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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #845
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Sunday, January 30 2000 Volume 02 : Number 845
In this issue:
-
Re: Threadgill recs
Taboo and exile imageri
Triple Masada in London
Threadgill
threadgills
Re: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
RE: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
Re: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
Re: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:59:43 EST
From: Nervenet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Threadgill recs
William York wrote:
<<Does anyone have recommendations for 'must-have' or 'most frequently
listened to' Henry Threadgill albums?>>
You betcha. Threadgill's band Very Very Circus is always worth hearing - two
guitars, two tubas, threadgill, drums, and either french horn or trombone,
depending on which disc you pick up, often augmented by other players. I like
all their albums, but "Carry the Day" is the best IMO. "Spirit of
Nuff...Nuff" on Black Saint is nice, a good showcase for his writing. "Makin'
a Move" is one that took me a while to get into, but it's repayed my
persistance very well. It alternates VVC tracks with odd combos like 3 cellos
plus threadgill, or four guitars plus Myra Melford (piano), or just guitars
and cellos. He has an album (never on CD, to my knowledge) from the late 70's
or early 80s with a title that has an "X" in it and some numbers ("X-71" or
some such). This is all basses and flutes, maybe drums on some cuts, maybe
not. An odd one, but maybe you'll dig the instrumentation if you can find it.
His last album for Columbia was credited to Henry Threadgill & Make A Move
and called "Where's Your Cup?" I really enjoyed this too - sax, guitar,
electric bass, accordion/harmonium, and drums. All the Air discs are trios
and if you enjoy one, I think it's safe to say you'll enjoy the rest. Only
"Air Lore" (consisting largely of Scott Joplin and Jelly Roll Morton tunes)
doesn't venture into the abstract so much. As with my Ayler recommendations
earlier, I haven't heard any Threadgill I didn't like. He just slips right
through my critical facilities and all I hear is different degrees of great
with his music. Buy everything, be it "jazz" instrumentation or not - and
it's usually not with him. He's brilliant at arranging voices not often heard
in jazz (cello, french horn, four flutes, accordion, whatever) and every
album has some surprise with it. He's one of the greatest writers working in
jazz and I love to give him his due anytime the opportunity presents itself.
Patrick M. Brown
Nervenet@aol.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 21:22:09 +-100
From: Francesco Vignotto <francesco.v@pn.itnet.it>
Subject: Taboo and exile imageri
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Well, I think that the two pictures has nothing to do with pornography, but with children's sexuality
That's important: it is a taboo and it is exiled
The music himself explores this. Remember as in the liner notes: "ridiscover one's innocence
f
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- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:21:33 +0100
From: "Rob Allaert" <rob.allaert@charity.nu>
Subject: Triple Masada in London
I was privileged to witness Masada String Trio / Bar Kokhba Sextet / Masada
in the Barbican in London. It was an experience of pure beauty. Every set
was kind of short but putting the three together we were able to enjoy a
more than complete concert! I noticed that especially the Bar Kokhba set was
much appreciated by the crowd. To 'conduct' the Trio Zorn just sat in front
of them on the floor. He also conducted Bar Kokhba, from a chair this time.
Then, of course, Masada added some dynamite playing which impressed many.
The whole show was recorded by the English Radio. (a CD release on Tzadik
???).
Between the sets and after the concert there were a lot of Zorn and
Zorn-related CD's for sale. I noticed that a lot of people needed some
explanation on the different albums which the people behind the table
weren't able to provide. So, I helped them out. People kept asking which CD
was by the sextet. But they didn't have 'Circle Maker' or 'Bar Kokhba' !!
The guys behind the table really appreciated that I increased their number
of sales and offered me Erik Friedlander's newest CD "Skin" which is only to
be released on February 15. I didn't refuse :-)
"Skin", by the way, turns out to be a wonderful CD, especially 'Susan' and
'Sahel Va Danya'. Highly recommended. Surf to "www.erikfriedlander.com" for
1 full MP3 song and 2 MP3 previews.
Am I right that this was only the second time they played the three sets
(the 1st time being in Warschau) ?
Rob, Belgium.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 16:38:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <jbivins@indiana.edu>
Subject: Threadgill
William,
It sounds like you're primarily interested in the group Very Very Circus?
Song Out of My Trees has some tracks, and in addition to what's already
been mentioned, there's Spirit of Nuff . . . Nuff, Live at Koncepts, and
Make a Move (which has a program like Song Out of My Trees).
Can't go wrong with any Threadgill, imho. I love Air and all the Sextett
records too, but some of these can be difficult to track down.
Happy listening.
Jason
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:18:57 -0800
From: Martin_Wisckol@link.freedom.com
Subject: threadgills
I've yet to hear a Threadgill album that wasn't satisfying.
Threadgill's instincts and imagination has always been keen. He has
built a body of work incredibly rich and fresh. Like Egberto Gismonti,
he is known and recorded with some regularity (until recently!) but,
IMHO, not nearly recognized to the degree his artistry deserves. I'm
tempted to say I find more nourishment from him than from Cecil or Evan
Parker or Brotzman, but comparision at this level are odious.
In terms of the less jazz-oriented instrumentation, I would strongly
second "Too Much Sugar for a Dime." But the others are also great:
"Makin' a Move" features the Very Very Circus group on four of the
seven cuts. Of the remaining, one cut features four guitrs plus Myra
Melford -- reminiscnt of "OUt of Trees." Another features Thread's gill
with three cellos. Another has the four guitars and three cellos.
Plenty of tainted, wrenching love in the melodies throughout, and as
usual some good titles, such as Refined Poverty, Make Hot and Give, and
Dirty in the Right Places.
I've developed a special affection for 1997's "Where's Your Cup." This
is my favorite of his since 1993's "Too Much Sugar." For the first time
since Very Very Circus on "Carry the Day,'' he uses on ensemble for the
entire disc -- guitar, bass, drums plus Tony Cedras on accordion and
harmonium. I enjoy the textures Cedras brings -- a natural fit for
Threadgill, lending an almost quaint charm to proceedings.
I believe Laswell produces and Musso engineers all of the above
mentioned albums except "Trees."
Anybody know why there's apparently been nothing out since his Columbia
contract ended with "Cup"?
Finally, my favorite of his bands is his 7-member Sextet (or Sextett,
in later versions), although this is closer to trad instrumentation.
Deep textures and moods. Esp like "Just the facts and pass the bucket,"
"When was that," and in a bit less exotic, less suicidal mood "You know
the number," and "Easily Slip into Another World."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:10:42 -0500
From: Matthew Ross Davis <mrd@artswire.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
Some interesting thoughts on Zorn's "hidden" photo. I'm curious as to
what the differences are between the artwork in Taboo and Exile and the
artwork on such CDs as various Naked City albums (Torture Garden,
Heretic, Naked City, Radio), The String Quartets, Painkiller, etc. A
great deal of this is heavilly influenced by Zorn's well known affinity
with Japanese art and culture. I do wonder why similar questions haven't
been raised about these other albums that have been raised by T&E.
- --
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | http://www.metatronpress.com | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 00:00:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Todd Bramy <tbramy@oz.net>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
>As someone else said, it's either a comment on child porn, or it *is*
>child porn.
It's neither.
C'mon folks, before throwing a serious phrase like "child pornography"
around, make sure you know what it means. The above statement implies
someone's not too sure. If we're still talking about the picture of the
little girl on the cover, there is little room for words like 'eroticism'
and 'brutalization'. It's a beautiful photograph. Let's keep it that way.
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Todd Bramy
tbramy@oz.net
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Once the new art is created, it is up to us to
ensure its rightful place in the pantheon of
art history by persecuting and denouncing it.
-Steve Martin
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:21:01 +0100
From: "Artur Nowak" <arno@emd.pl>
Subject: RE: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
> I found the
> cover of T and E disturbing on first opening it. Eroticization
(sorry!)
> of children by adults *is* disturbing to me.
I don't think that the cover of "Taboo & Exile" is a comment on child
pornography, but a statement, that children have sexual life, wich is
a taboo in our culture. We know that well as psychological fact since
Freud, but we don't say it loud, for various reasons. I'm a reader of
this mailinglist for 5 years, not many times I noticed such big
difference between Americans and Europeans, but this time please let
me express it: Americans exaggetare interpreting this cover as comment
on child pornography. My interpretation is very basic: children have
sexual life. I doesn't lead me to a questions like that:
> what is Zorn up to here? Is he commenting on the practice of kiddie
> porn? Is he trying to raise questions about the
> relationship between kiddie porn and art? Is he into kiddie porn
himself? Does
> he care at all about the conditions under which child pornography is
produced?
It's like an american cop movie, where the good police-guy, who is
chasing after a psycho-guy, becomes psycho himself. Sorry.
Zorn doesn't "eroticizes" (?) children, Zorn rather shows a fact of
their sexual life, but because the cover photo is just beautifull, it
may cause very weird feeling - the girl looks attractive despite of
her age. I don't doubt that this feeling is disturbing, especially to
people who don't want to admit first, that children have sexual life.
A men, who will see this photo _may_ discover disturbing feeling for
this girl in him. And that's Zorn's deep message. Of course it touches
one of the greates taboos; but we like to think about the bad guys who
do bad things, and we don't like to discover a litle piece of
POTENTIALY bad guy in ourselves. This cover is not disturbing comment
on children pornography, it's disturbing comment about bad guy in
ourselves.
__________________________________________________________________
Artur Nowak [arno AT emd.pl]
www.emd.pl - Discography of Bill Frisell
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:15:25 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
Responses to 2 different people:
> Some interesting thoughts on Zorn's "hidden" photo. I'm curious as to
> what the differences are between the artwork in Taboo and Exile and the
> artwork on such CDs as various Naked City albums (Torture Garden,
> Heretic, Naked City, Radio), The String Quartets, Painkiller, etc. A
> great deal of this is heavilly influenced by Zorn's well known affinity
> with Japanese art and culture. I do wonder why similar questions haven't
> been raised about these other albums that have been raised by T&E.
I see a slight difference in that it's kind of hard for a lot of us to
appreciate the picture under the tray as "art", we probably mostly see it
as child pornography and hence make the further connection that Zorn may be
a dirty old man or something. I personally find a lot of the Naked City and
Painkiller artwork (Leng Tch'e is a good example) pretty spine-chilling,
but maybe that's an attraction which can even extend to the point that I
call that "art". I still find the whole concept quite disgusting, but we
know that Zorn is trying to shock. It's a similar story with the T&E
picture, but I think we are less shocked by the picture than the notion
that Zorn is into it. Now if Zorn was to say that the kind of gory stuff
depicted on Naked City and Painkiller stuff was "cool" and "turned him on",
I may be getting a little scared. Maybe he does?
> C'mon folks, before throwing a serious phrase like "child pornography"
> around, make sure you know what it means. The above statement implies
> someone's not too sure. If we're still talking about the picture of the
> little girl on the cover, there is little room for words like 'eroticism'
> and 'brutalization'. It's a beautiful photograph. Let's keep it that way.
Let's make things clear... I think most people are talking about the
picture of the girl playing with herself, not the cover photo.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 00:29:23 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Taboo & Exile Imagery
> > C'mon folks, before throwing a serious phrase like "child pornography"
> > around, make sure you know what it means. The above statement implies
> > someone's not too sure. If we're still talking about the picture of the
> > little girl on the cover, there is little room for words like
'eroticism'
> > and 'brutalization'. It's a beautiful photograph. Let's keep it that
way.
>
> Let's make things clear... I think most people are talking about the
> picture of the girl playing with herself, not the cover photo.
Oh yeah, and when I initially made the comment about the picture either
being a comment on child porn, or actually *being* child porn, it's simply
because I am not sure where Zorn stands on these things, not because I am
unsure on what child porn is (not that I'm proud of that or anything!! : )
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:28:02 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
Todd Bramy wrote:
>
> >As someone else said, it's either a comment on child porn, or it *is*
> >child porn.
>
> It's neither.
>
> C'mon folks, before throwing a serious phrase like "child pornography"
> around, make sure you know what it means. The above statement implies
> someone's not too sure.
All I meant was that I'm not sure of Zorn's intent. If it is merely to
titillate, then it's pornographic. (Notice my backing away by using the
adjective rather than the noun.) The front cover photo is beautiful,
and for that reason, disturbing, as I do find it erotic, despite the
child's age--and ambiguous gender, for that matter. Like another poster
said, we don't like to see these "bad" things in ourselves. What's
interesting is that while I do not harbor sexual fantasies about
children, the erotic nature of the T&E photos raises disturbing
questions about my own response, which is, I suppose, partly what Zorn
wants to do.
>If we're still talking about the picture of the
> little girl on the cover, there is little room for words like 'eroticism'
Subjective response, and all that. Sorry, but you're dead wrong on this
one.
> and 'brutalization'.
I was referring to the ways in which child porn is produced. As I said,
they may not apply in this case.
It's a beautiful photograph. Let's keep it that way.
If that were all it is, then we could. In the context in which it is
presented, we can't just leave things as they appear on the suface.
- --Mike
> ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
> Once the new art is created, it is up to us to
> ensure its rightful place in the pantheon of
> art history by persecuting and denouncing it.
> -Steve Martin
> ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
If you think that I think Zorn should be censored, well, you're quite
mistaken.
- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Broadcaster, Father, Farmer, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Sumo Nut, Bald Guy
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2000 10:02:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Todd Bramy <tbramy@oz.net>
Subject: Re: Taboo & Exile Imagery
>>If we're still talking about the picture of the
>> little girl on the cover, there is little room for words like 'eroticism'
>
>Subjective response, and all that. Sorry, but you're dead wrong on this
>one.
You're right, the issue is pretty subjective. The photograph does not
arouse sexual desire in me. For that reason, I do not find it erotic. You
find it erotic and others probably do too, but to imply that the photograph
is a cut and dry example of eroticism is a misnomer. I would say the same
to my lovable uncle Lee, a foot fetishist, who proclaims the full-page shoe
ads in the Sunday Times are erotic.
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Todd Bramy
tbramy@oz.net
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Once the new art is created, it is up to us to
ensure its rightful place in the pantheon of
art history by persecuting and denouncing it.
-Steve Martin
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #845
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