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Zorn List Digest       Monday, December 6 1999       Volume 02 : Number 809



In this issue:
-
       RE: Haino Keiji
       heads up -- more mp3s
       Nothing Website Update
       Re: SY
       RE: Sonic Youth
       Re: I buy Spy vs. Spy
       Re: Don Ellis
       Thanks, List
       julius
       Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       the best band's better
       | listening at work |
       Re:  Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
       Re: Don Ellis
       Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:01:34 -0800
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Haino Keiji

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of The Hodgsons
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 2:43 PM

> I recently go Haino Keiji's 1998 AVANT release An Unclear Trial: More
> Than This with Joey Baron and Greg Cohen.  Needless to say I was quite
> impressed.  I was wondering if anyone on the mailing list could
> reccomend some other releases of his.

I once asked David Keffer the very same question -- the live Fushitsusha
records (particularly the double live ones on PSF) are the place to start.
Be warned, however, that "An Unclear Trial" is very different from Haino's
usual guitar freakouts / drone-and-groan fests. Perhaps the closest in sound
and mood to the lovely "An Unclear Trial" would be Fushitsusha's
"Allegorical Misunderstanding," also on Avant. (What was the FE blurb again?
"Haino in love?")

Later,
Ben

np: brian eno, "taking tiger mountain (by strategy)"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:01:23 -0800
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: heads up -- more mp3s

Folks,

The anonymous poster on absm.bootlegs just posted 8 Naked City tracks --
from a 1991 concert in Den Haag, or something like that.

Later,
Ben

np: brian eno, "taking tiger mountain (by strategy)"

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:09:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Jason Walton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Nothing Website Update

The Nothing website has been updated to include a few
new reviews and a very recent interview with Troniks
E-zine.

http://www.crionicmind.org/nothing




=====
Nothing
801 University Ave. S.E. #23
Minneapolis, MN 55414
[e-mail]
http://www.crionicmind.org/nothing
http://www.thais.it/eibon
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:11:56 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: SY

I saw SY play in NYC in June (I think it was then) with the NY Art Quartet.
They played a bunch of new instrumental compositions, plus a couple of
'covers,' including a piece by James Tenney, the name of which I forget.  I'd
guess it might be on the CD.  They also played a REALLY long, but good
improv, leading into Expressway to Yr Skull (or Madonna, Sean & me, if you
prefer)  They then played an instrumental version of Snare, Girl as an encore.

I like all the albums, but Experimental.. is my favorite.  All their stuff
seems the most concise to me on this album, neat weird little song-like
things.

There's a brand new Tower in Piladelphia, and I'm the jazz buyer.  This news
about an avant-garde section excites me greatly, though I haven't heard a
thing about it here.  Maybe I could work something out, if its at all
possible; I have no idea whether or not it would be yet, though.

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:10:42 -0800
From: "Benito Vergara" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Sonic Youth

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [e-mail]
> [mailto:[e-mail]]On Behalf Of [e-mail]
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 1:51 PM

> and Ben wrote
> <<But "John Cage" is already a household name!>>

> Maybe in your household, but not in most. Go somewhere other than
> a record
> store and ask ten people at random if they've heard of Cage. I would be
> surprised if you got even one yes most of the time.

Sorry -- I should have explained that further. One of the lawyers on "Ally
McBeal" is actually named John Cage.

But no, I don't really watch "Ally McBeal," I swear...

Later,
Ben

http://www.bigfoot.com/~bvergara/
ICQ# 12832406


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:08:19 +0100
From: "Thomas Queins" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: I buy Spy vs. Spy

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BF3FC9.702DF660
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hola,

Ti va un trade: "Spy vs.Spy" on Cd-R vs. some local ecuadorian stuff?=20

ciao from Italy

Thomas
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Diego Gruber=20
  To: Zorn list=20
  Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 12:02 AM
  Subject: I buy Spy vs. Spy


  Hi people,

  I need someone's help here, I live in Ecuador where it is almost
  impossible to get any recording by Zorn (not to mention other artists
  discussed on this list). So if someone would be kind enough to give me =
a
  hand: i'm looking for a copy of Spy vs. Spy, if someone has a used one
  in good condition and wants to get rid of it, or could get me a new =
one,
  i'm willing to prepay for the cd and postage.

  Thanks in advance,

  Diego



  -


- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BF3FC9.702DF660
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hola,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ti va un trade: "Spy vs.Spy" on =
Cd-R vs. some=20
local ecuadorian stuff? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ciao from Italy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thomas</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]" =
title=[e-mail]>Diego=20
  Gruber</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:[e-mail]"=20
  title=[e-mail]>Zorn list</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 06, 1999 =
12:02=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> I buy Spy vs. =
Spy</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Hi people,<BR><BR>I need someone's help here, I live in =
Ecuador=20
  where it is almost<BR>impossible to get any recording by Zorn (not to =
mention=20
  other artists<BR>discussed on this list). So if someone would be kind =
enough=20
  to give me a<BR>hand: i'm looking for a copy of Spy vs. Spy, if =
someone has a=20
  used one<BR>in good condition and wants to get rid of it, or could get =
me a=20
  new one,<BR>i'm willing to prepay for the cd and =
postage.<BR><BR>Thanks in=20
  advance,<BR><BR>Diego<BR><BR><BR><BR>-<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BF3FC9.702DF660--


- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 10:28:32 CET
From: "Andreas Dietz" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Don Ellis

>From: [e-mail]
>Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:19:53 EST
>
>One of the best lines I ever heard about Ellis' compositions was that "the
>only thing he ever played in 4/4 time was Brubeck's 'Take 5'"
>
>=dg=
>

'Take 5' is a Paul Desmond composition...

Andreas Dietz

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:39:53 +0100
From: Stephen Fruitman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Thanks, List

A word of thanks to everybody who supplied information and comments about
Don Ellis. My friend was mighty pleased. Stephen



- ------------------

Bj=F6rn Olsson,
Inst. f=F6r id=E9historia,
Ume=E5 universitet
901 87 Ume=E5
tel. [phone] fax 143374
e-post: [e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 11:58:20 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: julius

Since I would hate to feel like I started something, let me retract my previous
post. While I had heard from a usually reliable source that homophobia was
behind Julius Hemphill's being voted out of WSQ, I've never in the years since
his death heard anything else to confirm that. I posted that here thinking that
if there was anything to it, somebody would bave confirmed it. Since nobody did,
I'm convinced my friend was mistaken. Besides, it really doesn't matter anyway.
If a group wants to vote out its founder so that they can plummet toward earth
releasing recordings and doing performances that are, by and large, shadows of
the work the group is built on, that's their business. The reasons, I think, are
incidental.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 12:23:53 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

Was talking to Tom Pratt recently and he pointed out that no one has responded
to Jon Abbey's post about Tzakik and Avant not being especially avant garde.
Well, I tried, but deleted my attempt when I realized it didn't make any sense.
(I know, I know, since when does that stop me?) But it is a major claim he made,
and one that should have been taken up. (I deleted my response waiting to see
what others had to say -- maybe that's what everyone did.) So, without knowing
what I think as per the Zornlabel titles, I'll try and prod this along alittle.

"Avant Garde" is not really a term I use. No real reason, we just all have our
preferences for how to label the essentially undefinable. "Improv" "Outside" and
"Experimental" have always covered the bases for me fairly well. (I actually
have one Big Theory which postulates that there's only three kinds of music, but
now's not the time.)  The dictionary I'm looking at defines the term is "those
esp. in the arts who create or apply new or experimental ideas and techniques."
That would suggest that the creator, and not the work, is avant garde, which is
silly. I'm sure there are better definitions around, but this is a useful
starting point.

So let's say there's 2 ways to be a-g: by applying a) new or b) experimental
techniques. Good enough. First one first. I don't often here new techniques on
Zornlabel releases. One of the few that comes to mind is the Makigami Koichi and
Anton Bruchen (pardon the possible spelling mistakes) disc "Electric Eel." I
believe jaw harps were created just for that work. Maybe Yasaone Tone's wounded
cd release as well. But guitars and saxophones wouldn't seem to fill the bill.

The second, 'experimental,' is less clear, but would seem to apply to many (but
not all) releases. While Ikue Mori (and why is it the Japanese names that keep
coming up?) isn't using any newly developed technologies, I think the way she
uses it shows experimentation in coming up with a new style. (Tricky ground,
though, since Mick and Keith no doubt experiment with different ideas for new
songs as well.) Something like Museum of Dannys I wouldn't call "experimental"
(although I'm sure there are those who would use that label or "avant garde" for
anything they consider odd).

What "avant garde" evokes to me is 'cutting edge,' which I don't think many of
the Zornlabel releases really are. They tend to be heavy interpretations of
familiar forms, which tends to be what I like I guess. While I like going into
the utterly unfamiliar, I don't go there as often (and I feel a little
embarassed having admitted it for some reason). I pick up some of Otomo's sound
sculpture/sine wave things (like ISO or Vinyl Tranquilizer, are those a-g enuff
for you, Jon?), but I came to Otomo through Optical*8 and stuff like "We
Insist?" and still prefer those.

I guess I've convinced myself that I agree with Jon -- Zornlabel releases aren't
especially avant garde. And maybe neither am I. Is this grist enough for the
mill?



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 12:26:24 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: the best band's better

The addition of Bryan Carrott this weekend to the already great Make a Move was
phenomenal. With Threadgill without a contract, I hope that somehow this is a
permanent or at least a documented addition.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:47:45 -0800
From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: | listening at work |

http://www.jazze.com/jukebox/box_options.cfm

the site is not bad either.

If you have a fast connection this is a blast!

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 06 Dec 99 13:07:43 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

Forwarded with Velaires' blessings:
_______________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re:  Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?
From:    <[e-mail]> at INTERNET-MAIL
Date:    12/6/99  12:39 PM


In a message dated 12/6/99 9:24:38 AM, you wrote:

<<So let's say there's 2 ways to be a-g: by applying a) new or b) experimental

techniques. Good enough.

You mean like the polyrhythmic vocal bass line on a doo-wop record like "Can
I Come Over Tonight" by the Velours? Or by the use of parellel perfect fouths
in a doo-wop record like "This Paradise" by Donald Woods and the Velaires?
How 'bout the world's earliest fuzztone, "Fat Boy Rag" by Bob Wills' Texas
Playboys? Employment of a new or experimental technique won't get your record
reclassified.  And before you remark that these records are too obscure to
warrant rethinking among anyone but the zealous, let's remember that Mark
Feldman's MUSIC FOR VIOLIN ALONE isn't going platinum (inspiring tho it may
be).


The second, 'experimental,' is less clear, but would seem to apply to many
(but

not all) releases. While Ikue Mori (and why is it the Japanese names that keep

coming up?) isn't using any newly developed technologies, I think the way she

uses it shows experimentation in coming up with a new style. (Tricky ground,

though, since Mick and Keith no doubt experiment with different ideas for new

songs as well.) Something like Museum of Dannys I wouldn't call "experimental"

(although I'm sure there are those who would use that label or "avant garde"
for

anything they consider odd).

Is something truly experimental just because it's based on the employment of
new technologies? I then nominate Johnny "Guitar" Watson's 1953 "Space
Guitar", which was probably the first record where they turn the reverb way
up or way down at different places in the performance.


What "avant garde" evokes to me is 'cutting edge,' which I don't think many of

the Zornlabel releases really are.

One man's cutting edge is another man's yawn.  I know people who think what
Uri Caine does falls squarely into the category of "jazz piano" -- along with
Oscar Peterson.

They tend to be heavy interpretations of familiar forms, which tends to be
what I like I guess.

Form is there for a reason, and digression/reinterpretation of an existing
form can, in the right hands, lead to new perceptions of stuff we thought we
knew inside-out.

While I like going into the utterly unfamiliar, I don't go there as often
(and I feel a little embarassed having admitted it for some reason).

Don't be.  Just because something is new to you doesn't automatically make it
challenging.  While I love what Zorn does -- and how and why Zorn does -- I
haven't liked everything he's made.  SPY VS SPY was a new take on music I
knew, but, after the aggression of the performances established itself, it
wasn't very challenging for me.  And I come from the world of punk rock at
least as much as the worlds of jazz and new music.

In short, these categories don't exist in music, only in places where they
need to put records in a certain order.  More experimentation went into many
of these 1950s rhythm'n'blues singles than in a month at the Knit, but, face
it, nobody is going to reclassify that music according to its level of
brevity.  Just as nobody's going to make a separate divider card for the
Sonny Clark Memorial Society record in light of its concentration on swinging
rather than skronking.

best--
skip heller

________________________________________________________________________________

and this without his say-so...

among rhythm'n'blues people of the fifties, Johnny Guitar Watson was
considered probably the most advanced musician in that genre.  Frank Zappa
considered JGW's fifties guitar solos to be some of the most interesting
musical statements he ever heard.  I agree.  While rhythm'n'blues is
symmetrical music, JGW's solos are just these attack-bursts with no regard
for bar-lines or any other logic other than "This is how I play.  if you
don't like it, blow it out you *&%!", which is as brave and defiant a musical
statement as any made by a lot of people with academically-induced theories
and philsophies.  And, unlike adademically-sanctioned avant-garde-isms, you
can get laid playing the stuff in a bar.

To me, rhythm'n'blues the perfect uncompromising populist avant-garde.  Yes,
the rhythmic content is definitely regulated, but the stuff that goes on top
is so often right out there -- re: "Open Seame" by Kool and the Gang, "Mango
Meat" by Mandrill, any JGW record with a guitar solo, and a lot of those
honking/squealing tenor saxophone instrumentals fr the 50s by Big Jay McNeely
or Joe Houston.

As ever-
skip h





- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:10:44 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Don Ellis

In a message dated 12/6/99 4:31:02 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<< >From: [e-mail]
 >Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:19:53 EST
 >
 >One of the best lines I ever heard about Ellis' compositions was that "the
 >only thing he ever played in 4/4 time was Brubeck's 'Take 5'"
 >
 >=dg=
 >

 'Take 5' is a Paul Desmond composition...
  >>

Thanks for the correction.  That's what I get for not checking.

=dg=

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:52:25 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Who put the Avant in Avant Garde?

My guess is that the recordings on Tzadik and Avant are mostly the stuff that
Zorn likes, with 'avant-garde' hardly being any sort of criteria, though many
things on those labels do 'qualify' either directly or indirectly.

Generally, though, I find avant-garde as a term to be as useless as
'classical,' 'jazz,' etc.  These are mainly useful for people to reference in
the briefest of manners to music, but in the end are nothing more than that.
Although musicians too often take these terms and use them as criteria with
which they actually MAKE their music, and as a result their music never has
hope for leaving their chosen arena.

BTW, Uri Caine is as pretty firmly ensconced in the jazz arena as Oscar
Peterson, if you ask me.

matt mitchell

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #809
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