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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #832
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, January 14 2000 Volume 02 : Number 832
In this issue:
-
Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Re: Zorn: Art/Suffering
Re: yearlists
Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
open center events
we don't talk like that around here
Naked City
New list member sez "Hey"
Re: Naked City
Re: yearlists
Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Re: Zorn: Art/Suffering
Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:40:42 CET
From: "Andreas Dietz" <andreasdietz@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
>From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
>Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:49:37 -0500
>
>disappointments/sadnesses
>
>Susie Ibarra/William Parker split
I┤ve heard some rumor about this but couldn┤t figure out the reasons. Can
someone give some details?
Andreas Dietz
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:09:25 GMT
From: "Bill Ashline" <bashline@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Zorn: Art/Suffering
>From: Rick H <ajirons@uswest.net>
>
>2)is his music --considering there is no verbal content--
>understandable in these terms without the radical cover art
>of his cd's (like the mutilation photos, Japanese S&M, the
>graphic photos of the execution/dis-memberment of "Leng
>Tch'e" etc.) [How does this relate to art, statement,
>expression and context in general]
If you have not already done so, you might want to look at the work of
Georges Bataille on these issues. I think Zorn has credited him on some of
his works. Particularly, Tears of Eros (where the Leng Tch'e photo is
located) and Eroticism.
>4)Is the music, the art, sacrificed in the attempt at such
>expressions so that it is impossible to situate his more
>radical works in the aesthetic sphere? In other words, at
>those moments, is it even music anymore?
This question begs the question as to whether or not there is an "aesthetic
sphere" and whether or not there exists a category called music that one's
production of sound can either belong to or not. And moreover who
adjudicates this issue as well as the matter of artistic quality?
I've posted this in another list, but it might be worth adding here. There
is an article that addresses some of these issues about Zorn's music in an
online journal. I reproduce the link below (apologies to those who've seen
it elsewhere):
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/text-only/issue.195/mcneilly.195
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:28:08 +1100
From: "Julian" <jcurwin@hartingdale.com.au>
Subject: Re: yearlists
The albums I most enjoyed:
Mr Bungle "California" (still, not even close to their other 2)
Ray Anderson "Where Home Is"
Uri Caine live Mahler and "Sidewalks Of New York"
Tom Waits "Mule Variations"
and Tin Hat Trio "Memory Is An Elephant" was pretty good too.
I also discovered some good Australian jazz, not that most people would be
too interested. But for the record, Sydney trombonist James Greening and
guitarist James Muller blew me away the most. On a more Zorny note, both of
these artists play with a great alto sax player named Andrew Robson, who
seems to be quite influenced by Zorn in both playing and composition. Plus
he's only 2 "degrees" away having played with Tony Buck who played with
Zorn on Ground Zero's self-titled album.
My greatest discovery this year was an older CD by Bobby Previte, which I
managed to get coincidentally about a week before it became unavailable -
"Too Close To The Pole". And I realise that it may be re-released, but it's
been in my CD player pretty consistently this year, so I don't think it
would have been worth waiting. It's definitely become one of my
favourites...
Greatest live music experiences for me:
- - seeing a fantastic gypsy/klezmer/classical band called Adana in Melbourne
last January. They even played a handful of Zorn pieces.
- - Ray Anderson's Pocket Brass Band at the Basement (Sydney) 18/7/99 with
Bobby Previte, Jack Walrath and Matt Perrine.
- - Bobby Previte's Bitches Brew Project at the Basement 3/2/99.
...and lots of local "modern jazz" stuff.
Oh, and although the show was kind of contrived, it was pretty amazing
seeing Kurt Elling do Coltrane's "Resolution" as a vocalise...
Julian.
http://www.hartingdale.com.au/~jcurwin
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:48:39 -0500
From: "Rick Lopez" <bb10k@velocity.net>
Subject: Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
>>Susie Ibarra/William Parker split
>
>I=B4ve heard some rumor about this but couldn=B4t figure out the reasons. Can
>someone give some details?
Ibarra split with Ware.
Ibarra article appeared in NYT.
Joerg (AUMFidelity) letter (re: above) appeared in NYT.
Tsahar reads letter (slanted with NYT editor's spiky bullshit heading) so
actually *misreads* letter, and demands Parker and all other humans distanc=
e
themselves from Joerg.
Parker, fed up with political noises from all directions, says No More.
BIG human misunderstandings, upshot.
Pray all concerned recover.
R
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, William Parker, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp,
David S. Ware, and Reggie Workman Discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.=
,
at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k
UPDATE January 10, 2000:
vids, a few CDs, baseball books, a few Cadence back issues, a few more
CDs...
***Very Various For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:06:21 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: open center events
Just got this schedule -- a lot of interesting poetry things as well, but I cut
it to the stuff of immediate interest here. Call them, or heck, email me back,
for the full Beats & Beyond schedule.
kg
The New York Open Center (83 Spring Street, NYC, 212-219-2527) is
presenting a series of poetry readings and talks this winter/spring called
"Beats & Beyond," featuring the following events (all beginning at 8pm
unless otherwise noted):
April 28: ED SANDERS, poet, author, and cofounder of The Fugs, reading and
singing from his new book-length poem tracing the poetry and life of Allen
Ginsberg ($9)
Another interesting series at the Open Center is a music series
co-sponsored with Roulette, NYC's premiere nurturer of innovative
composers, musicians, and interdisciplinary artists:
Sat. Jan. 29, 8pm: GINA LEISHMAN, composer and multi-instrumentalist who
has written for and performed in theater, opera, circus, dance, film and
TV. Her jazz septet, The Kamikaze Ground Crew, has played around the
world. Tonight, she'll perform recent w
ork and talk about her creative process. "
Sat. March 11, 8pm: MARTY EHRLICH'S DARK WOODS ENSEMBLE. Marty Ehrlich
has been acclaimed as "one of the most formidable multi-instrumentalists
since Eric Dolphy...the..dream musician," and is a renowned, prolific
composer. His Dark Woods Ensemble includes Ehrlich's clarinets, Erik Friedlander
on cello and Mark Helias on bass. Their most recent recording is Sojourn.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:23:15 -0500
From: kurt_gottschalk@scni.com
Subject: we don't talk like that around here
New Zornlister Rick H wrote:
Finally, my apologies if this is outside the usual
paramaters of discussion here.
Sorry to sidestep the hard questions, Rick. Maybe I'll try to get back to them.
But in themeantime, if there is anything outside the parameters of discussion
here, I hope we always have new people coming in to break those parameters.
Welcome.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:10:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Theo Klaase <river_of_dogs@yahoo.com>
Subject: Naked City
It is my understanding that all the Naked City
albums were recorded at relativley the same time and
released over a period of years... What are the odds
of another Naked City album? ...or a live album? I
have some Naked City concert footage in which they
play some great material not found on any of the
albums...
=====
- -That which is Theodorus... "The way to see faith is to shut the eye of reason." www.freeyellow.com/members7/theodorus/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:49:12 -0500
From: "JckIsn" <jckisn@hotmail.com>
Subject: New list member sez "Hey"
Greetings from Cincinnati everyone & "Hey"
I am very interested in JZ's film works . I have collected each of the
TZADIK
releases (my vol.#1 is on Elektra/Nonesuch however). I count (8) in all . I
have to ask the the JZ scholars if this is, in fact, all that is available.
Regarding : Painkiller - "Buried Secrets" and "Guts of a Virgin" reissue .
I need a dub/cdr of the bonus disc that came with that TZADIK reissue . I
would trade a (2) cdr "Best of JZ Filmworks" compilation that I've made or
perhaps some other type barter. I try to keep cash OUT of bootleg &
counterfeit deals.
Regarding JZ as a "sideman" : On "NekonoTopia NekonoMania" by Seigen Ono,
Zorn plays(no song writing credits) on quite a few tracks . Would someone be
able to provide a "short" list of releases that Zorn contributed to in this
capacity ?
Thank you x 1,000,000
Jack from Cincinnati,
listening to "The Top of His Head"- Fred Frith Crammed/MTM #21
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:29:37 -0500
From: Matthew Ross Davis <mrd@artswire.org>
Subject: Re: Naked City
Bruce Galleter at Downtown Music Gallery told me there was the
possibility of a "reunion" album, though not a tour, since Frisell has
hearing trouble in one ear and would never do live stuff with Naked City
again. But I'm excited about the prospect of another release!
On Fri, Jan 14, 2000, Theo Klaase <river_of_dogs@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It is my understanding that all the Naked City
>albums were recorded at relativley the same time and
>released over a period of years... What are the odds
>of another Naked City album? ...or a live album? I
>have some Naked City concert footage in which they
>play some great material not found on any of the
>albums...
>
>=====
>-That which is Theodorus... "The way to see faith is to shut the eye of
>reason." www.freeyellow.com/members7/theodorus/index.html
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>http://im.yahoo.com
>
>-
>
>
- --
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | http://www.metatronpress.com | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:30:43 -0700
From: fishes <fishes@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: yearlists
> F) So few references to Frank Zappa...
"Death to the Demon Ahmed Zappa"
>That the members of a list with such widereaching tastes generally ignore
> blues and country music, despite the amount of great improvising that lives
> in those genres. >>
Well if you want to see something inexplicably country/blugrass check out
our pal Eric Royer's Guitar Machine. Truely one of the most amazing
musicians out there that no one has heard of...he plays the streets of
Boston these days, but we all miss him out here in the west. give him your
money-
http://www.guitarmachine.com
>1) finally heard what Husker Du sounded like.
ha! "land speed record" kicks ass...all i've heard the rest described as
"the R.E.M. of punk" justifyable imho...but if you really want it good and
insane listen to the first meat puppets record.
<e>>>
CortexBomb (shamefully plugging away)-
<!> http://www.mockbrwn.com/bands/cortex
<!> http://www.mp3.com/cortexbomb
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:51:09 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <jzitt@metatronpress.com>
Subject: Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:48:39AM -0500, Rick Lopez wrote:
> Joerg (AUMFidelity) letter (re: above) appeared in NYT.
>
> Tsahar reads letter (slanted with NYT editor's spiky bullshit heading) so
> actually *misreads* letter, and demands Parker and all other humans distance
> themselves from Joerg.
I'm curious as to which letter this was. The NYTimes archives lists three
letters, headed "Unsung Drummers", "Not the Only One", and "What
Struggle?", but doesn't give enough of the text to tell, or an
attribution, without one paying $2.50 to view the item. (I suspect it's
the third one...)
- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| jzitt@metatronpress.com http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:47:59 -0500
From: myke cuthbert <cuthbert@hcs.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Zorn: Art/Suffering
ajirons@uswest.net wrote on Jan 14:
>
> Is John Zorn a genre-shattering revolutionary musical
> innovator or just a hack?
>
> And, does he really explore the always ambiguous
> relationship between Art and suffering in projects like
> "Kristallnacht" or am I just simply high in seeing such an
> attempt in his projects?
In a New York Times article on Zorn on October 3, 1999 ("Downtown a
Search For Ethnicity"), Adam Shatz raises these issues (with a rather
nasty tone) asking questions like is Zorn's music ever going to get
off the suffering and vicitmhood of projects like "Kristallnacht"?
Bill Milkowski (a writer for Jazz Times) rebutts Shatz in the letters
section of NYT on Oct 17 poiting out that Shatz only cites
Kristallnacht, because that's the only project to cite (among his
Jewish themed CDs at least).
As far as suffering within art--the artist as tortured (rather than
using art to depict external suffering), i really don't hear that in
zorn's music. maybe a bit of the late 80s early 90s stuff, but not
earlier and not now. anyone else?
Fresh from a paper on Kristallnacht,
Myke Cuthbert
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:20:39 -0600
From: Moudry <Moudry@uab.edu>
Subject: Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
At 10:51 14-01-00 -0500, Joseph Zitt wrote:
>On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 07:48:39AM -0500, Rick Lopez wrote:
>
>> Joerg (AUMFidelity) letter (re: above) appeared in NYT.
>>
>> Tsahar reads letter (slanted with NYT editor's spiky bullshit heading) so
>> actually *misreads* letter, and demands Parker and all other humans
distance
>> themselves from Joerg.
>
>I'm curious as to which letter this was. The NYTimes archives lists three
>letters, headed "Unsung Drummers", "Not the Only One", and "What
>Struggle?", but doesn't give enough of the text to tell, or an
>attribution, without one paying $2.50 to view the item. (I suspect it's
>the third one...)
Joseph,
The text of the letter from Steven reads as follows:
===================================
[head, supplied by NYT]: What Struggle?
To the Editor:
David Yaffe's article on Susie Ibarra, "Holding Her Own Among All the Guys"
[May 30], leads the reader to believe that this gifted 28-year-old drummer
has had unique difficulties getting her voice heard in the realm of
avant-garde jazz because she is a woman. This is belied by the trajectory
of Ms. Ibarra's career and indeed by the existence of the article itself.
A creative life in jazz is so fraught with obstacles and so spare in its
opportunities that most of its great talents work without receiving wide
recognition. Witness but one example: Denis Charles, master drummer (and
mentor to Ms. Ibarra in the last years of his life), passed away one year
ago with little notice outside a still woefully small audience that is even
aware of his music.
In stark contrast, shortly after Ms. Ibarra arrived in New York six years
ago, she was invited by William Parker to join his masterly ensembles, the
Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra and In Order to Survive; her first
national exposure was through these groups.
This led to her tenure in the David S. Ware Quartet: the highest-profile
gig in this small arena -- a profile that, like William's, is based on
25-plus years of dedication to creative improvisation and copious amounts
of hardship. Ms. Ibarra thus became part of a family of musicians at a time
when their lifetimes' worth of work was finally beginning to pay dividends.
Steven Joerg,
Brooklyn
==================================
Moudry again.
All of which, as it appeared on pg. 4 of the Arts & Leisure section, is
true. I can understand a mis-reading by someone, but only regret that in
the interval between the misunderstanding and now the most exciting quartet
since Trane's classic quartet (Tyner, Garrison, & Jones) has ceased to exit
except in the memories of those of us who were fortunate to catch them
live, and on far too few precious recordings. Even more of a loss is Ibarra
and Parker no longer creating together in various contexts.
The other two letters were from Bruce Eaton, doing a knee-jerk one-up
reaction by naming another good female jazz drummer (also in the 13 June
issue), and none other than Marion McPartland doing the same thing in the
issue of 20 June, mentioning Cindy Blackmon, Terri Lynn Carrington, &
Allison Miller.
Hope this helps clarify somewhat.
Saturnally,
Joe Moudry
Technical Training Specialist & SOE WebMaster
Office of Academic Computing & Technology
School of Education
The University of Alabama @ Birmingham
E-Mail: Moudry@uab.edu
MaBell: (205) 975-6631
Fax: (205) 975-7494
Snail Mail:
901 13th Street South
149 EB
Birmingham AL 35205 USA
Master of Saturn Web (Sun Ra, the Arkestra, & Free Jazz):
<http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~moudry>
Producer/Host of Classic Jazz (Armstrong -> Ayler ->)on Alabama Public Radio:
WUAL 91.5FM Tuscaloosa/Birmingham
WQPR 88.7FM Muscle Shoals/NW Alabama
WAPR 88.3FM Selma/Montgomery/Southern Alabama
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:12:34 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: [Avant-Garde] Re: kurt's top 9s of 99
Moudry wrote:
>
,
>
> The text of the letter from Steven reads as follows:
>
> ===================================
> [head, supplied by NYT]: What Struggle?
>
> To the Editor:
>
> David Yaffe's article on Susie Ibarra, "Holding Her Own Among All the Guys"
> [May 30], leads the reader to believe that this gifted 28-year-old drummer
> has had unique difficulties getting her voice heard in the realm of
> avant-garde jazz because she is a woman. This is belied by the trajectory
> of Ms. Ibarra's career and indeed by the existence of the article itself.
>
> A creative life in jazz is so fraught with obstacles and so spare in its
> opportunities that most of its great talents work without receiving wide
> recognition. Witness but one example: Denis Charles, master drummer (and
> mentor to Ms. Ibarra in the last years of his life), passed away one year
> ago with little notice outside a still woefully small audience that is even
> aware of his music.
>
> In stark contrast, shortly after Ms. Ibarra arrived in New York six years
> ago, she was invited by William Parker to join his masterly ensembles, the
> Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra and In Order to Survive; her first
> national exposure was through these groups.
>
> This led to her tenure in the David S. Ware Quartet: the highest-profile
> gig in this small arena -- a profile that, like William's, is based on
> 25-plus years of dedication to creative improvisation and copious amounts
> of hardship. Ms. Ibarra thus became part of a family of musicians at a time
> when their lifetimes' worth of work was finally beginning to pay dividends.
>
> Steven Joerg,
> Brooklyn
> ==================================
>
> Moudry again.
>
> All of which, as it appeared on pg. 4 of the Arts & Leisure section, is
> true. I can understand a mis-reading by someone, but only regret that in
> the interval between the misunderstanding and now the most exciting quartet
> since Trane's classic quartet (Tyner, Garrison, & Jones) has ceased to exit
> except in the memories of those of us who were fortunate to catch them
> live, and on far too few precious recordings. Even more of a loss is Ibarra
> and Parker no longer creating together in various contexts.
I don't think that Susie Ibarra and Assif Tsahars' interpretation of
this letter was a mis-reading. Why? Because it was extremely impolitic
on Steven Joerg's part to write such a letter, and h should have known
better than to do so. Even though he describes Ms Ibarra as "gifted,"
the letter makes it sound as though her success is as much a matter of
luck as of talent. One wonders about Joerg's motives. And that, I
think, is why Ibarra and Tsahar were so upset with him.
In addition, while Joerg contested Yaffe's idea (if that was indeed the
thrust of his article, which itself is a matter of interpretaion--I
haven't read it) that Susie Ibarra has had unique difficulties as a
woman, he does not cite the offending passages or offer a cogent
argument to rebut Yaffe, as I see it.
- --Mike
- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Broadcaster, Father, Farmer, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Sumo Nut, Bald Guy
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #832
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