home
***
CD-ROM
|
disk
|
FTP
|
other
***
search
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
2014.06.ftp.xmission.com.tar
/
ftp.xmission.com
/
pub
/
lists
/
zorn-list
/
archive
/
v02.n833
< prev
next >
Wrap
Internet Message Format
|
2000-01-14
|
23KB
From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #833
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, January 14 2000 Volume 02 : Number 833
In this issue:
-
Re: New list member sez "Hey"
Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Re: New list member sez "Hey"
Re: 1999
Tomas Espera
Zorn discography
Re: Douglas's Charms
Re: Zorn discography
Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:52:53 -0500
From: amarks@dspt.com
Subject: Re: New list member sez "Hey"
From: Andrew Marks@DSPT on 01/14/2000 02:52 PM
For JZ as sideman, you most definitely CANNOT pass up
Joe Piscopo's New Jersey. :-)
(I actually own this CD, found it in a cutout bin for $3)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:09:22 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:12:34 -0500 Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>
> I don't think that Susie Ibarra and Assif Tsahars' interpretation of
> this letter was a mis-reading. Why? Because it was extremely impolitic
> on Steven Joerg's part to write such a letter, and h should have known
> better than to do so. Even though he describes Ms Ibarra as "gifted,"
> the letter makes it sound as though her success is as much a matter of
> luck as of talent. One wonders about Joerg's motives. And that, I
> think, is why Ibarra and Tsahar were so upset with him.
>
> In addition, while Joerg contested Yaffe's idea (if that was indeed the
> thrust of his article, which itself is a matter of interpretaion--I
> haven't read it) that Susie Ibarra has had unique difficulties as a
> woman, he does not cite the offending passages or offer a cogent
> argument to rebut Yaffe, as I see it.
I totally agree with you. If Joerg had a problem, it was more with the
writer of the article, than with Susie (or at least that is what we would
like to believe...). Unfortunately, we can feel that he almost makes Susie
responsible for the journalist's choice. I am amazed by Joerg's resentment
that the journalist decided to focus on Susie instead of William (or another
25 year veteran). Susie plays a genre of music that still has a macho
reputation (cf Brotzmann or Schlippenbach not flattering comments on women
musicians). Except for somebody totally abstracted from the real world (like
unfortunately too many fanatics), it should be obvious what had the most
appeal to the editor (and the readers of the journal). The article was about
a musician, but it did not mean that the article was only about music. Looking
at it from the outside, there are few people in Susie's position, and a lot in
William's one. Nobody with a little bit of common sense could reproach the
journalist's choice.
It is really sad that in the (almost) guetto of improv, people don't help
each others. The improv community should have been happy seeing one of its
members getting some visibility. Or are we supposed to believe that there is
a hierarchy based on the number of years you have been striving? It is
maybe sad, but the story of a striving jazz musician is old hat for the
general audience.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:22:47 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: New list member sez "Hey"
At 09:49 AM 1/14/00 -0500, JckIsn wrote:
>
>Regarding JZ as a "sideman" : On "NekonoTopia NekonoMania" by Seigen Ono,
>Zorn plays(no song writing credits) on quite a few tracks . Would someone be
>able to provide a "short" list of releases that Zorn contributed to in this
>capacity ?
Check out Patrice's discography at
http://www.wnur.org/jazz/artists/zorn.john/discog.html.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing. There is more
than one way to conquer a country.
- -- Raymond Chandler
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:24:57 -0500
From: James Hale <jhale@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: 1999
Mike Chamberlain wrote:
> Ah man, how could I leave this one off?
>
> Tom Waits (NYC)
Well, yeah, we thought maybe you'd ventured into the chilly Montreal
night without your tuque.
James Hale
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:50:12 -0800 (PST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?A?= <Enfermo@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Tomas Espera
*A) That my least fav Tom Waits album ever was such a big hit with
the
list.
*As for his live presentation, I was whelmed.
- ------------------
Your least favorite????
I┤m probably not in the position to speak, since I┤ve only heard 3
full Waits albums (Mule, Raindogs & Swordfishtrombones) but Mule
Variations if my favorite because it┤s quite emotional, some songs
like "Hold On" really touch me in my erogenous zones...I┤m aroused
now
A
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:03:34 -0800 (PST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?A?= <Enfermo@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Zorn discography
I guess you all know the site devoted to JZ┤s complete
discography...it hasn┤t been updated in a year so does anyone know
when and if there┤s gonna be an update???
A
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:05:34 -0500
From: James Hale <jhale@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Douglas's Charms
Dave Douglas talks extensively about the RCA contract in my profile of
him in the next issue of Coda. The second RCA recording will feature
Charms of the Night Sky performing music Dave wrote for choreographer
Trisha Brown's "Five Part Weather Invention" and other pieces. In part,
Dave says: "The deal with RCA is an exclusive one, but they're very open
to me appearing as a sideman with other people.... I have the feeling
that I'm free to create as I want with RCA, and that's why I went with
them."
He also says that the RCA contract gives him a chance to "catch my
breath." As far as getting the "Old Dave" back as Scott hopes, I don't
know. Dave was pretty definite about wanting to slow down and
concentrate on bigger pieces, including more electronic compositions and
other dance works.
The Coda should be out in February.
James Hale
Jazz Journalist
Ottawa Canada
Scott Handley wrote:
>
> For those who don't yet know, Dave has signed a contract with RCA, if memory
> serves correct. He seems to defend the decision (vis a vis the freedom of
> recording for a half dozen small independent labels; that is, the freedom to
> put out four or five releases a year with five or six bands, plus unlimited
> sideman work) based on 1.) exposure, and 2.) it's not a terribly bad deal,
> with an assured minimum of 2 releases a year, plus acquiescence to reissues
> (such as the HatARt reisuue [?] of CONSTELLATIONS). The first album is due
> (I think) next month, and it's a new sextet record, a tribute to the life
> and work of Mary Lou Williams. The second record will be theatre music from
> the CHarms group. Yippee! The contract binds him for two years. Perhaps
> after that we can have Old Dave back (says the record lecher in me).
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:24:27 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn discography
On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:03:34 -0800 (PST) =?iso-8859-1?q?A?= wrote:
>
> I guess you all know the site devoted to JZ┤s complete
> discography...it hasn┤t been updated in a year so does anyone know
> when and if there┤s gonna be an update???
I try to update the discographies when their content has increased by 10%.
The last update on the WNUR site had 240 entries; the current one has 268.
Which means that I will provide an update before the end of the month.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:16:08 -0500
From: "Rick Lopez" <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
>From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
>
>Moudry wrote:
>>
>,
>>
>> The text of the letter from Steven reads as follows:
>>
>> David Yaffe's article on Susie Ibarra, "Holding Her Own Among All the Guys"
>> [May 30], leads the reader to believe that this gifted 28-year-old drummer
>> has had unique difficulties getting her voice heard in the realm of
>> avant-garde jazz because she is a woman. This is belied by the trajectory
>> of Ms. Ibarra's career and indeed by the existence of the article itself.
>>
>> A creative life in jazz is so fraught with obstacles and so spare in its
>> opportunities that most of its great talents work without receiving wide
>> recognition. Witness but one example: Denis Charles, master drummer (and
>> mentor to Ms. Ibarra in the last years of his life), passed away one year
>> ago with little notice outside a still woefully small audience that is even
>> aware of his music.
>>
>> In stark contrast, shortly after Ms. Ibarra arrived in New York six years
>> ago, she was invited by William Parker to join his masterly ensembles, the
>> Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra and In Order to Survive; her first
>> national exposure was through these groups.
>>
>> This led to her tenure in the David S. Ware Quartet: the highest-profile
>> gig in this small arena -- a profile that, like William's, is based on
>> 25-plus years of dedication to creative improvisation and copious amounts
>> of hardship. Ms. Ibarra thus became part of a family of musicians at a time
>> when their lifetimes' worth of work was finally beginning to pay dividends.
>>
>> Steven Joerg,
>> Brooklyn
>> ==================================
>>
>> Moudry again.
>>
>> All of which, as it appeared on pg. 4 of the Arts & Leisure section, is
>> true. I can understand a mis-reading by someone, but only regret that in
>> the interval between the misunderstanding and now the most exciting quartet
>> since Trane's classic quartet (Tyner, Garrison, & Jones) has ceased to exit
>> except in the memories of those of us who were fortunate to catch them
>> live, and on far too few precious recordings. Even more of a loss is Ibarra
>> and Parker no longer creating together in various contexts.
>
>Even though he describes Ms Ibarra as "gifted,"
>the letter makes it sound as though her success is as much a matter of
>luck as of talent. One wonders about Joerg's motives. And that, I
>think, is why Ibarra and Tsahar were so upset with him.
No, he says that her success, ">>like William's, is based on
>> 25-plus years of dedication to creative improvisation and copious amounts
>> of hardship" AND, that she had some very good luck indeed in landing in
NYC at the same time that Willi'm's and David's projects were getting some
high-profile attention. I'd like some of this type of luck, and I wouldn't
be ashamed of it if it happened.
>In addition, while Joerg contested Yaffe's idea (if that was indeed the
>thrust of his article, which itself is a matter of interpretaion--I
>haven't read it) that Susie Ibarra has had unique difficulties as a
>woman, he does not cite the offending passages or offer a cogent
>argument to rebut Yaffe, as I see it.
Again:
>> A creative life in jazz is so fraught with obstacles and so spare in its
>> opportunities that most of its great talents work without receiving wide
>> recognition.
regardless of whether or not someone is female.
Like Moudry, I can understand someone mis-reading this, ESPECIALLY taken
with the spin of the "What Struggle" heading, but I think the letter was
clear (I read it without the heading and saw *none* of the offense) and
written with the best intentions.
Has anyone seen Coppola's THE CONVERSATION? Deals with an aural illusion.
Something is said but because the information is limited the inflection
becomes unclear and the opposite of the truth is assumed... The heading was
a spin-job that worked some lethal/sad/pointless bullshit into a
well-intentioned letter.
Please DIG THIS: I have some inside info on this which will never see the
light of day simply because I've given my word it won't. Joerg's letter,
sans header, is quite clear. The tumble of misinterpretations that flew
around between the principles was a storm that should have never happened.
Calmer heads, etcetera.
All together now: Nobody knows what anybody else intends.
Quitchaguessin'!
All we can do is hope that a few years down the line these people are making
music together again! I love them all.
Weekend,
Rrrrr
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, William Parker, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp,
David S. Ware, and Reggie Workman Discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,
at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k
UPDATE January 10, 2000:
vids, a few CDs, baseball books, a few Cadence back issues, a few more
CDs...
***Very Various For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:28:22 -0500
From: "Rick Lopez" <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
>On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:48:39AM -0500, Rick Lopez wrote:
>
>> Joerg (AUMFidelity) letter (re: above) appeared in NYT.
>>
>> Tsahar reads letter (slanted with NYT editor's spiky bullshit heading) so
>> actually *misreads* letter, and demands Parker and all other humans distance
>> themselves from Joerg.
>
>I'm curious as to which letter this was. The NYTimes archives lists three
>letters, headed "Unsung Drummers", "Not the Only One", and "What
>Struggle?", but doesn't give enough of the text to tell, or an
>attribution, without one paying $2.50 to view the item. (I suspect it's
>the third one...)
It is.
RL
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, William Parker, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp,
David S. Ware, and Reggie Workman Discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,
at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k
UPDATE January 10, 2000:
vids, a few CDs, baseball books, a few Cadence back issues, a few more
CDs...
***Very Various For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:53:30 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:16:08 -0500 "Rick Lopez" wrote:
>
> Please DIG THIS: I have some inside info on this which will never see the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Be careful: insider info on stupid stories like that ends up to be totally
biased. By principle, we always hear the side of the victim, and the bad
guy is on the other side.
> light of day simply because I've given my word it won't. Joerg's letter,
> sans header, is quite clear. The tumble of misinterpretations that flew
> around between the principles was a storm that should have never happened.
> Calmer heads, etcetera.
Based on that we could believe that the story stopped with Joerg's letter
and that everything else was just us (the outsiders) rambling about a story
of which we understood nothing.
Are (since you claim to have insider info) you not surprised that this affair
went as far as that? Could we assume that the protagonists of that sad affair
were as clueless as us (the outsiders)?
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:08:13 -0500
From: "Rick Lopez" <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
>
>On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:16:08 -0500 "Rick Lopez" wrote:
>>
>> Please DIG THIS: I have some inside info on this which will never see the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Be careful: insider info on stupid stories like that ends up to be totally
>biased. By principle, we always hear the side of the victim, and the bad
>guy is on the other side.
But I heard everyone's side. And take none.
>> light of day simply because I've given my word it won't. Joerg's letter,
>> sans header, is quite clear. The tumble of misinterpretations that flew
>> around between the principles was a storm that should have never happened.
>> Calmer heads, etcetera.
>
>Based on that we could believe that the story stopped with Joerg's letter
>and that everything else was just us (the outsiders) rambling about a story
>of which we understood nothing.
I don't get this. I mean the tumble, etc. between the musicmakers. It began
before SJ's letter, and spun out totally after. The rambling wasn't
everything else, it's just guesswork, right?
>Are (since you claim to have insider info) you not surprised that this affair
>went as far as that?
Yes. *Very* sad. It honestly could have all been avoided...
>Could we assume that the protagonists of that sad affair
>were as clueless as us (the outsiders)?
Yes. In their own human ways. Perspectives. Mine is just an overview of a
disaster. I, with my vast saviour complex, could fix it all if they'd just
listen to me for a minute! ;-) (I have no right though, dammitt...)
HEY! I'm going crazy here. Anyone know anything about grants/money/help for
caring for an elder relative at home? More OFF-TOPIC pleadings on this from
me soon-- to all and all lists and everyone whose e-mail address I can stuff
into a cc: line...
love, stress, love, stress, love,
R
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, William Parker, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp,
David S. Ware, and Reggie Workman Discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,
at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k
UPDATE January 10, 2000:
vids, a few CDs, baseball books, a few Cadence back issues, a few more
CDs...
***Very Various For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:16:14 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Rick Lopez wrote:
I wrote:
> >Even though he describes Ms Ibarra as "gifted,"
> >the letter makes it sound as though her success is as much a matter of
> >luck as of talent. One wonders about Joerg's motives. And that, I
> >think, is why Ibarra and Tsahar were so upset with him.
>
> No, he says that her success, ">>like William's, is based on
> >> 25-plus years of dedication to creative improvisation and copious amounts
> >> of hardship"
He does not. In this passage, Joerg was referring to David S. Ware.
>AND, that she had some very good luck indeed in landing in
> NYC at the same time that Willi'm's and David's projects were getting some
> high-profile attention. I'd like some of this type of luck, and I wouldn't
> be ashamed of it if it happened.
Sounds like, "What's she complaining about? She is lucky to be where
she is. She doesn't know anything about hardship."
>
> >In addition, while Joerg contested Yaffe's idea (if that was indeed the
> >thrust of his article, which itself is a matter of interpretaion--I
> >haven't read it) that Susie Ibarra has had unique difficulties as a
> >woman, he does not cite the offending passages or offer a cogent
> >argument to rebut Yaffe, as I see it.
>
> Again:
> >> A creative life in jazz is so fraught with obstacles and so spare in its
> >> opportunities that most of its great talents work without receiving wide
> >> recognition.
> regardless of whether or not someone is female.
This is true, but it in no way addresses specifically anything that was
said in the article.
>
> Like Moudry, I can understand someone mis-reading this, ESPECIALLY taken
> with the spin of the "What Struggle" heading, but I think the letter was
> clear (I read it without the heading and saw *none* of the offense) and
> written with the best intentions.
Well, if I were in Susie Ibarra's position and my boss wrote a letter
like this, I think I'd be more than just a little upset. I didn't see
the original article, and I don't know enough about Susie Ibarra's
career to say whether she faced obstacles because she is female, but if
Joerg had a problem with the spin that the writer put on it, the place
to take it up was privately, with David Yaffe, rather than in a letter
to the NYTimes. Even if EVERYTHING that Joerg says is true, and even if
the letter was written with the best intentions (I guess to bring
attention to Parker and Ware) it was not the right forum, and it looks a
lot like Steven Joerg pissing on Susie Ibarra's parade.
>
> Please DIG THIS: I have some inside info on this which will never see the
> light of day simply because I've given my word it won't. Joerg's letter,
> sans header, is quite clear. The tumble of misinterpretations that flew
> around between the principles was a storm that should have never happened.
> Calmer heads, etcetera.
>
> All together now: Nobody knows what anybody else intends.
And should we then take your word (which I don't doubt) about Joerg's
word (which I do doubt) to you?
>
> Quitchaguessin'!
Good luck, Rick.
>
> All we can do is hope that a few years down the line these people are making
> music together again! I love them all.
>
On this, we agree.
Cheers,
- --Mike
- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Broadcaster, Father, Farmer, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Sumo Nut, Bald Guy
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #833
*******************************
To unsubscribe from zorn-list-digest, send an email to
"majordomo@lists.xmission.com"
with
"unsubscribe zorn-list-digest"
in the body of the message.
For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send
"help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.
A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "zorn-list-digest"
in the commands above with "zorn-list".
Back issues are available for anonymous FTP from ftp.xmission.com, in
pub/lists/zorn-list/archive. These are organized by date.
Problems? Email the list owner at zorn-list-owner@lists.xmission.com