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Zorn List Digest       Monday, January 31 2000       Volume 02 : Number 846



In this issue:
-
       RE: Zorn List Digest V2 #845
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       William Hooker interview, Mingus play
       Young Philadelphians
       Re: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       Masada at the BBC?
       Zorn in RealAudio
       Re: fenno'berg
       Re: Ayler recs
       Taboo & Exile Imagery
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
       Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 17:10:40 -0300
From: "Gabriel Lichtmann" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Zorn List Digest V2 #845

   I think the cover of "T&E" is perfectly understandable considered in t=
he
context of Zorn's body of work and his interest in writers such as George=
s
Bataille and Marguerite Duras, who have explored the limits between the
sacred and the profane and the different conceptions of sex and eroticism=
 in
eastern and western cultures. The cover of "Leng Tche", as many of you mi=
ght
already know, is taken from a book by Bataille (whose name in english I
ignore, having read it in spanish) that deals with the relationship betwe=
en
pain and sex; Bataille declared that picture inspired him to write the bo=
ok
after seeing the ecstatic look on the tortured woman's face, which remind=
ed
him of the face of someone having an orgasm.
  I don=B4t think he is making a comment on child porn, but on something =
more
profound as how our perceptions of sex change when we lose our innocence =
and
become prejudiced by our education. And, if I may say, I think it is exac=
tly
what he has been doing in music by subverting the rules of formal
composition with his game pieces (childhood and games are very related, I
may add) and playing with the limits between improvisiation, composed mus=
ic,
noise and melody.

                                                                        L=
A
LICHUZA

P.S: ...and I find it really interesting that you found the cover of "T&E=
"
more disturbing than the cover of "Music of Children", which I found scar=
y
and ten times more unsettling.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 16:13:52 -0700
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A2hris=20=A7undberg?= <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

I think it important when talking about the context of the photo(s), to keep in
mind that we can NEVER know what another persons thoughts are.  You will get
what you will out of it, and think that's what I see as Zorn's intent whenever
he does anything, artwork, music, living, whatever it is, he does what he does,
and if it offends you, makes you uncomfortable, that's your reaction, that's
what is suppsoed to happen.  He is not out there simply to 'shock' as someone
said.  He is out there living, just like you and I.  He points out the realities
of life, but that's just a sharp contrast to what the world wants us to think of
it.  Pointing out the bad guy in us all is what we need.   We are far form the
perfect race.  We need to accept the fact that we are the bad guy.  And after we
accept that, we need to constantly be reminded of it.  That's why people buy
into pop music, it doesn't point out their inadequacies, it points out the
'good' parts.  Zorn is in affect, giving us what we need.  If it offends you,
that's what it was supposed to do, if it doesn't phase you at all, that's what
it was supposed to do.  He isn't doing what he's doing simply for a reaction,
he's living.  But then again, we can't tell what he's thinking, and I'm just
stating what I think he's doing, living, being our doctor and giving us well
needed medicine.  Helping us see things that we might not otherwise notice.
Maybe we didn't want to notice them, but we need to know what's out there.  And
if it makes you that uncomfortable, go listen to some Brittany Spears.

<out>
║óº║
Pun Intended


__________________________________________________
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Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
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- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:18:31 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

> I think it important when talking about the context of the photo(s), to
keep in
> mind that we can NEVER know what another persons thoughts are.  You will
get
> what you will out of it, and think that's what I see as Zorn's intent
whenever
> he does anything, artwork, music, living, whatever it is, he does what he
does,
> and if it offends you, makes you uncomfortable, that's your reaction,
that's
> what is suppsoed to happen.  He is not out there simply to 'shock' as
someone
> said.

You bring up a good point, but I think maybe this is slightly simplistic. I
mean, surely an artist is going to have an intention and some people "get
it" and others don't. And if you are one that happens to not get it as it
was intended, there's nothing wrong with that, but confusing issues would
surely not be something Zorn would particularly have on his agenda.

By the same token, I was being quite simplistic when I said some of his
images are made to shock. What I meant was that they have a shock value to
them on top of the other comments Zorn is trying to put forward. The same
can be said for some of Zorn's music (Naked City, Painkiller, etc.) I have
a few friends (and sometimes their mothers) who have listened to Naked City
and been a bit shocked by the loud violent sax squealing and stuff. But
when I listen to it I am more drawn to the more "musical" parts behind it
and often don't even notice that stuff. Anyway...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 21:11:51 -0500
From: Perfect Sound Forever <[e-mail]>
Subject: William Hooker interview, Mingus play

Greetings,

In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever online magazine
<http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):

WILLIAM HOOKER INTERVIEW
Matt Silcock interrogates the master drummer
<http://www.furious.com/perfect/williamhooker.html>

MINGUS, COLTRANE, VICIOUS, BUDDHA TOGETHER
A one-act play/fantasy- need we say more?
<http://www.furious.com/perfect/mingusplay.html>

We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any
writing or ideas for upcoming issues.

See you online,
Jason

Perfect Sound Forever
online music magazine
[e-mail]
http://www.furious.com/perfect

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 22:17:09 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Young Philadelphians

I caught the second set Saturday night. The jury is in, and Jamaaladeen
Tacuma is officially God. :-)

But who was the second sax player? No one standing outside the club
afterward seemed to have caught the name, which Mark Ribot had
announced as something like "Bvrrp Bzzpht".

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 23:01:24 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery

On Sun, Jan 30, 2000 at 12:10:42AM -0500, Matthew Ross Davis wrote:
> Some interesting thoughts on Zorn's "hidden" photo. I'm curious as to
> what the differences are between the artwork in Taboo and Exile and the
> artwork on such CDs as various Naked City albums (Torture Garden,
> Heretic, Naked City, Radio), The String Quartets, Painkiller, etc. A
> great deal of this is heavilly influenced by Zorn's well known affinity
> with Japanese art and culture. I do wonder why similar questions haven't
> been raised about these other albums that have been raised by T&E.

I think it maybe that it's easier to have a binary instant reaction to
that which appears to be child porn. I found his other graphics rather
more disturbing,

What I found intriguing was the amount of work he makes one go through
get to the picture. For those who are confused: we're *not* talking
about the booklet cover. Rather, it's a hidden image, buried beneath:

1. the wrapper
2. the jewel case
3. the disc
4. the paper torus under the disc
5. the plastic holder panel thingie
6. the tray card
7. the folds of the paper of which it's on an inside surface

The question of what Zorn is saying by including it is amplified/
complicated by the question of why he obscured it so carefully and
deeply. It may simply be to avoid the probability of one accidentally
stubling across it, or it may mean something else.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:44:43 +0100
From: [e-mail] (otto)
Subject: Masada at the BBC?

Hi,

anybody know WHEN the London Masada concert will be broadcast?


Best,

Siegfried





- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:33:42 -0600
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn in RealAudio

Hi folks,

this week's Mappings includes Zorn's Elegy as well as soundscapes by
Sybille Pomorin & Tibor Szemzo.
<http://www.antennaradio.com/avant/mappings/index.htm>
- --
Herb Levy
NEW MAILING ADDRESS:  P O Box 9369  Forth Wort, TX  76147
NEW PHONE: [phone]
same old e-mail: [e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:02:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fenno'berg

- --- "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> (1)  Christian Fennesz, Jim O'Rourke, and Peter
> Rehberg "The Magic Sound of Fenno'berg" (Mego 031,
> cd)
>
> The farther I listened into this cd, the more I was
> reminded of O'Rourkes "Terminal Pharmacy" on Tzadik.

> Combination of electronic surface noise overlaid on
> sampled(?) melodic semi-classical music. It's
> difficult (for me) to determine the contributions of
> the three musicians but I have a hard time
> distinguishing it from O'Rourke's solo work.

Hmm... The thing I really love about the Fenno'berg
disc is that you actually *can* distinguish between
each musician's input. I was talking about this with
someone at work the other day: Fennesz uses those
buried melodies, O'Rourke uses ironic samples and Pita
does a lot of the aggressive sine-wave stuff.
Obviously, that's pretty over-simplified, but I really
feel like each of these three have really developed
unique and personal styles (I remember the "laptop is
a laptop is a laptop" thread a while back). Anyway, I
think this disc makes that pretty evident, and it's
something I'm excited about.

                -Tom Pratt

listening to: Morton Feldman - Piano, Violin, Viola,
Cello (hatART)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 12:36:21 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Ayler recs

I used to strive to be an Ayler completist, so taken with my favorite Ayler
that I was. Over time, however, I came to realize that much of Ayler's output
does very little for me, relative to my favorite stuff, which I still adore.

My favorite Ayler is the trio (AA, SM, GP) material, and especially when it
became a quartet with Cherry. Vibrations (w/ Cherry) and the live material
with that trio+cherry remains some of my favorite music ever recorded.

By the time he got to the period with his brother on trumpet, and with
Sampson on fiddle, the music had, to my ears, much less grandeur and depth.
And his marching-band-on-acid material especially leaves me cold.

In fact, I could safely sell off all of my (virtually complete) Ayler
collection except for the AA/SM/GP+Cherry trio/quartet stuff and live happily
ever after (but in case my tastes change again someday, I won't be parting
with it, so no offers please).

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: 31 Jan 00 10:39:25 -0800
From: Cindy Emch <[e-mail]>
Subject: Taboo & Exile Imagery

Ok
Having started all of this I want to first thank all of you for your =
thoughts.  Being new to the list I was not sure at first how forthright to =
be in my description of the image.  Thus my ambiguity and*freaked out* =
description of how I felt, instead of something more clear and analytical.

I have to explain, that my negative response to the imagery was based on a =
number of factors. I do agree that the pictures are beautiful and in that =
they are also dangerous.  Especially when placed in a sexualized/romantic =
context, which the music for romance series implies.  This context is =
further complicated by the album title being Taboo & Exile, because taboo =
does imply titillation by its forbidden nature, which puts the images in =
an erotic context.  There is always the danger, especially in american =
culture I think, with "good porn", ie high production values, high quality =
photography, etc. making more unethical sorts of photos ok, child porn =
being a good example.  =
Many people have commented that Zorn has often used photos, with his Naked =
City projects and others, that were very edgy or shocking and saw this in =
the same sort of context.  This I have to disagree with.  The Japanese S&M =
and other intense imagery that Mr. Zorn has used, for whatever given =
effect, has used ADULTS, and thus although it may not be your cup of tea, =
they are consenting adults and they may do their intense things and some =
powerful images may come out of it.

Using an image that could have involved child abuse to create it though, =
treads a very dangerous line.  For example, if it offends you, and what =
you see is child pornography, do you continue to support the work of a man =
who is exploiting abusive images?  And if you do what sort of moral =
compromise are you making?  Would you do the same if some Nazi or KKK =
images were used to shock?  This is the crux of my dilemma.

I agree that often americans are too sensitive over things like this, and =
yes, one's reaction may be based more on what the photos make you feel =
than what they are unto themselves.  I have long been frustrated by the =
perscution of photographers like Sally Mann and Jocques Sturgess for their =
persuction under the guise of child porn advocates.  However they do not =
put their subjects into a sexualized context, and thus their work can be =
viewed objectively and artisically.

Along this line, I was somewhat calmed to learn that the photos in =
question were taken by Araki, a respected Japanese photographer.  Although =
I have never found Araki to be to my general liking, it does put the photo =
into a more understandable context, and assures me of the child's safety.
However the problem that I am still having with all of this, is the =
exploitation of a child's image and thus a child.  Yes children have =
sexualities, and that is great, however it disturbs me that these =
sexualities are being used to shock and titillate adults. This line of =
reasoning is further supported by the fact that Tzadik used a slip cover =
for this album, which is unusual for them.  If the image was just artistic =
and maybe shocking why cover it up?  The covering of it does lend more =
effect to the titillation factor, making it more like peep show for the =
image instead of just a beautiful photo.

A last note, I know that there are many problems in the world and =
atrocities.  However pat and trite responses to concerns as grave as child =
abuse are really not necessary.  Yes horrible things happen, but I do not =
hold up as inspirations those who commit those crimes nor do I buy their =
albums.  I would much rather be shocked and disturbed by his music than by =
his presentation or ruminations about child pornography.

Thank you again, everyone for your thoughts, I will be mulling them over =
tonight as you have all given me a lot to think about.

Cindy M. Emch


Cindy M. Emch



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:14:17 -0600
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion since I haven't seen the
disc in question, but there is a relevant article in today's Salon at:


http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/01/31/kincaid/index.html

regarding photos of children. I thought it was a pretty good article.

I will also make a few comments on some statements below:
At 10:39 AM 1/31/00 -0800, Cindy Emch wrote:
>Using an image that could have involved child abuse to create it though,
treads a very dangerous line.  For example, if it offends you, and what you
see is child pornography, do you continue to support the work of a man who
is exploiting abusive images?  And if you do what sort of moral compromise
are you making?  Would you do the same if some Nazi or KKK images were used
to shock?  This is the crux of my dilemma.

Do you mean like the Nazi imagery on Zorn's "Krystallnacht" disc? The
images are there, but I think his intent is quite clear on that disc,
whereas it may be harder to read on Taboo & Exile (can't say, haven't seen it)

Zorn has used images to shock for many years, but I really doubt he is
pro-torture (Leng Tche), pro-lynching (Burial ground), pro-serial killer
(Guts of a virgin, Buried Secrets), pro-Nazi (Krystallnacht). I'll assume
that he is also not pro-kiddie porn.

>
>I agree that often americans are too sensitive over things like this, and
yes, one's reaction may be based more on what the photos make you feel than
what they are unto themselves.

I think this is the case close to 100% of the time.


>However the problem that I am still having with all of this, is the
exploitation of a child's image and thus a child.  Yes children have
sexualities, and that is great, however it disturbs me that these
sexualities are being used to shock and titillate adults. This line of
reasoning is further supported by the fact that Tzadik used a slip cover
for this album, which is unusual for them.  If the image was just artistic
and maybe shocking why cover it up?  The covering of it does lend more
effect to the titillation factor, making it more like peep show for the
image instead of just a beautiful photo.

The title is "Taboo & Exile" so maybe that's the point. Furhtermore, isn't
the reissue of Torture Garden in a similar slip cover due to the
"anti-Asian" controversy surrounding the photos. Perhaps he is just trying
to avoid further complications.

Rob


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 14:48:52 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery

For an interesting take on these issues, see the lead story in today's Salon at
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/01/31/kincaid/index.html

On Sat, Mar 08, 2036 at 05:07:41PM -0800, Cindy Emch wrote:
> The Japanese S&M and other intense imagery that Mr. Zorn has used, for whatever given effect, has used ADULTS, and thus although it may not be your cup of tea, they are consenting adults and they may do their intense things and some powerful images may come out of it.

Did the victims of the tortures, executions, and post-mortem mutilations
consent?

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #846
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