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Zorn List Digest       Sunday, November 28 1999       Volume 02 : Number 800



In this issue:
-
       The Herbie Nichols Project
       Re: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way
       Re: Shannon Jackson in KF catalogue
       PainKiller/Golden Palominos/ Last Exit mp3s
       Re: PSF/DIW/etc.
       Re: PainKiller/Golden Palominos/ Last Exit mp3s
       Re: PSF/DIW/etc
       Re: Zorn Interview...come read, everyone!
       Re: Zorn Interview...come read, everyone!
       Orthodox(ies) contra Radical Jewish Culture
       _Kol Nidre_ Score
       Jazziz Article
       oops
       fiona apple
       Ponga tracks
       Re: fiona apple

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 99 17:38:20 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: The Herbie Nichols Project

Pianist Frank Kimbrough, bassist Ben Allison, trumpeter Ron Horton, drummer Tim
Horner and saxophonists Ted Nash and Michael Blake have two records out as 'The
Herbie Nichols Project.' Is this the Lounge Lizard Slow Poke Blake? The group
apparently has two discs out on Soul Note of Nichols' music. Anyone heard those?
I am interested in Nichols' compositions (and I believe the Blue Note box set
made one of JZ's long lost top 10 lists).

Nichols and the new group are both mentioned in an article in Newsday by Gene
Seymour, who is one of the better music writers around (although his daily paper
stuff doesn't really compare to the long essays he used to do for The Nation.
Email me and I'll send you a copy of his article.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:05:17 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: RADICAL jewish culture.... no way

      I'm a bit confused. In 20 years of following Zorn, I cant
remember him ever speaking to, or about, Orthodox Judaism. (Certainly
his use  of "colorful" language, and his openness to interracial
relationships wouldn't make him very popular among the orthodox Jews
that I know)  Furthermore, I cant see a reason anyone would draw
parallels between the orthodoxy of any religion and someone who
chooses to identify  with, or even exploit, their own cultural
heritage(radical or not).
    Clearly though, Stefan has a bee in his bonnet, lets hope
he's not stung by it.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 16:14:38 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Shannon Jackson in KF catalogue

- --============_-1268463029==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

>could Lang Thompson let us know the titles of the RSJ albums
>available?
>
>Sean Wilkie


Ronald Shannon Jackson and the Decoding Society
When Colors Play

Ronald Shannon Jackson
Texas

Ronald Shannon Jackson
Live At The Caravan Of Dreams

Ronald Shannon Jackson and the Decoding Society
Live At Greenwich House

Ronald Shannon Jackson & The Original Decoding Society
Montreaux Jazz Festival

Ronald Shannon Jackson
Pulse

Ronald Shannon Jackson
Mental Holiday

Ronald Shannon Jackson
Koln Concert Live


or go to
www.knittingfactory.com/kfr/index_new.cfm

PS, When I ordered these a few days ago
I was e-mailed back and told they wont be ready till the middle of december
also note that the price listed for the Wildflowers multi-disc set is
wrong, its $30 not $12

- --============_-1268463029==_ma============
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

<excerpt>could Lang Thompson let us know the titles of the RSJ albums

available?


Sean Wilkie

</excerpt>


<fontfamily><param>Verdana</param><smaller><smaller><smaller><smaller>Ronald
Shannon Jackson and the Decoding Society

<bold>When Colors Play


</bold>Ronald Shannon Jackson

<bold>Texas


</bold>Ronald Shannon Jackson

<bold>Live At The Caravan Of Dreams


</bold>Ronald Shannon Jackson and the Decoding Society

<bold>Live At Greenwich House


</bold>Ronald Shannon Jackson & The Original Decoding Society

<bold>Montreaux Jazz Festival


</bold>Ronald Shannon Jackson

<bold>Pulse


</bold>Ronald Shannon Jackson

<bold>Mental Holiday


</bold>Ronald Shannon Jackson

<bold>Koln Concert Live



</bold></smaller></smaller></smaller></smaller></fontfamily>or go to

www.knittingfactory.com/kfr/index_new.cfm


PS, When I ordered these a few days ago

I was e-mailed back and told they wont be ready till the middle of
december

also note that the price listed for the Wildflowers multi-disc set is
wrong, its $30 not $12

- --============_-1268463029==_ma============--

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:17:32 -0600
From: "Christopher Lupold" <[e-mail]>
Subject: PainKiller/Golden Palominos/ Last Exit mp3s

  There are some great live mp3s being posted to the
alt.binaries.sounds.mp3.bootlegs newsgroup, including 70 min. of PainKiller
in Germany from '96, an early Palominos concert, and Last Exit from '86 in
Frankfurt. There are also some Praxis, Material, and Defunkt concerts. If
you haven't heard any of these, get on over to the newsgroup ASAP, because
they're bound to disappear from there soon. Speaking of which, I couldn't
get track 6 or 7 of the Last Exit concert - if anyone on the list was able
to download these intact, please e-mail me. For that matter, is someone on
this list the one posting all this music? Didn't think of that.......
- -CLupold


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 20:27:35 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: PSF/DIW/etc.

In a message dated 11/25/99 1:28:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, [e-mail]
writes:

<< I'd like to check out some of the Japanese improv/psych stuff on
PSF/DIW/etc..
 Only, I have very little idea where to start. I've heard the names Taj Mahal
 Travelers and Kaoru Abe, and I think that's the direction I'd like to head
into.
 Help. Please. >>

Suprised no one has mentioned the PSF sampler CDs.  There's 4 or 5 of them
now- all rather inexpensive, and I believe they're all still available.

=dg=

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 21:10:10 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: PainKiller/Golden Palominos/ Last Exit mp3s

In a message dated 11/26/99 7:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[e-mail] writes:

<<   There are some great live mp3s being posted to the
 alt.binaries.sounds.mp3.bootlegs newsgroup, including 70 min. of PainKiller
 in Germany from '96, an early Palominos concert, and Last Exit from '86 in
 Frankfurt. >>

And how exactly do we get to these?

Thanks!

Dale.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 21:20:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: PSF/DIW/etc

- --- [e-mail] wrote:
>
> Tom's a bigger fan of Kosugi's solo work than
> myself. I find both the P-Vine CD and the solo one
> on Lovely a bit on the dry side, although, to be
> fair, I've only heard the P-Vine one once.

I can agree that the Lovely solo is a little dry, but
I think the one on P-Vine is really beautiful.

It's worth pointing out that these two albums span an
entire decade in which Kosugi's playing style changed
drastically, so while the P-Vine solo (from '80) is
very raw and abrasive, the Lovely solo ('89) is much
more melodic and clean.

There are also two very rare and un-reissued solo
Kosugi LPs that I'm dying to hear: 'Catch Wave' (Sony,
1975, Japan) and 'Violin Solo' (Bellows Records, 1980,
UK). If anyone has or has access to these records,
please get in touch.

> another great CD, although it's probably impossible
> to find now, is the Group Ongaku (HEAR sound art
> library), in which Kosugi and friends anticipate
> AMM's abstract collective style with recordings made
> in '60 and '61.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about this one. Definitely a
great disc. It's unbelievable how early this stuff was
happening, predates the whole entire Euro improv
scene. For anyone looking to track down a copy, Other
Music has some (and they do mail-order).

       -Tom Pratt
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 21:03:44 -0600
From: King Wilson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn Interview...come read, everyone!

>http://www.jazziz.com/John_Zorn.html
>


  Anyone else having a problem finding this link?





























                                read icculus



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:16:02 -0500
From: "H. Figurine" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn Interview...come read, everyone!

>>http://www.jazziz.com/John_Zorn.html
>  Anyone else having a problem finding this link?


did you try
http://www.jazziz.com/current/pages/feature/John_Zorn.html

out
  H


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:46:56 +0100
From: Stephen Fruitman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Orthodox(ies) contra Radical Jewish Culture

Stefan Verstraeten -

=46irst of all, let=B4s get the "antisemite" bugaboo out of the way before w=
e
embark on a serious discussion. I hardly think you harbour antisemitic or,
even more absurd, Nazi sympathies. However, some good advice if you want to
avoid the issue from coming up at all: _Never_ preface your argument with
"Some of my best friends are....". That=B4s almost always apprehended as
camouflage for racist remarks. Also, a line like "I do not want to say that
everything that is Jewish is evil" is definitely very ill-considered.

You are wading into some deep waters without your waterwings when you
characterize something as multifarious as "Orthodox Jewish culture" as
monolithic. "Orthodox" Jewish culture has as many faces as, well, Belgien
or any other culture. There are modern Orthodox, ultra Orthodox, Hasids
(mystics who are also split into sundry sects), fundamentalist settlers on
the West Bank for whom the Land itself has become its God, fundamentalist
Messianics who want nothing less than the _destruction_ of the State of
Israel (since it is the work of man and not God and thus is an obstacle to
salvation) - all of whose communities (not to mention individual members)
have worldviews as varying as any other group=B4s. It is also worth
mentioning here that all of the groups we might characterize as "Orthodox"
of one stripe or another make up a very small minority within world Jewry.

While I know nothing about the movie which sparked off your thinking, it is
also very important to bear in mind that in Judaism, whatever its shade,
there is no ultimate authority (unlike e.g. the Catholic pope, whose word
is law). Check out the Talmud and you find dozens of opinions on the same
issue strewn over a thousand years of time, many of them at variance with
one another - some are surprisingly modern, others shockingly primitive.
It=B4s up to each individual Jew to decide what advice to follow. It may see=
m
banal, but think of the fictional  Tevye from _Fiddler on the Roof_; he is
an Orthodox man who realizes, after "discussing" matters with his God (i.e.
reflecting on his own personal interpretation of his religion) that he must
let go of his daughter, who has chosen to marry outside of the faith
altogether, because it is in her best interests. The position of women in
general within orthodox religious communities throughout time has always
been subordinate and is an aspect of world heritage in need of drastic
repair. The Orthodox Jews are no exception, but among them today, there can
even be found scores of modern feminists, who wish to reinterpret the
patriarchy=B4s interpretations of Judaism - while remaining "strictly kosher=
".

You also bring up the old "eye for an eye" canard; in much anti-Jewish
Christian thinking, this has been interpreted literally as evidence of the
Jews=B4 bloodlust. In most Jewish thinking, ancient and modern alike, it has
been interpreted as a metaphor for social justice, i.e. a rich man who can
afford to buy his way out of a lawsuit should be treated the same as a poor
man who lacks the means to do so - in other words, everyone is equal in the
eyes of the Law, the loss of a rich man=B4s eye is to be dealt with in the
same way as a poor man=B4s, social status has no effect on the pursuit of
justice. The first real utterings of democracy in the known world.

Which is not to say that there aren=B4t fundamentalist, Orthodox groups in
Israel, Brooklyn, Antwerp and elsewhere who do choose a more "primitive"
interpretation of the Word and the Law; at the same time, there are entire
groups of ultra-Orthodox in Israel, for example, who want to return all of
the occupied territories to the Palestinians on the basis of the Biblical
ruling that saving a life is the ultimate commandment; i.e., if fighting
over land causes people to die, then the land should be sacrificed to save
lives. There is an Orthodox rabbi from Montreal, David Hartman, who has set
up an institute in Jerusalem to modernize Orthodoxy (with some success) and
who regularly conducts meetings with other orthodox religious leaders in
order to try and solve political and social problems in the Middle East;
unfortunately, while many Christians regularly attend, Muslim leaders have
so far refused to heed his invitations. I could also provide a list of
left-wing Orthodox rabbis and their followers who, when you hear their
words without seeing their faces, you=B4d think were Martin Luther King or
Gandhi. Or a certain "Orthodox" rabbi named Jesus whose main message, "do
unto others as you would have them do unto you", is a direct quote from the
teachings of his master, the "Orthodox" rabbi Hillel.

Now, all this is aside from the question of what Orthodoxy Judaism has to
do with the music released under Tzadik=B4s "Radical Jewish Culture"
monicker. As someone else has already pointed out, where exactly has John
Zorn (or anyone on this list) actually singled out _Orthodox_ culture for
praise? Your examples from Antwerp are most definitely _not_ "radical"
Jewish culture, since the very word radical is synonymous with
"revolutionary". Without being privvy to the artist=B4s innermost thoughts,
it seems to me that what Zorn instead is doing is borrowing attributes from
_traditional_ Jewish culture (the images, the prayer groups, the prayer
shawls, the Hebrew titles and so forth) as indicators of the indigenous
_folk_ culture he wishes to acknowledge and (here=B4s the key word)
_radicalize_, in the wake of his mentor, Ahad Ha-am=B4s, ideas: Take the
essence of tradition, shed that which is no longer viable, and instill it
with the new. "Radical" and "Orthodox" are each other=B4s contradictions. Wh=
y
should we be surprised if an Orthodox counsel in Antwerp considers Zorn
"un-Jewish"? When did _any_ establishment group ever embrace radical art?

And what single group or individual has the right to decide what is Jewish
and what is not for the rest of us? Jewish culture is a hard nut to crack,
just like Jewish identity. It cannot be compared with other identities - is
it a religion, an ethnic group, an aesthetic culture, an identity, all of
the above/none of the above? For me, a secular Jew, Jewish culture is
everything from John Zorn and Seinfeld and Woody Allen to the Torah, the
Talmud, the sabbath and yes, the settlers on the West Bank. But that
doesn=B4t mean I have to _approve_ of that with which I cannot condone, or
which I find contradictory to the true spirit of the culture as expressed
in its traditions. Instead, it is my duty to struggle for change, hopefully
through thoughtful argument, not outright condemnation.

Stephen Fruitman




- ---------------------------------

Bj=F6rn Olsson,
Inst. f=F6r id=E9historia,
Ume=E5 universitet
901 87 Ume=E5
tel. [phone] fax 143374
e-post: [e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:25:35 +0100
From: Stephen Fruitman <[e-mail]>
Subject: _Kol Nidre_ Score

Anyone know where I can get ahold of the score to the string quartet _Kol
Nidre_ by Mr. Zorn? Stephen




- ------------------

Bj=F6rn Olsson,
Inst. f=F6r id=E9historia,
Ume=E5 universitet
901 87 Ume=E5
tel. [phone] fax 143374
e-post: [e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 13:40:01 +0100
From: Stephen Fruitman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Jazziz Article

What is the precis date and number of the Jazziz issue featuring the Zorn
interview? I can=B4t seem to get that info from the website. Stephen




- ----------------

Bj=F6rn Olsson,
Inst. f=F6r id=E9historia,
Ume=E5 universitet
901 87 Ume=E5
tel. [phone] fax 143374
e-post: [e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 99 10:41:14 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: oops

mental hiccup. gene seymour was a friend of my father's when i was a child.
haven't thought of him in years. the newsday/nation writer gene santoro is far
more relevant to discussion on this list. funny, that.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:15:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Theo Klaase <[e-mail]>
Subject: fiona apple

    My girlfriend bought the latest Fiona Apple CD and
Greg Cohen is featured on one of the songs, along with
Jim Keltner... Just an interesting fact....

=====
- -That which is Theodorus...    "The way to see by faith is to shut theeye of reason."   www.freeyellow.com/members7/theodorus/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:06:24 -0200
From: "Hugo Linares" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Ponga tracks

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF39C2.E6FDE1E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Zornies!
=20
I wonder if anyone on this List can give me the full list of tracks on =
the first Ponga cd; I own the cd but the titles are really illegible.
=20
Any help please?
=20
Thanks in advance,
=20
Hugo

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF39C2.E6FDE1E0
Content-Type: text/html;
    charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi Zornies!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I wonder if anyone on this List can =
give me the=20
full list of tracks on the first Ponga cd; I own the cd but the titles =
are=20
really illegible.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Any help please?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks in advance,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hugo</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF39C2.E6FDE1E0--


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:06:43 GMT
From: "Scott Handley" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: fiona apple

As well as---on the lead single, no less!---Matt Chamberlain, drummer for
Critters Buggin, who have a saxophonist in common with Ponga, featuring
Wayne Horvitz, who played in Naked City, with JZ....wow!  Four dgrees of
separation between Zorn and Fiona Apple.  Yes, it is a small world.  And a
mad mad mad mad


>     My girlfriend bought the latest Fiona Apple CD and
>Greg Cohen is featured on one of the songs, along with
>Jim Keltner... Just an interesting fact....

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #800
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