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Zorn List Digest       Monday, December 6 1999       Volume 02 : Number 810



In this issue:
-
       Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       Re: heads up -- more mp3s
       Report on the $4.99 Hat Arts
       Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       Re: Report on the $4.99 Hat Arts
       A Moment for Chicago's best
       For the List Admin
       Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       RE: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       DECEMBER Sale Items (updated)
       Re: sonic youth 20th century
       Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 16:53:55 -0500
From: Nils <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

in my mind there's two kinds of approaches to the definition of avant
garde.  let me lay em out for ya.

first, cutting edge. a lot of examples already mentioned.  something
new and different, which expands the musical universe.

or second, and more specifically, avant garde might refer to the
juxtaposition of jazz with other genres, or different styles of jazz
with each other.  this is essentially the postmodern ethos.  i think a
lot of people have trouble distinguishing free jazz from avant garde
jazz, and there's an obvious difference.  free jazz stays within its
own boundaries (as such).  avant garde leaps over boundaries and
brings disparate styles together.  admittedly it's a poor choice for
the concept, but we're somewhat stuck with it.

obviously there's avant garde classical, and avant garde woodworking,
and whatever.  but i would say definition #2 most closely relates to
what made zorn famous.  i'll stay out of the dispute over whether his
labels are avant garde.  because it depends a lot on your definition,
and if you use #1 it's false, but if you use #2 it's true.

nils

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 15:53:11 -0600
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: heads up -- more mp3s

Is there something wrong with my mp3 player, or are all these Naked City
clips roughly 15 seconds.
how would I get the full songs?
thanks
Nick McCormick

Benito Vergara wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> The anonymous poster on absm.bootlegs just posted 8 Naked City tracks --
> from a 1991 concert in Den Haag, or something like that.
>
> Later,
> Ben
>
> np: brian eno, "taking tiger mountain (by strategy)"
>
> http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
> ICQ# 12832406
>
> -

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:58:37 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Report on the $4.99 Hat Arts

I walked over the the Jazz Record Mart during lunch after seeing the Zornlist
posting on the cheap Hat Arts. They told me the phone's been ringing off the
hook, "because of something called the Zornlist." Just during the half hour I
was there, they took 5 calls, one from someone who said he saw something
about some cheap CDs on the zornlist, but he couldn't remember anything else
about them.

As of noon today, they still had all 40 or so titles in stock, but were
almost out of a few of the "name" titles, like one or two of the Lacys, and
the McPhee.

Their distributor was dumping all of these titles, and the JRM was told by
the distributer that all of these titles were now discontinued. And JRM took
all the distributor had to offer, so they don't expect any restocks.

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 14:03:09 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:52:25 EST  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Generally, though, I find avant-garde as a term to be as useless as
> 'classical,' 'jazz,' etc.  These are mainly useful for people to reference in
> the briefest of manners to music, but in the end are nothing more than that.
> Although musicians too often take these terms and use them as criteria with
> which they actually MAKE their music, and as a result their music never has
> hope for leaving their chosen arena.

I also find the term useless, but for different reasons. In the 50-60s, the
concept of avant-garde had a meaning since you could (almost) put all music
genres on a 1-dimension scale: from popular/entertainment on one edge, to
intellectual/avant-garde on the other. People listening to rock were not
offended if you told them that their music was not "sophisticated" or
"adventurous"; although jazz fans wanted their music to be put in a different
class than rock/popular, they didn't question the "supremacy" of contemporary
music and its supposed intellectual superiority. Nobody was questioning the
"fact" that contemporary composers were to music what particle physicists
were to physics: churning out wild theories in their laboratories, this for
the benefit of future generations (because the current ones could hardly get
it). It was not a time where anybody would have dared to question the system
(and specially intellectual trends). Avant-garde music was about the most
sophisticated sort: Stockhausen, Boulez, Berio, Kagel, Cage, Pousseur, Tudor,
etc. There is even a rumour according to which Boulez tried to create a
research laboratory at the Planck institute; Heisenberg was not impressed and
cancelled the project (maybe be why IRCAM...).

Things started to change in the 60's when jazz decided to be more that
entertainment music. Young composers from a jazz background started to write
"savant music" (Leo Smith, Braxton, etc). Then more experimental music came
out of the rock scene. At the same time (true or false), there was a growing
perception that classical contemporary music was in a dead end. After many
decades of serialism or chance based music, the rupture with the audience was
almost total (and unseen in music history). What used to be easy to classify
(what was avant and what was not), was not anymore. Classical contemporary
music lost its monopole of innovation (or people after so many years lost
patience), and avant-garde died in the process.

I think that the expression has completely lost its value.

    Patrice.

PS: during a recent concert, Bert Wilson told us about a remark made by a
person concerning his music:

    "Wow! You are playing modern jazz like in the old time."

I am wondering if we could not say the same with "avant-garde"...

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:36:46 -0500
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Report on the $4.99 Hat Arts

I emailed them this weekend, got the list, made my selections in an
email response with a note that I'd call them Monday with my Visa #,
they said it was cool, did so, and everything should be hunky dory
and on its way.

The guy (Steve) didn't say any of the titles I asked for (all the
Cage and Feldman stuff) were already sold out, so I'm assuming that
at least by Sunday they were still in stock. Dunno about today though.

At 16:58 -0500 12/6/99, [e-mail] wrote:
>I walked over the the Jazz Record Mart during lunch after seeing the Zornlist
>posting on the cheap Hat Arts. They told me the phone's been ringing off the
>hook, "because of something called the Zornlist." Just during the half hour I
>was there, they took 5 calls, one from someone who said he saw something
>about some cheap CDs on the zornlist, but he couldn't remember anything else
>about them.
>
>As of noon today, they still had all 40 or so titles in stock, but were
>almost out of a few of the "name" titles, like one or two of the Lacys, and
>the McPhee.
>
>Their distributor was dumping all of these titles, and the JRM was told by
>the distributer that all of these titles were now discontinued. And JRM took
>all the distributor had to offer, so they don't expect any restocks.
>
>Dave Royko
>
>-


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:05:58 -0600
From: King Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: A Moment for Chicago's best

Music lovers are now mourning the passage of chicago's Loung Ax,which will
be closing next month.....





























                                read icculus



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:22:39 -0600
From: King Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: For the List Admin

hey, could you please set up the list so that all the message's subject
lines start with [zorn], like they used to before you switched servers?
  I'm on a number of mailing list, and I often skip over things without
reading them.  The Zorn List postings are really valuable, and I like the
fact that they stick out in my In box.....





























                                read icculus



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:05:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

"Avant Garde" is a term like "Jazz" "Blues" "Pop" "Porn" that varies from
person to person. Think of it for some people Nirvana and Spyro Gyra are
Avant Garde and Playboy is pornography.

Today's avant garde can be tomorrow's pop and vice versa. Few people are
avant garde all their life. And most don't want to be. From what I can
see, because there are still so many people who refuse to acknowledge his
legitimacy, the only person to be part of the permanent avant garde is
Cecil Taylor. But because many other people do admire his advances, maybe
he isn't avant garde.

see the problem.

Ken Waxman

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:59:01 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

> BTW, Uri Caine is as pretty firmly ensconced in the jazz arena as Oscar
> Peterson, if you ask me.

Some of his major projects have revolved around Mahler and Wagner, and
exploring his Jewish side with people like Lorin Sklamberg and Aaron
Bensoussan. Do you really think he is "as firmly ensconced in the jazz
arena as Oscar Peterson"...?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:28:11 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

The way he plays, for me, makes the Mahler project a jazz album, with the
fact that its based on Mahler purely a formality.  He essentially turns them
in to vehicles to play over in his inimitably 'jazzy' way.  I'd be willing to
be bet that the Wagner album is the same idea.  I have not heard the project
based on Jewish themes.

I'm sorry if this makes people angry; it seems to me that many, many people
on this list like his albums, and I understand the reaction one has when
someone in a minority voices displeasure with an album that the majority
love.  I love lots of different kinds of music, just not anything I've heard
Uri do.

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:53:26 +1100
From: "Julian" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

> The way he plays, for me, makes the Mahler project a jazz album, with the

> fact that its based on Mahler purely a formality.  He essentially turns
them
> in to vehicles to play over in his inimitably 'jazzy' way.  I'd be
willing to
> be bet that the Wagner album is the same idea.  I have not heard the
project
> based on Jewish themes.
>
> I'm sorry if this makes people angry; it seems to me that many, many
people
> on this list like his albums, and I understand the reaction one has when
> someone in a minority voices displeasure with an album that the majority
> love.  I love lots of different kinds of music, just not anything I've
heard
> Uri do.

I'm sure not many people on this list would literally get angry if someone
didn't like something that they like. I do have to disagree with your
description of Caine's stuff however. There's not an enormous amount of
"jazz" on the Mahler album. In fact I can only think of two tracks off the
top of my head which are "jazzy" - there is a song which they do with a
latin feel, and the track with the name of the live album "I Went Out This
Morning..." is obviously a very jazzy reinterpretation. The best way I can
think of to describe the other stuff is "improvised classical music" - for
example, "Primal Light" (the track) in which Mark Feldman plays the vocal
line of the original, and eventually then moves into improvisation, while
the band plays a chamber version of the score, pretty true to the original.
Of course, I am listening to the album with a small knowledge of some of
the originals. If you don't know the originals, I guess you could be
forgiven for listening to it and hearing just a nice jazz album with a
focus on the piano. In my opinion, he's a pretty excellent jazz pianist
nonetheless, so I wouldn't complain.

Incidentally, the Wagner album is completely different to the Mahler - it
is rather a chamber group (strings, piano and accordion) playing miniature
versions of Wagner's large orchestral pieces.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:58:42 -0800
From: "Dave Egan" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

> The way he plays, for me, makes the Mahler project a jazz album,
> with the fact that its based on Mahler purely a formality.  He
> essentially turns them in to vehicles to play over in his
> inimitably 'jazzy' way.  I'd be willing to be bet that the
> Wagner album is the same idea.
Sorry to contradict, but I doubt you'd find the "Wagner E Venezia" CD very
jazzy.  It's a string quartet plus piano and accordion.  They play in what
might be called an updated classical style.  There's definitely some jazz
sensibility going on here - these are all big orchestral pieces transcribed
for the group from the sound of it.  They don't sound like note-for-note
transcriptions to me though.  Some of it sounds off-the-cuff to my ear.  I
really like this CD, just like the other Uri Caine discs I have.  It's great
fun to hear a little string quartet raging away on "Ride Of The Valkyries"
for example!

> I'm sorry if this makes people angry; it seems to me that many,
> many people on this list like his albums, and I understand the
> reaction one has when someone in a minority voices displeasure
> with an album that the majority love.  I love lots of different
> kinds of music, just not anything I've heard Uri do.
I guess I didn't catch the anger you're referring to.  I think of Uri as an
exceptionally musical pianist; not just a jazz pianist.

- - Dave


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:52:06 -0500
From: [e-mail] (Patrick Carey)
Subject: DECEMBER Sale Items (updated)

Hello ...

I have items FS by the following artists (and others)
at the URL at the bottom of this message.  Please check
out the list and email if anything interests you.

Arsenal, Ascension, (lots of) Aube, Babyland, Bernhard G=FCnter,
Bruce Gilbert, Delphium, DJ Spooky, Dumb Type, Jesus Lizard,
Jim O'Rourke, Hanatarash, Masonna, Moonshake, Pan Sonic,
Paul Kendall (Piquet), Robert Hampson, Splintered, Total

Thanks for looking,


- -Patrick
[e-mail]
[ http://www.astro.utoronto.ca/~carey/sofa/muse.html ]




- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:02:28 -0800
From: [e-mail] (John Burns)
Subject: Re: sonic youth 20th century

Hello.

[e-mail] mentioned Glenn Branca...any one else surprised
that he didn't make one of the four faces of the 20th century...
as I thought SY like Band of Susans, Larval and other fine bands
cut some of their teeth on his compositions...

I mean I know nothing could have been completist...and it was certainly
difficult choosing who to say goodbye with (to?). Still...was there a falling
out? Or are Branca's pieces too structured for this? Which leads to....

It was interesting to read [e-mail]'s note regarding
the adherence to score[s]....um, the Yoko Ono piece...that's just funny
to me. Accent on the "just." I do think many of the pieces come across
as free (and beautiful) improv, sort of like the breakdown bridges in
SY's rock "songs" but completely exploded out.

While I loved the Tenney piece, if its score is not much more than a
request for "a gradual swelling and a dying away" then could a balloon
perform that satisfactorily.

Ultimately I fear this, (like a lot of the posts I start but rarely
submit here and elsewhere) boils down to "I just like some order with
my chaos." Or construction with my deconstruction. Ad dualism nauseum.
Oh, and I'm a big fan of an author's intent. What s/he wanted to
communicate.

I guess I would have dug SY+JO+WW(!!!) takes on Messiaen, Part,
Gubaidulina, Adams, Berio.... Still so much respect goes to
a band that survivesapalooza to do this. And then there's
Ecstatic Peace/Smells Like Records and their commitmment to
diversity through other labels. Heroic.

Perhaps two non-subjective topics for discussion might be

  1) exploring the importance of the audience in modern music
        I think much more is expected from the audience say
        then with music that could be put on a player piano
        or meticulously captured in notation. Someone in the
        past mentioned the effect live improv had on their
        spouse when attending a show versus a pre-recorded listen.
  2) deploring(?) the presence of text in modern art (not just music
        plenty of stuff on walls too). I dig when Kim Gordon chimes
        in on a couple of pieces but I have to really force
        my attention to *not* narrow down on that. Is it frustration
        with non-verbal communication, or maybe just trying to
        expand folks like me who latch on text any text too much??

Ironically words fail me yet again, so that's all for now. I marvel
at others on this list with their quick and lucid responses.

Appreciatively,
  John

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:51:39 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

OK, I definitely made an assumption there with the Wagner album about knowing
nothing about it.  I thank those people who pointed that out to me in a
respectful manner.

The anger reference was partially anticipation of the way I've seen people on
lists act before, but also literal reaction to private emails received on the
subject.  The problem with the Mahler album also extended towards the premise
in general, as well as the realization (not just re the 'jazz' issue), which
seemed rather forced to me.  Jamming improvisational areas down the throats
of small excerpts of orchestral pieces just didn't work for me.  The
descriptions of the Wagner that I've heard sound actually similar in basic
concept to me.

I did hear a large chunk of the album, and I've heard various Mahler things
over the years, though much of he (Mahler)  frankly wasn't very memorable for
me either (and I guess didn't enjoy it enough to check it out in a deeper
way).  I could tell that they were basically just playing around with the
pieces on the CD, and I feel that this seems pretty apprent whether or not
the listener knows the Mahler stuff.  While the piece Julian describes that
features Mark Feldman is closer to actually transcending the ensemble that's
playing it, Mahler's original music seems superfluous to me here.

The pianist issue is just a matter of personal taste, I guess.

I hear he's doing an album of the Bach Golderg Variations, by the way.  (I'm
really not kidding)

cheers,

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #810
*******************************


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