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1999-12-07
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #811
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Wednesday, December 8 1999 Volume 02 : Number 811
In this issue:
-
Re: For the List Admin
Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
http://www.mvd.org/balkan
Rai Music
RE: Joseph Jarman interview, Uri Caine article
Re: Rai Music
Re: Joseph Jarman interview, Uri Caine article
Bowie articles
Re: Bowie articles
bowie
Re: Judaism and Africa
Re: bowie
Re: bowie
Re: bowie
Misha Mengelberg?
Re: Misha Mengelberg?
Re: Misha Mengelberg?
Re: Misha Mengelberg?
freddie redd
Re: freddie redd
Re: freddie redd
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 23:05:18 -0500
From: Lang Thompson <wlt4@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: For the List Admin
>hey, could you please set up the list so that all the message's subject
>lines start with [zorn], like they used to before you switched servers?
> I'm on a number of mailing list, and I often skip over things without
>reading them. The Zorn List postings are really valuable, and I like the
If you use a mail reader that has filtering (and unless you're on AOL you
probably do) then set up one filter to recognize anything with "zorn-list"
in the header and stick it in a separate folder. That's how I keep track
of about a dozen mailing lists and also have them all sorted together
rather than having to look through one big folder (especially if you tend
to save old messages like I do).
Best, LT
Full Alert Film Review
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/fafr.htm
Funhouse
http://wlt4.home.mindspring.com/funhouse.htm
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 23:14:39 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <cdeupree@erinet.com>
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
Something was missing for me in these discussions. I generally think of
much of the music discussed here as avant garde (with only a slight trace
of pomo irony ;-). One of my litcrit books has this thumbnail definition:
'a collective project (more or less explicitly defined and often shifting
over time) that linked artistic experimentation and a critique of outmoded
artistic practices with an ideological critique of bourgeois thought and a
desire for social change' (Susan Rubin Suleiman, Subversive Intent, p. 12).
One of the pieces missing from Kurt's definition as new or experimental is
the 'critique of outmoded artistic practices' (hence the followup putting
doo-wop and Bob Wills in the avant garde camp). Zorn's music, at least in
the game pieces, would easily meet this qualification, as do other
performances documented on the label (e.g., Maryanne Amacher, the various
sampler artists, Mamoru Fujieda). The whole of Scene Two of the Jazziz
interview discusses Zorn's take on artistic and performance practices.
I think we can easily see a community at work here as well. Many of the
artists who record for Tzadik perform both as side people and leaders, and
we often read and write about the 'downtown scene' as if it were a
collective. Even the mission statement on the Tzadik home page emphasizes
'the worldwide community of contemporary musicians-composers.' Zorn's work
with Tonic also points out his strong sense of community.
WRT the social change, I think I see that in many of the compositions, and
Zorn's comments on anti-Semitism in the Jazziz interview constitute some
idea of his thoughts on the subject. Other Tzadik artists, such as Fred
Frith and Zeena Parkins, have both been outspoken politically (and their
roots go back to Chris Cutler's Rock in Opposition, which was overtly
political, and with ReR was even more an avant-garde project than Tzadik).
Perhaps some of our reluctance to include Avant and Tzadik in the avant
garde is a feeling that the avant garde belongs to a particular period in
the past (the surrealists, or maybe the situationists). But the music
industry hasn't changed, and bourgeois/capitalist ideologies need as much
critique now as they did then. The Jazziz interview has put Zorn in the
mainstream, but his support of younger artists and open performance spaces
shows a continuing support for the avant garde, even if his own recent
releases (e.g., Masada) are more firmly traditional.
- --
Caleb Deupree
cdeupree@erinet.com
It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing. There is more
than one way to conquer a country.
- -- Raymond Chandler
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:32:43 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
In a message dated 12/6/99 11:09:38 PM, cdeupree@erinet.com writes:
<< Perhaps some of our reluctance to include Avant and Tzadik in the avant
garde is a feeling that the avant garde belongs to a particular period in
the past >>
that's not where my reluctance comes from. I don't think there's much
groundbreaking music coming out on Avant and Tzadik these days. I do think
there's more cutting-edge, groundbreaking music being recorded and released
now than ever before, partly because of the worldwide accessibility to what
other artists are doing, and partly because of how inexpensive it is to
release a small run of CDs. I just don't think much of it is on Tzadik and
Avant, with a couple of exceptions.
don't forget that this discussion began about Zorn's attempt to define the
avant garde, not anyone else. the pamphlet that Kurt referred to originally
is titled "A Guide to the New Generation of Avant Garde". my problem with it
isn't only that the "New Generations" sublist contained within contains the
whole Tzadik roster, it's also that it doesn't contain almost any of the
dozens of artists who truly are in the "New Generation of Avant Garde".
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 15:04:39 +0100
From: yugoplastica <yugoplastica@ny.mvd.org>
Subject: http://www.mvd.org/balkan
http://www.mvd.org/balkan
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:36:18 -0800
From: Jason Tors <jtors@organic.com>
Subject: Rai Music
I have to do some research on Rai music, does anyone have any good music
links, or other resources to tap into? I am going to be designing a feature
for the new [dont laugh] sting site. One of sting's collaborator's is the
pop rai star Cheb Mami, the feature will spotlight him, but I hope to get
more of a historical perspective to influence my designs. So if you have
good algerian art links send them along as well.
Are there any jazz influenced groups out there working from a rai inspired
format?
If you want to check out the sting site, it is at...
http://www.sting.compaq.com
you will need a good connection speed and shockwave/flash plugins to full
enjoy the site.
Thanks y'all
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:07:40 -0200
From: "Hugo Linares" <hlinares@utenet.com.ar>
Subject: RE: Joseph Jarman interview, Uri Caine article
>In the latest edition of Perfect Sound Forever online magazine
><http://www.furious.com/perfect>, you'll find (among other things):
>
>Uri Caine
>A pianist finds Gustav Mahler In Toblach
>http://www.furious.com/perfect/uricaine.html
>We're always looking for good material so let us know if you have any
>writing or ideas for upcoming issues.
>
>See you online,
>Jason
Hi,
Just to congratule Jason for this post that let me read a fine, wooly
article on pianist Uri Caine's latest cd by Zorn-lister Ken "most of the
times rather angry" Waxman.
Nice article and recommended to all members naturally.
Hasta luego,
Hugo Linares
>-
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 02:14:08 GMT
From: "Scott Handley" <c123018@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Rai Music
>From: Jason Tors <jtors@organic.com>
>Are there any jazz influenced groups out there working from a rai inspired
>format?
The only explicit example that comes to mind (and this isn't from a
rai-savvy ear) is the Ned Rothenberg Double Group's "Rai Hop," a track on
one of the Live at the Knitting Factory albums. In fact, I only vaguely
remember hearing rai in it at all, but FWIW...
- ----s
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:20:24 -0500
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: Joseph Jarman interview, Uri Caine article
Hugo Linares wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just to congratule Jason for this post that let me read a fine, wooly
> article on pianist Uri Caine's latest cd by Zorn-lister Ken "most of the
> times rather angry" Waxman.
>
Just to stick up for Ken here (jeez, I never thought I'd be struck by
such an urge)--I have never, in the short time I've known Ken, seen him
angry.
He is quite religious though. His religion is free jazz, and he does
not take kindly to heterodoxy.
Happy Chanukkah one and all.
- --Mike
- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Broadcaster, Father, Farmer, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Sumo Nut, Bald Guy
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 08:30:29 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Bowie articles
Today's Village Voice contains a pretty good article on Lester by Gary
Giddins, as well as a number of reminiscences by fellow musicians.
Notable among the latter is Don Moye's refreshing, no bullshit peek
into the workaday lives of Bowie and friends.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:18:33 -0500
From: "Michael Berman" <mberman@his.com>
Subject: Re: Bowie articles
a link to the village voice article
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/9949/giddins.shtml
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:40:24 -0800
From: Jason Tors <jtors@organic.com>
Subject: bowie
any suggestions as to where to start in Lester Bowie's work?
Thanks!!
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:18:05 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <S.Wilkie@swansea.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Judaism and Africa
Hey, I'm about ten digests behind, and I couldn't comment on
Stefan's interesting post without giving it some serious thought, but
I do want to comment on the comparison between appealing to Jewish
roots and appealing to African roots. The big difference is that
"Africa" is not an African notion, but originally a European one:
Judaism is, on the contrary, a Jewish notion.
Sean
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 10:41:52 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Re: bowie
>any suggestions as to where to start in Lester Bowie's work?
Actually, aside from his early "Numbers 1 & 2" (currently only available, I
think, on the 5-cd box set from Nessa), I'm not overly fond of much of the
things put out under his own name, though I haven't heard the organ quartet that
Giddins raves about in the article. The Brass Fantasy releases can be fun but,
for me, wear out their welcome after a while. The double LP on ECM from around
1980, "All the Magic" has its moments, but never struck me as essential.
For primo Bowie, I'd stick with the classic AEC sides from 1968-74 (his playing
on "People in Sorrow" is incredible--I know, I know, it's impossible to
find...), plus some of the ECM issues, for example "Full Force" which has
Bowie's wonderful composition, "Charlie M".
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:02:24 -0800
From: "s~Z" <keithmar@jetlink.net>
Subject: Re: bowie
>any suggestions as to where to start in Lester Bowie's work?
While the early stuff and AEC are the best, The Great Pretender is a fun
listen.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:49:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: bowie
The recent American Gumbo release on 23 Jazz is a good cross section of
Lester's work from 1974-1975, which even includes his famous rendition of
"Hello Dolly" referred to by Giddins. The ECMs are more of
hits-and-misses, though some of the stuff on All The Magic and The Great
Pretender, especially "The Great Pretender" and "Howdy Doody Time" are
fun. It must have been hard to play trumpet with his tongue in his
cheek, though.
Ordinarily I wouldn't recommend an anthology (or much on ECM, come to
think of it), but Bowie's Works on that label contains some of his best
and most accessible work, including "Charlie M." his gutbucket tribute to
Mr. Ming, played by the AEOC.
Now we have to wait for BYG/America/Charly/who knows to reissue the
early in-Paris AEOC sessions. (And, on a side note, for 32 Jazz to
reissue those Atlantic Rufus Harley jazz bagpipe[!] LPs).
Ken Waxman
(who never thought he was "angry" just "passionate")
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:29:13 +0100
From: "Artur Nowak" <arno@emd.pl>
Subject: Misha Mengelberg?
Hi Philozorners,
Who's Misha Mengelberg? I have his two DIW records, both trios with
Joey Baron and Greg Cohen. I enjoy these records tremendously and
would like to listen to some more. I also noticed that Groud-Zero
"plays standard" by Misha (Where Is the Police?) and
Zorn/Frisell/Lewis play his tune on both "Lulu" records.
Take care
__________________________________________________________________
Artur Nowak [arno AT emd.pl]
www.emd.pl - Discography of Bill Frisell
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 14:10:50 -0500
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Re: Misha Mengelberg?
>Who's Misha Mengelberg? I have his two DIW records, both trios with
>Joey Baron and Greg Cohen. I enjoy these records tremendously and
>would like to listen to some more. I also noticed that Groud-Zero
>"plays standard" by Misha (Where Is the Police?) and
>Zorn/Frisell/Lewis play his tune on both "Lulu" records.
Artur--Mandatory reading: Kevin Whitehead's "New Dutch Swing", published a
couple of years ago. Gives in-depth history and analysis of Mengelberg and other
luminaries of the Dutch free jazz scene.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 11:19:54 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Misha Mengelberg?
On Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:29:13 +0100 "Artur Nowak" wrote:
>
> Who's Misha Mengelberg? I have his two DIW records, both trios with
> Joey Baron and Greg Cohen. I enjoy these records tremendously and
> would like to listen to some more. I also noticed that Groud-Zero
> "plays standard" by Misha (Where Is the Police?) and
> Zorn/Frisell/Lewis play his tune on both "Lulu" records.
Mengelberg is a Dutch composer and piano player who appears on the last
Eric Dolphy record (1964). Although involved with contemporary classical
music (was part of Fluxus, if I remember well (but who was not...)), he
is mainly known as a modern jazz player and improviser.
He founded the ICP (Instant Composer Pool) with Han Bennink and Willem
Breuker in 1967. Breuker left early, and Misha and Han have been running
the association/label since.
Besides a few records under his name, he is running the ICP orchestra
which has put out many jewels (unfortunately out of print). This band
has been constantly featuring the best of the improv Dutch scene.
I think he is one of the very rare musicians capable of putting humour in
music in a satisfactory way. He shares a lot with Monk: odd rhythms and a
strong melodic sense.
As you see, a musician that deserves to be known!
Patrice.
PS: BTW, he recently stopped smoking but intends to resume in 2022...
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:33:28 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Misha Mengelberg?
In a message dated 12/8/99 2:21:46 PM, proussel@ichips.intel.com writes:
<< he is running the ICP orchestra
which has put out many jewels (unfortunately out of print). >>
there's actually a few CDs of this band still in print on the ICP label, or
at least they're still listed in the last issue of Cadence
(www.cadencebuilding.com). also, there's a new recording by the ICP Orchestra
on hatOLOGY, Jubilee Varia, which is very good. and Misha has a brand-new 2
CD set, also on hatOLOGY, recorded recently with Chicago and other Dutch
musicians, that I haven't heard.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:19:36 -0500
From: "Michael Berman" <mberman@his.com>
Subject: freddie redd
all-
the jazziz article mentions zorn doing tribute to freddie redd. Is this =
an album or tune on a compilation....and where can i find it. =20
thanks=20
mike
Michael Berman
Berman Studios
www.his.com/mberman
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:34:57 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: freddie redd
In a message dated 12/8/99 3:22:42 PM, mberman@his.com writes:
<< the jazziz article mentions zorn doing tribute to freddie redd. Is this
an album or tune on a compilation >>
he does three Freddie Redd tunes on both News For Lulu and More News For Lulu
(both hat Art), which are out of print, but still available through Cadence
(www.cadencebuilding.com).
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 12:29:23 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: freddie redd
On Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:19:36 -0500 "Michael Berman" wrote:
>
> all-
> the jazziz article mentions zorn doing tribute to freddie redd. Is this an album or tune on a compilation....and where can i find
it.
As far as I know I can only see:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
060 - NEWS FOR LULU: John Zorn, George Lewis, Bill Frisell
1/ KD's Motion (Kenny Dorham) 3:32
2/ Funk In Deep Freeze (Hank Mobley) 4:31
3/ Melanie (Freddie Redd) 4:07
4/ Melody For C (Sonny Clark) 4:26
5/ Lotus Blossom (Kenny Dorham) 4:08
6/ Eastern Incident (Sonny Clark) 4:04
7/ Peckin' Time (Hank Mobley) 3:13
8/ Blues Blues Blues (Freddie Redd) 4:17
9/ Blue Minor take 1 (Sonny Clark) 3:43
10/ This I Dig Of You (Hank Mobley) 3:13
11/ Venita's Dance (Kenny Dorham) 3:23
12/ News For Lulu (Sonny Clark) 4:07
13/ Ole (Freddie Redd) 3:47
14/ Sonny's Crib (Sonny Clark) 5:22
15/ Hank's Other Tune (Hank Mobley) 3:52
16/ Blue Minor take 2 (Sonny Clark) 3:26
17/ Windmill (Kenny Dorham) 0:40
Recorded at Soundville Recording Studio Lucerne on August 30, 1987
18/ News For Lulu (Sonny Clark) 4:19
19/ Funk In Deep Freeze (Hank Mobley) 3:29
20/ Windmill (Kenny Dorham) 1:03
Recorded live at Jazzfestival Willisau on August 30, 1987
John Zorn: alto; George Lewis: trombone; Bill Frisell: guitar.
1988 - Hat Hut Records (Switzerland), hat Art CD 6005 (CD)
1993 - Hat Hut Records (Switzerland), hat Art CD 6005 (CD)
Note: the 1993 pressing has a different sleeve (in color and fairly similar
to the one of MORE NEWS FOR LULU (1992)).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #811
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