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Zorn List Digest       Saturday, October 9 1999       Volume 02 : Number 771



In this issue:
-
       Knit Webcasts?
       Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #766
       illusion of safety
       tired of what the times thinks, but...
       NYT started it....
       Re: noise annoys
       SAL SALVADOR
       Re: illusion of safety
       unintentional irony
       Re: illusion of safety
       Re: noise annoys
       Re: illusion of safety
       more signs of the Times
       Re: illusion of safety
       noise etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:28:04 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Knit Webcasts?

I see that the Knit is ostensibly Webcasting a Tacuma-Ribot-Zorn gig
tonight. However, it's been months since I've actually found them to
be Webcasting any even that I've tuned in for.

Have they given up on Webcasting live entirely, or am I just having
incredibly bad luck catching them? Is it worth planning to be home to
hear this? *sigh*

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:47:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Whit Schonbein <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #766

On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Zorn List Digest wrote:
> 1.torture garden
> 2.Grand guignol
> 3.Absinth
> 4.Radio
> 5.Heretic
> and I rate them this way 4.,5.,2.,1.,3,

my ranking, fwiw: 4 (radio - favourite), 2 (first 1/2), 5 (rewards
multiple listens - sounds like a series of free improvs with various
combinations of the band members), 1 & 2 (second 1/2 of 2; there is a lot
of
overlap with torture garden and grand guignol; the latter has many of the
same songs as the former (perhaps even the same recordings - torture
garden is on shimmy disc, not avant); torture garden is also only
30-something minutes long; grand guignol is closer to an hour or 70min),
3 (absinthe - not sure it's my least favourite, just the least listened
to - as nick said, it's ambient noises/drones).

cheers,
whit


- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Oct 99 17:21:53 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: illusion of safety

riding the crest of the noise comments. interesting stuff. for me, i think i'm
beginning to understand what eno meant by music as wallpaper. i used to always
think it was just facetious, but now i get it (even if merzbow ain't the sort of
wall covering eno'd be interested in -- i'm not sure).

meanwhile, i'm wondering what anyone might teach me about illusion of safety.
jim o'rourke was involved at some point, yes? i got 'bad karma' and listened to
it once. i'll listen once more, and that might be all i can take. i was already
in a bad mood when i spun it first (plus i was reading the new acme comics,
double downer fun), so maybe i overreacted. learn me please.

kg



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 Oct 99 19:39:18 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: tired of what the times thinks, but...

Scott, your comments are interesting, and I basically agree. What you might have
missed is that I said "the piece seems to say." I wouldn't put unique strictures
on Jewish artists (although some cultures contain histories which can be
dramatically used if an artist so chooses). The Times piece seems to want to
hold Zorn responsible for something more than an African American playing
klezmer, a Polish Jew playing son or the son of an American missionary
appropriating samba. Zorn, because his background matches his stylings, is
deemed kitschier than Don Byron holding a rubber chicken.

np: The Jam "Start!"

>From: [e-mail]

other folks can dabble in
>whatever ethnic musics they want, the piece seems to say, but Jews have a
>special obligation to represent their own culture in a certain way -- even
>if
>that way is never stated

Kurt, pardon if I took your comments out of context, or missed something,
but what makes you think this?



- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 12:45:41 -0500
From: Mark Corroto <[e-mail]>
Subject: NYT started it....

At the risk of assasination and censure:

My wife made an astute observation regarding the Times piece

Zorn's career is tracking the same path as Spike Lee's

preaching to the converted is boring

enlightening the uninformed is much more interesting


Sure the biography of MAlcolm X had to be made into a movie
As a book it moved me, as a film it bored the shit outta me
But Spike has a mission not to entertain but to hold up an entire people



Is Zorn pushing himself into being a LEADER OF HIS PEOPLE?
Do you want to be led?
Who are his people?

Did John Coltrane approach music like this?

I don't think so....







- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:35:34 -0400
From: Matthew Ross Davis <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: noise annoys

> wondering is, can anyone out there put their noise aesthetic into words. i
> can't, and i'm curious.

Though I don't listen to "noise bands", I think I might be able to comment at
least a bit on noise aesthetic. Mine, I believe, comes from a desire to enjoy
the sound simply as it exists - the "noise"-like pieces to which I have enjoyed
listening often contain an extremely interesting conglomeration of sounds which
both tug and divide my sonic attention and ultimately challenge my sonic
comprehension, which is something I love.

I will put on a disclaimer here, however - one reason I don't think I enjoy
"noise bands" as much as other "noise" types of things (John Cage's "Cartridge
Music" or Zorn's wind machine thingy, whatever the title of that is) is a matter
of amplitude - interesting conglomerations of sound and noise don't need to be
loud to be engaging, and in fact sometimes become more unintelligible with
increasing amplitude. But maybe that's a different aesthetic altogether.

- --
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/Matthew Ross Davis|||
|||||||||||||||||||||artswire.org/mrd|||||||||||||||||||
|||||||||||||||metatronpress.com/mp3||||||||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||||||||||||mp3.com/mrd|||||||||||||||||||||

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:45:27 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: SAL SALVADOR

BEBOP GUITARIST, JAZZ EDUCATOR SAL SALVADOR DIES AT
73

Sal Salvador, the guitarist whose over 50-year career
included important stints with Stan Kenton, as well as
important university music posts, died Sept. 22.

- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 19:51:44 -0500
From: Craig Rath <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: illusion of safety

At 05:21 PM 10/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>meanwhile, i'm wondering what anyone might teach me about illusion of safety.
>jim o'rourke was involved at some point, yes? i got 'bad karma' and
listened to
>it once. i'll listen once more, and that might be all i can take. i was
already
>in a bad mood when i spun it first (plus i was reading the new acme comics,
>double downer fun), so maybe i overreacted. learn me please.
>

I also picked up Bad Karma and haven't quite been able to get into it, but
the rest of the stuff I've gotten by them has been great, and I'll probably
try to give Bad Karma more of a chance sometime soon.  Three other things
to try would be "Of & The" and their contributions to two compilations,
"Invisible Domains" on Malignant Records (MRCD0001) which also features
Voice of Eye, Maeror Tri, Lull, Yen Pox, and others, and "Guru Means Slayer
of Darkness" on Manifold (MANCD07), which also has Hands To and Beequeen.
These are all very good.

I'll have to try Bad Karma again.  The more I think about it I probably was
too harsh.  I mean, I didn't like Fushitsusha the first time I heard them
either, and now look at me.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:45:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
Subject: unintentional irony

Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:03:27 -0400From:
<[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: he puts the 'z' in 'zealous'
>> Zorn's probably on to something good but he may
>>be over-zealous

>Yet another Jewish reference apparently.

I wish I were so smart, didn't realize the irony of my
choice of words until I checked out a dictionary.  But
I just meant it in the generic form not...

Zealot: n.  A member of a fanatical Jewish party (A.D.
6-70) in almost continual revolt against the Romans.

Always learning...

- ---Ryan Novak

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 21:36:48 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: illusion of safety

At 05:21 PM 10/8/99 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>
>meanwhile, i'm wondering what anyone might teach me about illusion of safety.

I strongly recommend Of & The (Soleilmoon) if you like deep drones.  Water
Seeks its own Level is more abrupt noisy changes, but Of & The is excellent.


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 22:07:37 -0400
From: Mike Baktin <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: noise annoys

>I will put on a disclaimer here, however - one reason I don't think I enjoy
>"noise bands" as much as other "noise" types of things (John Cage's
"Cartridge
>Music" or Zorn's wind machine thingy, whatever the title of that is) is a
matter
>of amplitude - interesting conglomerations of sound and noise don't need
to be
>loud to be engaging, and in fact sometimes become more unintelligible with
>increasing amplitude. But maybe that's a different aesthetic altogether.

Well, I think this points to one of the central aspects behind the noise
aesthetic: volume (as in "loudness") is still antithetical to serious art.
Whenever I'm browsing the noise section, I'll almost always chuckle to
myself when confronted with the intentionally childish, inane, usually
pornographic artwork on the cd covers. I believe one of the main assets of
being a noise musician is being able to sleep at night (so to speak)
knowing you create highly-challenging music while at the same time not
being associated with anything snobby, stuffy, or "avant-garde" (and I'm
obviously referring to its negative connotations). I mean, when's the last
time you ever thought Merzbow's music was a despicable example of elitism?
However, I'm not saying noise musicians don't take themselves seriously . .
. there's just something terribly alluring and liberating about being
labelled a "sonic terrorist" . . . a league of their own, not necessarily a
higher one though . . .

Which is probably why if someone like Jim O'Rourke ever referred to himself
as a noise musician (among other things) I'd probably laugh and spill milk
out of my nose. If you can understand my meaning here, you'll realize I'm
saying something positive about Mr O'Rourke.





- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:58:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: SUGAR in their vitamins? <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: illusion of safety

On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

> At 05:21 PM 10/8/99 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> >meanwhile, i'm wondering what anyone might teach me about illusion of safety.
>
> I strongly recommend Of & The (Soleilmoon) if you like deep drones.  Water
> Seeks its own Level is more abrupt noisy changes, but Of & The is excellent.

"Bad Karma" is a return to the old sound of IoS
in the early cassette days (we're talking 1980s)
when this kind of disjointed, noisy and
sample-driven stuff was considered both
experimental and "industrial".

IoS is Dan Burke and anyone who is hanging out
with him at the time. Jim O'Rourke was in the band
for a while. looking over all their releases,
there is a great deal of variety. pretty much, any
CD you can find is worth checking out.
the older vinyl and cassette material is going
to be more difficult to track down.

hasta.

Yes.  Beautiful, wonderful nature.  Hear it sing to us: *snap*  Yes.  natURE.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 Oct 99 10:40:42 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: more signs of the Times

Day 3 of the post Times fracas... philz, I think you're kinda right. My
reactions at least are a little oversensitive and thinskinned. But when I read
the piece, I didn't feel like I was just reading a bad article. I felt like I'd
fallen for the bait-and-switch. I actually thought I was going to read a piece
about Arto, someone I'd trust the Times more to talk about (he's got that whole
multi-culti portrait of a scenic vista avant Buena Vista thing, plenty of what
the Times likes to do, and I thought I'd just learn a little about his anxiously
awaited new rekkerd). I turn to the jump, see a disarmingly huge photo of JZ's
mug, and start to descend downhill with the writer.

You're right again, philz (not trying to be facetious -- you really are). Much
of the article, especially the first half, focuses attention on the
accomplishments of deserving artists. But the writer is clearly setting us up
for a fall. In the end he wants to add oomph to his position, that Zorn has no
business feeling like an outcast Jew in New York City and that it's funny for
him to use Jewish iconography and wear Jewish clothes. Steve's excerpts help
show that, but the real probblem is in the overall construction of the piece,
devolving from describing the music as "an almost palpable feeling of intimacy
among strangers, of community, that goes beyond esthetic pleasure," to that last
line about "Jewish kitsch." If that's really all Zorn's doing, why devote so
much of the article to him. Why not run an enormous photo of someone who's work
is valid? Or why not write about something like Roy Nathanson and Anthony
Coleman's duet, which I like, but which I could see (at times) described as
"Jewish kitsch." Kitsch is something cute you put on a shelf, and if that's all
Masada is, then the author is in the end showing contempt for that group of
strangers who feel a sense of community because of the music. (That group, in
part being us. Like you, I was in that crowded room at the old Knit years ago,
realizing as I stood in the dark listening to the sounds of a train the depth of
the piece. But apparently what we shared, philz, was more like "Good Times" than
"Roots.")

Another odd statement here, as Steve clipped for us, is "By invoking his own
history of oppression, he can assert his right to play the blues, without the
racial envy that often burdens white musicians." This is freaked and stupid. Not
to diminish the accomplishments of many many many brilliant black musicians,
there is this odd idea in America that heartfelt, extemporaneous music is the
property of people of African descent. The terms we use, like "blues" or
"soulful," evoke African American traditions, and the popular conception is that
everything comes from slave songs. As has been said here before, who came first
decades or centuries ago has little to do with creative expression in the
present, but still, improvisation is not a single tradition. Beethoven, Chopin
and others used to improvise in concert. In fact, the improv segment that would
follow a composed work was often considered to be the highlight of a
performance. If you listen to European liturgical music (like Bach's violin
solos), it seems likely (though I don't know) that expanding upon the work while
playing could have been done. And I can't imagine that the klezmer tradition
hasn't always included improvisation. African Americans have no doubt added more
to the tradition of improvised music in America than any other cultural
grouping, and you (not necessarily philz, but anyone) can decide what value you
think that has as a race-based argument. But to say that anyone who picks up a
horn without having sheet music in front of them owes a debt to African slaves
is short-sighted. The tradition is far richer and more diverse than any one
continent.



- -


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:44:40 -0500
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: illusion of safety

On Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 05:21:53PM -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
> meanwhile, i'm wondering what anyone might teach me about illusion of safety.
The one performance I went to of theirs, some years ago, was the single
most painful nonmedical experience I had -- until I saw the Haters,
whose concert I escaped after approximately 15 seconds, my hearing only
returning many minutes later.

- --
|> ~The only thing that is not art is inattention~ --- Marcel Duchamp <|
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:18:55 -0400
From: "Daniel L Brown" <[e-mail]>
Subject: noise etc.

Maybe to shed some light on the (problem with) Merzbow/noise thread...

I used to listen to the noise stuff, but don't any longer.  I took in both
the Japanese scene and the American scene until I became disintrested in
them and haven't felt like re-establishing my aquaintance with it since.
Here's why:

1) To me, there's way too much similarity from one Merzbow album to the
next.  It's not so much that what he's doing is -bad-, but it is -samey-.
Certianly some people shy away from his stuff simply based on what hey hear
(and that shoudn't surprise anyone...), but there seems to be very little
variation from disc to disc.  Here's an analogy: Imagine if evey Evan Parker
album that existed was nothing but solo soprano saxophone.  It would be
interesting for three or four albums, but lose it's charm quickly after
that.  There wouldn't be much surprise when a new album came out - and
that's how I see Merzbow.  '1930' is one of the (very) few Tzadik albums I
don't plan on buying.

2) There's very little room for interplay even when other
musicians/performers are invited on board.  The collaborative CD with
Merzbow and Gore Beyond Necropsy has a few isolated moments of semi-ironic
humor (as well as some of the most well-titled tracks this side of the
Boredoms -- "A Horse Named Rectal Anarchy"?!), but not many.  It's just
another huge monolithic and impenetrable wall of sound.  I'm sure my dislike
of GBN doesn't help ths situation, but I gave the album a fair shot and it
just didn't do anything.

3) There is a huge lack of imagination beyond the top few noise bands out
there.  Why Masonna claiming he uses frequencies that cause headaches and
Namanax claiming he equalizes his albums at levels that will damage stereo
equipment becomes the focal selling point to their CDs, I don't know (a lack
of effort in making the sounds?), but there's no sense of new ground being
broken.  Perhaps there is no new ground to break.  In America, the noise
scene is even worse.  At least in Japan the noise is linked to the (very
Japanese) concept of eroticism, where in America it is linked to the (very
American) concept of violence.

Just some thoughts from someone who immersed himself in the noise scene to
see what he would learn.  More ofetn then not, band like Dog and Cock ESP
were, above anything else, disappointing.  There's not much else I can say.


Dann


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #771
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