows have wondered to me about this as well. i have no
definitive answers either, but there are a few factors.

because we're in a minority as listeners of weird shit, difficult music,
discordant and intense and challenging and callitwhatyouwill, those of us who
are in a position to go to lots of shows would probably agree that you, at least
sometimes, end up going alone and maybe running into some of the other loners
you've come to know. women, for socialization, safety, or some other reasons,
just don't do stuff alone as much. that's one thing.

however, go see ikue mori or susie ibarra (or even a nonasian, nonpercussionist,
those are just the two that come to mind first) and do a gender count. there's a
lot more women in the audience when there's women on stage. not too mysterious.

so why aren't there more women on stage? well as someone said and someone else
challenged, i think young girls are often discouraged from the sort of play that
might lead to musical experimentation. my guess is that girls who show an
interest in music are either discouraged or encouraged to be serious about it.
as has been pointed out, the gender balance in symphonies is quite different
than in free jazz units.

i do think, however, that the chromosones have gotten more evenly distributed
both onstage and off in the last few years, in nyc anyway.

kg
np: duck baker plays the music of herbie nichols



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:56:58 -0500
From: "Jeni Dahmus" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: No girls allowed

> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of Dan Given

> However, she loves live performances of free jazz and improv, and is
> usually as interested as I am in attending.  But it has to be
> something that is visually interesting to watch -- a show with interesting
> interaction among the players, or someone who does interesting things with
> their instrument, etc.  Just good music isn't enough.
> Her explanation for this -- women have more active brains, and require
more
> than one form of stimulation.

I hesitate to bring this up, but isn't it true that men traditionally
require more visual stimulation than women?  Strip clubs, porn, etc.

Jeni


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:39:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: No girls allowed

Hm, maybe there's an Improv Wives club forming here. My wife has the same
response as Keith and Dan's wives when it comes to CD music. But when it
comes to live stuff she's so involved in the music that she's turned her
impressive photography skills to taking pictures of jazz and other
musicians. (See the John Butcher shot on EuroFreeImprov and the William
Parker and Susie Ibarra pix on Rick's Velocity pages for examples).

Ken Waxman
(who sometimes feels like JFK in Berlin. He said "he was the man who came
to the cityty with Jackie Kennedy". I'm the guy at Improv shows who comes
with fotog Susan O'Connor).


On Tue, 29 Feb 2000, s~Z wrote:

> My wife wants to know if Dan Given's wife would like to go out for coffee.
> And, sure, she'd like to double date the next time Cecil comes to town.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:42:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Girly Men/How the Hell

I don't think it's any great secret that among the folks making this
weird avant garde shit that Cecil Taylor is gay.

Ken Waxman

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 10:59:56 -0500
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: No girls allowed

At the Mike Patton w/ Ribot show last week at the Knit (incredible show,
btw), three college-age girls with tight tops, bobbed hair, and token
nose piercing were right in front of me - every other word they said was
"like".

They left after about 30 minutes, I'm surprised they stayed that long.

- --
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | http://www.metatronpress.com  | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:50:39 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Girly Men/How the Smell

I don't think it's any great secret that among the folks making this
weird avant garde shit that Cecil Taylor is gay.

Ken Waxman

Well, my wife is disappointed to learn that! And regarding the difference
between men and women, research shows that the olfactory sense is the only
sense equally developed in men and women. So, if you want your honey to
snuggle up and listen to Descension with you, try a bit of his/her favorite
cologne, or light up a bit of incense or a scented candle. I just patented a
technique for scratch and sniff CDs whcih will make me millions I tell you,
millions.

- -



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 18:23:18 +0100
From: "Stefan Verstraeten" <[e-mail]>
Subject: john wall

Hi all,

Just would like to put a certain musician in the spotlight:

I recently discovered the music of john wall. His music is based on samples
plus additional live instruments (remember bob osterag say no more
projects).
But what makes this person so special: Well, his samples consist of music by
john zorn, naked city, evan parker, iannis xenakkis, john cage, lillith,
anthony braxton, carcass, metallica, misha mengelberg, etc., you know, all
the people who are regularly discussed on this list.

The most beatiful part here is: don't expect plain collage (so in my opinion
john wall is better than otomo yoshihide), but well composed and interative
bits of music (one cd makes three years of work, and that can be heard).

Anyway, if you like david shea, bob ostertag or otomo yoshihide and if you
have the chance to buy these beautiful releases, please do so.

Best wishes

stefan verstraeten

What follows are brief descriptions, made by Vince from Manifoldrecords, the
U.S. didtributor. Europeans should buy these releases from the label (based
in the UK) of from ReR (also based in the UK)

>(Fear of gravity) John Walls first (rare) disc, the precursor to the genius
>works Alterstill and Fractuur. He has sworn no one will ever get copies of
>this again as he claims "...to be so far removed from that piece of work"
>and would rather people didnt have it to reference him by. This album
>however shows the embryonic state of Walls neo-classical collage and
>instrumental/ambient reconstructions. Satisfying, mysterious and full of
>repeated plays.
>
>(Alterstill) The first of Walls masterpiece sound collage. A groundbreaking
>piece of experimental work, ambient, classical, elegant.
>
>(Fractuur) The second of Walls masterpiece sound collage. A continuation of
>the genre-defying and multi-artist sampling collage thaumaturgy that is
>Walls singular miracle
>
>(Construction I-IV) At last, the new creation from John Wall. Made from
>materials and in a style that no other musical release ever has. And the
>sound; at first listen i am inspired to say that its better than anything
>he's ever done before, but these things require.....research? Wall's work
is
>like that, it requires many listens and then in the end just defies all
your
>'research' and becomes a good listen. The kind of listen you occasionally
>have to have, so you put your copy of Fractuur or Alterstill in for a good
>play. I know there is a part of 'Constructions I-IV' thats much more
>immediate than the others, a part that grabs you and creates interest in me
>sooner than anything on Alterstill did. Alterstill took several listens
>before its secret was revealed. Much more instrumentation here, in fact,
>theres almost a band on this disc, John Edwards on Double Bass, Mark
Sanders
>on Percussion, Andrew Sparling on Clarinet, Mark Wastell on Cello and Alex
>Dorner on Trumpet. Fantastic. Beyond my expectations. Any other desription
>will have to wait as i am still enjoying it and can't possibly do this
>justice yet
>


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 09:50:50 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fantastic Ray Russell reissue on Moikai!!!

On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:03:48 -0500  "Jesse Kudler" wrote:
>
> I haven't heard the Moikai reissue yet, but I have the reissue of "Rites and
> Rituals" on Columbia and it's pretty damn good.  I don't quite see the
> Bailey comparison (other than the overdrive and sustain), but he's maybe

There are few moments where Ray sounds like Derek on SAISORO. They are short
but, I think, amazing (considering when it was done).

Thanks for the advices!

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 13:12:22 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Girly Men/etc

Dan wrote:

<<With all the talk of women into these strange musicks, I have to wonder if
there are many gay guys listening to or making this weird shit. Don't want to
"out" anybody - anybody still alive, anyway(isn't that the proper
etiquette?), but this isn't just a testosterone thing, is it? Bet not.

Speaking for myself, I'd say no, huh-uh, not at all.  There, I've cast my
wrench.>>

Nope. I'm at least one more out here. Never found another gay man but one who
I could convince to like the music I do though except in the occasional spot.
Makes it hard to find a date to go see Cecil Taylor with, even if he's gay
too. Luis Bunuel's films make for an interesting thing though, seeing as so
many are about frustration and usually of a sexual nature. Always lots of
single males at revival screenings and I've always wondered about that....

Patrick Brown
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 19:16:37 +0100
From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: MP3 - Zorn, Naked City, Masada, Douglas...

Hi Philozorners,

since nobody said loud "NO" to MP3s, here it goes: 27 songs - 1h 27m
of live music to download.
Check this out: http://www.emd.pl/emd/pl4/mp3.htm

To make myself clear, ance again: these samples are NOT made from
commercial recordings but live shows, I'm against distribution of MP3
files as relacements of original albums. I own ALL Douglas (including
the two albums from 2000), Frisell, Masada, Naked City, plus 40 other
Zorn records - all originals. I spent a little fortune to buy these
albums, and I think that all these artists deserve more financial
support than this. These live recordings are just great, especially
for me and my friends in Poland, where Zorn was only twice. I hope
these artists will get better recognition if people here will hear,
how great artists they are.

There are few songs which I don't know, one by Dave Douglas, two by
Naked City and one by Charged. I'll appreviate if you would guess the
titles.

Regards
    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno AT emd.pl]
    www.emd.pl - Discography of Bill Frisell


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 19:01:44 GMT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Girly Men/etc

<<...I have to wonder if
>there are many gay guys listening to or making this weird shit. Don't want
>to
>"out" anybody - anybody still alive, anyway(isn't that the proper
>etiquette?), but this isn't just a testosterone thing, is it? Bet not.>>

For those who haven't read the two-part Fred Hersch interview on CD Now's
"jazz" site, it might be interesting.  He talks quite openly about the
business, being gay, out, and HIV positive.  The fact that Cecil Taylor's
gay and now out, is news to me; it makes me happy, though, for all the
solidarity-type reasons.  Bob Ostertag's personal life is irrelevant, but he
seems to deal (playfully, oddly) with queerness of all colors in some of his
music/performances.  (cf. FEAR NO LOVE)

- ----s, not nosy, but still happy


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 13:22:27 -0600
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Girly Men/etc

I don't know that Cecil Taylor is all that open about his sexuality. He was
outed several years ago by Stanley Crouch in an article, which may be the
most offensive thing he's done (that I know of). Anyway, Cecil's private
life is none of my business.

Ralph


At 07:01 PM 3/1/00 +0000, Scott Handley wrote:
>For those who haven't read the two-part Fred Hersch interview on CD Now's
>"jazz" site, it might be interesting.  He talks quite openly about the
>business, being gay, out, and HIV positive.  The fact that Cecil Taylor's
>gay and now out, is news to me; it makes me happy, though, for all the
>solidarity-type reasons.  Bob Ostertag's personal life is irrelevant, but he
>seems to deal (playfully, oddly) with queerness of all colors in some of his
>music/performances.  (cf. FEAR NO LOVE)
>
>----s, not nosy, but still happy
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>-
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 11:25:58 -0800
From: Dennis Summers <[e-mail]>
Subject: How'd it happen

I'm coming in a little late on this conversation, and I'll have to be brief.
Regarding the thread that brought me to the Avante world (because I, as many
of you, also listen to many other kinds of music, in fact I have Kristin
Hersch playing right now), it probably started in the '70s with the Yes,
Pink Floyd, Can kind of thing. But the pivital experiences for me both
happened at about the same time. I picked up Cabaret Voltair/Voice of
America and Pere Ubu/ The Modern Dance, both based on hearing tracks from a
New Musical Express cassette sampler series (which opened me up to all kinds
of music). My experience with both disks was the same. I couldn't believe
that this noise could be called music; both were disturbing, and both kept
calling me back and making me listen.

Most of my subsequent out there musical experiences have been very similar:
couldn't believe it at first, but somehow kept listening. This of course was
mid-late '70s. By the early '80s the "pop" music world was getting pretty
bad (as many of you remember), so I thought I'd check up on the jazz world.
This led me to a mistake, which was the best mistake I'd ever made. I was in
a used record store, and being bad with names picked up an Ornette Coleman
record thinking it was Coleman Hawkins. An easy mistake I'd say. Anyway it
was The Great London Concert, and I couldn't believe my ears. So I spent the
'80s giving myself the usual jazz and free jazz education. And there I was
at the beginning of the '90s thinking there is nothing left to listen to. I
read an article in the NYTimes about Zorn, and thought this sounds
interesting, checked it out, and there's been no looking back.

yours in zornocity --ds


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:08:37 -0500
From: "Jeni Dahmus" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: No girls allowed

> From: Matthew Ross Davis
>
> At the Mike Patton w/ Ribot show last week at the Knit
> (incredible show, btw)

Indeed!

> three college-age girls with tight tops, bobbed hair, and token
> nose piercing were right in front of me - every other word they said was
> "like".

Patton's audience tends to be more diverse because of Faith No More's
immense popularity and his physical attractiveness.

Jeni


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 15:38:16 -0500
From: "Nirav Soni" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: How It Happened (young 'uns)

> Well, I guess this topic is interesting enough, and I think I have a
> different story to tell. I'm 17 now.

Right on! Nice to see another yoot on the list. Well, as long as I'm de-lurking, I
may as well tell my story.

When I was in fourth grade, I had a friend who had a brother with somewhat
progressive music tastes. He introduced my friend and I to The Cure, and Front 242.
After a while, I saw the Cure as being far too foppish for me and my (then) badass
self, and pursued the "industrial" end of things for a while, like Skinny Puppy,
Neubauten, etc. This progressed further into a desire for really "dense" music of
all kinds, the busier the better. I went to a summer program at Duke University
where I met an RA who decided it was necessary for me to own a copy of the Torture
Garden/Leng T'che box. I fell in love, and that summer I picked up on a huge amount
of great music like Cul De Sac, Ruins, Merzbow, the Incapacitants, Flying Saucer
Attack and Tortoise. I was in a record store in near Duke when I fell to talking to
someone about musics and such. In the middle of the conversation, he said something
along the lines of "Wait, here." I waited, and when he came back he handed me two
cds by the Incapacitants that he "couldn't get rid of." Since then, I've developed
an affinity for nearly everything, and spending lots of time and money on music. I
made a connection at a music magazine called Ink19 (http://www.ink19.com) and began
to write for them, so that has given me better access to various musics out there.
Lately, I've been listening to whatever I can convince labels to send me, which is
predominantly "intelligent" beats, and avant-electronics. I'm saving my pennies
(literally) for all the new stuff on Erstwhile, and the In Order to Survive cds on
AumFidelity.

Could anyone describe Peter Kowald's work? He's coming to Orlando in a few days,
and I'm curious to know what to expect. I've heard him described as an "incredibly
resourceful bass player and multiphonic throat singer." The first set is solo, and
for the second, he will be improvising with local drummer Micheal Welsch. I saw
Welcsh improv with Jon Rose, so I am eagerly anticipating this show.

Cheers,
Nirav
- --
OnNow- Other Dimensions in Music w/ Matthew Shipp- Time is the Essence Beyond Time
"Don't try to make me consistent. I am learning all the time."  - R.
Buckminster Fuller



- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #871
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