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Zorn List Digest       Monday, January 31 2000       Volume 02 : Number 847



In this issue:
-
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       an ayler question and the threadgill thread
       Re: Masada at the BBC?
       Re: Taboo or Tabuli
       Atlantic Monthly Article
       Masada titles explained @ www.torah.org
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       Re: young philadelphians
       Gerard Grisey?
       Re: Young Philadelphians
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:30:03 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:14:17 -0600  "Robert A. Pleshar" wrote:
>
> The title is "Taboo & Exile" so maybe that's the point. Furhtermore, isn't
> the reissue of Torture Garden in a similar slip cover due to the
> "anti-Asian" controversy surrounding the photos. Perhaps he is just trying
> to avoid further complications.

We are fortunate that this thread is happening here, on the zorn mailing list.
You imagine it on r.m.b.? At least, that's what I was hoping, I am not so
sure anymore.

Now, according to some, by hiding the picture Zorn made an even bigger sin.
This is really a no-win situation.

Why don't people just admit that there should be censure? That would be less
hypocrit. But censure belongs to the past, right?

It is really sad when you have to defend somebody not for a despicable act,
but for showing a picture of it. Maybe the ostriches are right: what you do
not see does not exist, and life is so comfortable with eyes closed.

    Patrice (who does not even care about Zorn's fantasies but always
        feels suspicious of righteous indignation).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:41:48 -0600
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

At 11:30 AM 1/31/00 -0800, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
>On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:14:17 -0600  "Robert A. Pleshar" wrote:
>>
>> The title is "Taboo & Exile" so maybe that's the point. Furhtermore, isn't
>> the reissue of Torture Garden in a similar slip cover due to the
>> "anti-Asian" controversy surrounding the photos. Perhaps he is just trying
>> to avoid further complications.
>
>We are fortunate that this thread is happening here, on the zorn mailing
list.
>You imagine it on r.m.b.? At least, that's what I was hoping, I am not so
>sure anymore.
>
>Now, according to some, by hiding the picture Zorn made an even bigger sin.
>This is really a no-win situation.

I knew I shouldn't have said anything without seeing the disc, but I just
can' t keep my big mouth shut sometimes. I was not trying to say anything
like Patrice's statement above.
I was merely guessing as to possible motivations for the design, which I am
only going by descriptions of, so I'm out in left field here. I have no
problems with Zorn displaying art right out front (most discs) or only
inside (that re-issue of Torutre Garden). I was just speculating that he is
a lttle more cautious now. Maybe not. I really should see this disc instead
of guessing. I bet if and when I see it, i'll probably say "another
mountain out of a molehill."

>
>Why don't people just admit that there should be censure? That would be less
>hypocrit. But censure belongs to the past, right?

I don't think I was advocating censure anywhere.

>
>It is really sad when you have to defend somebody not for a despicable act,
>but for showing a picture of it.

I agree.
>
>    Patrice (who does not even care about Zorn's fantasies but always
>        feels suspicious of righteous indignation).

Rob


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 11:47:43 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:41:48 -0600  "Robert A. Pleshar" wrote:
>
> >Now, according to some, by hiding the picture Zorn made an even bigger sin.
> >This is really a no-win situation.
>
> I knew I shouldn't have said anything without seeing the disc, but I just
> can' t keep my big mouth shut sometimes. I was not trying to say anything
> like Patrice's statement above.

Sorry Robert, although I followed up on your message  my answer did not
apply to your comments at all.

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:57:31 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: an ayler question and the threadgill thread

good accounts of threadgill's recorded output have preceded. i'll elaborate a
little before tossing in my faves. i'll say, as i have before here, that thread
is hands down my fave composer and one of my top fave horn players. a logical
and thoughtful extension to ayler's work, although somehow that parallel seems
never to be drawn. the bleeding horn, the march, the blues. i love them both.

a simplified cv of thread, in somewhat chronological order, goes air, new air,
sextett, very very circus, make a move. new air hasn't earned mention in the
discussion yet. interesting, but understandable, not the strongest stuff.

air lore, air time and air mail are the faves for the original thread/steve
mccall/fred hopkins trio (of which only henry remains with us). i believe the
"new" was added after steve mccall died. there were two recordings that i know
of: air show no. 1 and live at montreaux. both are worth getting. as has been
said by others, nothing by him will disappoint. air show has strong vocals on a
coupla tracks by then girlfriend now superstar cassandra wilson.

concurrent to the new air releases, thread started the sextett. just the facts
and pass the bucket (along with two other titles) has just been reissued and is
maybe the sextetts best. easily slip into another world and rag bush are also
great, but i think they're both out of print.

very very circus was never quite documented to my liking. it was a deep and
murky band, with horns barely surfacing through the density of tubas and
electric guitars. great compositions. the first, spirit of nuff nuff, suffers a
little from production quality. live at koncepts, which may be out of print, has
better sound but lesser material.

too much sugar for a dime is no doubt one of his best discs, but it never
satisfied me purely as a vvc recording because of laswell's heavy hand in the
production. its still great, and laswell only enhances it, but he certainly
changes the feel of what was a great live band. carry the day is really good,
makin' a move less so but still.

the band make a move has one record, where's your cup. as has been said, nice to
hear a single unit throughout the disc.

song from out of my trees on black saint is really stupendous. another of his
finest.

hmmm... i thought that was going to be short. ah well. now back to ayler: can
anyone school me a little about his late bagpipe releases, how available they
are and how successful they are in execution? thanks.

nyers: joe mcphee rocked the brecht forum sat night, and will be at the pink
pony on ludlow in a duet tues at 10 for just 5 bucks. two bands preceding him as
well.

np: zohar keter



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:05:16 -0600
From: Moudry <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada at the BBC?

At 10:44 31-01-00 +0100, Otto Sieffried wrote:
>Hi,
>
>anybody know WHEN the London Masada concert will be broadcast?
>
>
>Best,
>
>Siegfried

Any if anyon happens to record it, I'd be happy to talk about trades....

Saturnally,
Joe Moudry
Technical Training Specialist & SOE WebMaster
Office of Academic Computing & Technology
School of Education
The University of Alabama @ Birmingham

E-Mail: [e-mail]
MaBell: [phone]
Fax: [phone]
Snail Mail:
901 13th Street South
149 EB
Birmingham AL 35205 USA

Master of Saturn Web (Sun Ra, the Arkestra, & Free Jazz):
<http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~moudry>

Producer/Host of Classic Jazz (Armstrong -> Ayler ->)on Alabama Public Radio:
WUAL 91.5FM Tuscaloosa/Birmingham
WQPR 88.7FM Muscle Shoals/NW Alabama
WAPR 88.3FM Selma/Montgomery/Southern Alabama

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:37:33 -0700
From: fishes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo or Tabuli

on 1/31/00 12:23 PM, Zorn List Digest at
[e-mail] wrote:

> I would much rather be shocked and disturbed by his music than by =
> his presentation or ruminations about child pornography.

did anyone find ANYTHING taboo or exile about the music? hans bellmer
certainly would have been a better candidate for a taboo and exile
cover...but he has been used rather extensively by zorn already. i wish some
one had a picture of hans carrying one of his "dolls" and his camera
equipment, while being chased by a mob of disturbed townspeople...hey how
come there is no hollywood jim carey vehicle defileing the memory of
bellmer! arrgh don't even think it...

<e>>>
shameful plugs-
CortexBomb-
<!> http://www.mockbrwn.com/bands/cortex
<!> http://www.mp3.com/cortexbomb



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:14:01 -0800
From: "s~Z" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Atlantic Monthly Article

Did y'all catch mention of the beloved, et al., in the Feb2000 issue of the
Atlantic Monthly?

'Jazz--Religious and Circus' by Francis Davis

s~Z


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:32:45 +0100
From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada titles explained @ www.torah.org

Hi Philozorners!

many people wanted to "unscramble" Masada titles, and I just found
great source of knowledge - www.torah.org - where you can find many
words (Masada titles) either translated/explained or at least in a
context, which may be a good start for further investigations. So far
I found few titles (I was looking for the titles from Masada 1 to 5).
Here it goes:

- ----- 1.6 Kanah

http://www.torah.org/learning/hamaayan/5759/terumah.html
"Kanah"/"its shaft" shares a root with the word which means "to
acquire." When one gives charity, he actually acquires wealth for
himself, for Hashem will repay him.
"Ve'kanah, gevi'ehah"/"its shaft, its cups" - The letters of these
words can be reordered to spell "kenei be'yegi'ah"/"acquire through
toil." This alludes to the fact that the highest form of charity is to
give the poor person a job or to establish him in business so that he
can earn a living through the toil of his hands.

http://www.torah.org/learning/maharal/p1m18part1.html
There is an intellectual component, where man acquires wisdom and
Torah, as Chazal teach us: A "zaken" (literally an elder, but
referring to any wise person) is one who as acquired ("kanah") wisdom
(Kidushin 32b).

- ----- 3.5 Netivot

http://www.torah.org/learning/maharal/p2m2part3.html
The Maharsl is referring to sections in Netivot Olam, Netiv Halshon,
chapter 6, and in Netiv Koach Hayetzer, chapter 1

- ----- 3.10 Tannaim

http://www.torah.org/learning/haftorah/vayeishev.html
Hashem said that the sale of Yoseif, unlike all other sins, could
never be overlooked and that one day the greatest Tannaim (Mishnaic
authors) would suffer inhuman torture and be taken from us in
atonement for this sin.

http://www.torah.org/learning/maharal/p1m15part1.html
As with the previous pairs of Tannaim, Shammai (the second Tanna)
teaches a lesson from the perspective of "yirah," fear, instructing
one to take care against violating what is required.

http://www.torah.org/learning/maharal/p2m15part1.html
Each of the tanaim chose to teach three things to ensure that, as
words of discipline (mussar) they would remain etched on one's heart
and in one's mind.

- ----- 4.1 Midbar

http://www.torah.org/learning/parsha-insights/5758/yisro.html
In this week's parsha of Yisro, Moshe's father in law, Yisro, comes
out to the midbar (wilderness) to join Bnei Yisroel (the children of
Israel).

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5758/matosmasei.html
As mentioned before, the word "midbar" can mean either "desert" or
"speech" (same letters, different vowels) The theme of the book
"Bamidbar" has been to prepare the Jewish people for life in Eretz
Yisroel, which means learning to live above nature.

- ----- 5.1 Paran

http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5757/shlach.html
And Moshe sent them out from the desert of Paran, according to the
word of G-d; all of them were men, they were heads of the children of
Israel.

http://www.torah.org/learning/parsha-insights/5757/devarim.html
"Ayleh hadevorim asher deebare Moshe..." - these are the words that
Moshe spoke - "bein Paran uvein Tofel v'Lavan vaChatzairos v'Dee
Zahav" - between Paran and between Tofel and Lavan and Chatzairos and
Dee Zahav.

- ----- 5.3 Yoreh

http://www.torah.org/learning/lifecycles/milah/shalomz.html
The Rema in the Shulchan Aruch, the Code of Jewish Law, (Yoreh De'ah
265:12) writes: It is customary to make a festive meal on the Shabbos
eve after the birth of a baby boy.

http://www.torah.org/learning/drasha/5757/miketz.html
To each young man the sage had a simple reply. "Look at the Pischei
Tshuva in Yoreh Deah," he nodded at one.

- ----- 5.6 Neshamah

http://www.torah.org/learning/lifeline/5758/purim.html
The Gaon, Rabbi Eliyahu Kramer, explains that there are four elements
to a person in Jewish thought: the basic life-force (Nefesh), spirit
(Ruach), soul (Neshamah), and the body.

- ----- 5.9 Hafla'ah

http://www.torah.org/learning/yomtov/pesach/vol4no02.html
The Rambam (Maimonides) termed the section of his Mishneh Torah
dealing with those laws concerning utterances (vows, promises, oaths,
etc.) Sefer HaFla'ah - The Book of Amazement. The word "Peleh"
("Wonder" or "marvel," to which HaFla'ah is related) is used in other
contexts to refer to speech.

I _love_ this website!

Sylvain Dal setup a nice page at www.chez.com/barkokhba with the
"Unofficial Cross-Sectionnal Discography", so SYLVIAN, do you want to
maintain this list and search through www.torah.org for next titles? I
could prepare a page myslelf, but I have enough work with my polish
avant-jazz-website at http://www.emd.pl/emd/pl4/index.htm  ;-)

Regards
    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno AT emd.pl]
    www.emd.pl - Discography of Bill Frisell



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:21:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

To further muddy the waters:

What if Zorn was in favor of any of the things Rob says he isn't.
Wopuld it affect our appreciation (or not) for his music? Do we
have the right to tell an artist what he can or can not believe?

Ezra Pound was a Fascist
L.F. Celine a Nazi
Hemming was at very least a misogynist
William Burroughs may have killed his wife; Norman Mailer tried to
O. Henry was an embezzler
Jean Genet was a thief and terrorist apologist
T.S. Elliot was an anti-Semite
F.Scott Fitzgerald and John O'Hara were snobs
Von Karajan was probably a Nazi
Ornette Coleman has made some anti-gay statements
Charles Gayle is anti-abortion

Others artists may have been rapists, murders, drunks, had very
bad manners or any done a variety of other things of which we may not
personally aprove.

But can we allow this to affect our appreciation (or not) of their art?

Seems to me we must divorce the singer from the song and make our
decisions on his or her art on that art alone.

Ken Waxman
(who is completely anti-censorship)


On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Robert A. Pleshar wrote:

> I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion since I haven't seen the
> disc in question, but there is a relevant article in today's Salon at:
>
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/01/31/kincaid/index.htm

>
> Do you mean like the Nazi imagery on Zorn's "Krystallnacht" disc? The
> images are there, but I think his intent is quite clear on that disc,
> whereas it may be harder to read on Taboo & Exile (can't say, haven't seen it)
>
> Zorn has used images to shock for many years, but I really doubt he is
> pro-torture (Leng Tche), pro-lynching (Burial ground), pro-serial killer
> (Guts of a virgin, Buried Secrets), pro-Nazi (Krystallnacht). I'll assume
> that he is also not pro-kiddie porn.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:13:54 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

On Mon, Jan 31, 2000 at 05:21:33PM -0500, Ken Waxman wrote:

> Seems to me we must divorce the singer from the song and make our
> decisions on his or her art on that art alone.

But since Zorn chooses and approves his artwork, the packaging is every
bit as much "the song" as the music is.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 23:53:23 +0100
From: fas <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: young philadelphians

> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:17:09 -0500
> From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
> Subject: Young Philadelphians
>
> I caught the second set Saturday night. The jury is in, and Jamaaladeen
> Tacuma is officially God. :-)
>
> But who was the second sax player? No one standing outside the club
> afterward seemed to have caught the name, which Mark Ribot had
> announced as something like "Bvrrp Bzzpht".
>

that must be john zorn. the first sax player is micah gaugh...
;-)

f.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 17:55:52 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gerard Grisey?

The article in Sundays NYT on this guy made his work sound, at the
least, pretty intriguing. Anyone on the list heard his "spectral" music?

Brian Olewnick

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:26:23 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Young Philadelphians

The Frith/ Zorn duo set was amazing.... just as one would expect.  I stayed
for the first set of the Young Philadelphians.  BTW--- where did they come up
with this name?  I think Jamaaladeen is the only Philadelphian, and he aint
all that young.  I thought Punk Funk Harmodelic fit them pretty well.  The
sax player that sat in with them was named Danny Zamiro, he looked all of
about 20 years old, and damn he can play!!  You would think he would be
intimitaded, stading and playing right beside Zorn, but the guy did not hold
back.  His tone was very similar to Zorns, but a couple of times he whipped
off some Brecker-ish lines that sounded pretty fresh.  I wish i had caught
the late set to see what transpired, but I guess I didnt feel like paying
another $14... there was also a HUGE line of people outside waiting to get
in.  Tonic must be raking in the bucks now.  (And good for them.)  Anyone
else remember when they first opened and you could pay $7 and stay all night?

- -Jody

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:27:14 -0500
From: Brian Olewnick <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

Ken Waxman wrote:

> Ezra Pound was a Fascist
> L.F. Celine a Nazi
> Hemming was at very least a misogynist
> William Burroughs may have killed his wife; Norman Mailer tried to
> O. Henry was an embezzler
> Jean Genet was a thief and terrorist apologist
> T.S. Elliot was an anti-Semite
> F.Scott Fitzgerald and John O'Hara were snobs
> Von Karajan was probably a Nazi
> Ornette Coleman has made some anti-gay statements
> Charles Gayle is anti-abortion

Hmmm...Ken manages to leave leftist-collectivists off his list. Just
think what we few libertarian new music fans must turn a blind eye to!
;-) But I still manage to love "Song for Che".

> But can we allow this to affect our appreciation (or not) of their art?

Can one help do anything but? If you heard an unidentified piece of
music that you found to be beautiful, then later learned it was written
by a Mengele type creature, you might, perhaps, still find it beautiful,
but surely your appreciation would change to some degree.

After all the to-do here, I went out and got "Taboo & Exile" yesterday.
One point no-one has brought up is that, if my understanding is correct,
erotic depictions of pre-adolescent children are not legally forbidden
in Japan (whereas explicitly showing genitalia is). So from the context
the photgrapher was working out of, such photos are likely no big deal.
In the US, of course, the public is far more tightly wound on the
subject, as the original poster pointed out vis a vis the photos of
Sturges and Mann; which photos, incidentally, I _do_ think are intended
as erotic, despite the self-serving protestations of their creators. I
imagine Zorn's purpose is at least twofold. One, he simply finds the
photos beautiful _and_ erotic. Two, by including the Rops drawing, he
wishes to draw attention to similar representations made by artists
generally acknowledged as serious (I expect a Schiele masturbatory
self-portrait to surface on some Tzadik release eventually. I'm still
surprised he's never got around to Gericault's amazing nature morte (!!)
studies of severed limbs). Further, he may want to force the viewer to
consider the culturally relativistic aspects of differing views on the
subject between east and west.

Oh, btw, the music is ok, a little bit grab bag in nature but solid.

Brian Olewnick

NP: Boulez, Pli Selon Pli

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #847
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