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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, August 17 1999       Volume 02 : Number 743



In this issue:
-
       Re: solicitations in excelsis
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: solicitations in excelsis
       Re: ?s & As
       Re: solicitations in excelsis
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: solicitations in excelsis
       Re: electroacoustic music
       Re: bailey rec
       Re: ?s & As
       Re: Derek Bailey goes pop.......
       Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #741

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:48:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: solicitations in excelsis

Just quick:

Van Hove ... B City (FMP)  -great disc, a clutch of freejazzers or
improvers as the Europiles would insist, including Butcher, fine sounds,
interesting development of themes, great solos --what more could you ask

Chris Burn -- Acta 12 --I've tried and tried, but it really does little
for me. Everything is too minature, too quiet, too precious and too twee.
I even saw the band at Victo, but there at least you could pretend that
the movements added something to the piece.

Overall, it remidns me of Benny Green (the British critic)'s description
of a Modern Jazz Quartet: "Suddenly I realized that the whole audience
was watching a man with a small beard take a small stick to strike a
small drum."

Ken Waxman

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

Maybe the solution to all this is to get O'Rourke and his ilk to
"program" and electronic baseball game between NYC and Mtrl. It couldn't
be any slower moving than both "arts" in real time.

Ken Waxman

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:12:47 -0400
From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: solicitations in excelsis

Scott Handley wrote:

>I am really hesitant to do this, but I could really use opinions on the
>following records.  I've tried to avoid redundancy, but feel free to mail me
>privately if that seems more appropriate.  Keep in mind that if there hasn't
>been discussion on the following items, mini-reviews may be helpful to
>newbier folks like me.  Thanks in advance!
>
>FMP CD88 Suite for B... city (Van Hove Nonet)

I have only heard one track from this, on Antennaradio several months ago.
Loved it, don't have any real reason for not buying it yet, except for
memory loss. Thanks for reminding me of it. Anyone else have an opinion?
>
>Music and Arts CD-1003 gryffgryffgryffs: the 1996 Radio Sweden concert
>    (Guy/Crispell/Strid/Gustafsson)

This one really bugs me. Given the line-up, I should like it a lot more
than I do, but for some reason it fails to hold my attention. I have played
it 3, maybe 4 times, always while busy working, and it never draws my
attention away from my computer, until it is over and I realize that it
just drifted by.  Maybe I should give it more attention for  a future
listen, but with so much good music by these people, this one seems to sit
on the shelf.


>
>Nuscope Recordings CD 1001 Passing waves  (Van Hove solo)

Very good. Fred playing miniatures. Not my favorite Van Hove record, but
maybe the one that makes a good intro due to the short track format.  I
prefer the 2 disc set on Potlatch that came out around the same time, which
has one long piece per disc.  The Nuscope is probably easier to find as
well, and a good introduction.  If anyone gets a chance to pick up the Van
Hove/Bauer brothers organ/trombone album Pijp (Wim), go for it.  Really
fun, freaky, and sometimes scary stuff.

>Intakt 024 Theoria (LJCO)
>
>Intakt 041 Ode  (LJCO)

Need anything really be said about the LJCO?  Again, both wonderful, and
Ode has a plus due to its historical significance. I don't know if I would
put Ode as one of my first purchases. Theoria, Double Trouble and Harmos
are all equally good examples of where the band is at in the past decade,
whereas Ode is a bit rougher around the edges.  But all LJCO albums are
worthwhile.  (Anyone know where I can find a copy of Stringer without
selling my car to finance it?)

Dan

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:44:22 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ?s & As

At 11:08 AM 8/17/99 -0500, [e-mail] wrote:
>
>The Cassiber remix isn't a good starter, but is it good? I have the other
>(routinely available, anyway) GZeros, but have held off because of the price
>tag on this one.

I'm a big Cassiber fan as well as GZ, but I'd have to say for completists
only on this one.  Admittedly I haven't listened to it much, but the
Cassiber disk doesn't add much to the original recordings (a sax player on
a couple of tracks), and there's only one track on the GZ disk that sounds
anything like GZ.  Maybe I should listen to it again, because now that you
mention it, it was the first time I heard anything like the sine wave
direction that Otomo took afterwards, but I must report that at first
listening I was pretty disappointed.  It's on ReR, so it will be 'routinely
available' for a while.



- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:53:59 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: solicitations in excelsis

At 06:05 PM 8/17/99 GMT, Scott Handley wrote:
>
>Acta 12 Navigations (Chris Burn Ensemble)

Different strokes, I guess.  I like this one, but it is *very* delicate
textural improv.  I admit that it doesn't pack much punch.

- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:57:23 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> Maybe the solution to all this is to get O'Rourke and his ilk to
> "program" and electronic baseball game between NYC and Mtrl. It couldn't
> be any slower moving than both "arts" in real time.
>
And in your opinion, just as interesting, I suppose.

I'm not sure that that wasn't what he was doing at Victo.

- --Mike

- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Bald Guy

"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:02:38 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: solicitations in excelsis

On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:05:47 GMT  "Scott Handley" wrote:
>
> Ogun CD 010/011 Frames (Music for an imaginary film) (Keith Tippett's Ark
> ensemble)

FRAMES is a really enjoyable record. Luscious compositions and atmospheres
with a style of music half way between Soft Machine and the Ogun "school"
(for the playfulness). The music on FRAMES represents the other side
of Keith, the one closer to progressive music with free playing but always
an eye on the pleasure indicator. To conclude, I would say that FRAMES is a
record where Keith leaves the experimentation in the lab and only brings
to the audience the final (debugged) product.

If you know Centipede, the other large project by Keith, I would say that
FRAMES is in a fairly close spirit (if I remember well, it is almost the
same lineup). BTW, no idea if the 2xLP by Centipede will ever be reissued?

    Patrice.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:25:54 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: electroacoustic music

In a message dated 8/17/99 12:18:01 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Pierre Henry, 'Variations pour une porte et un soupir' (1963), harmonia
mundi HMA 1905200
Pierre Henry 'L'homme a la camera' (1993), Mantra 092/642350
Vladimir Ussachevsky, 'Film Music', (1967), New World Records 80389-2
Vladimir Ussachevsky, a new album on the CRI label containing his earlier
works (1957-1971); don't have the info handy
Various Artists, 'Pioneers of electronic music', CRI american masters, CD
611 (w/ ussachevsky, Luening, others).
Xenakis, 'electronic music', EMF/IMA GRM EMF CD 003
B. Parmegiani, 'de natura sonorum', (1975), INA GRM
B Parmegiani, 'la creation du monde', INA GRM
F. Bayle, 'vibrations composees and grand polyphonie', INA GRM
Luc Ferrari, 'presque rien', INA GRM >>

my list would include the Parmegiani, Bayle, Ferrari, and Xenakis listed
above by Whit, and add Henry's Apocalypse de Jean (Mantra) and Messe Pour Le
Temps Present (Philips France), Xenakis' Legende d'Eer (Auvidis Montaigne),
Stockhausen's Telemusik and Hymnen (Stockhausen Verlag), Gottfried Michael
Koenig's Electronic Works (BVHaast) and Arne Nordheim's Electric (Rune
Grammofon).

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:06:53 -0400
From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: bailey rec

>>Fairly Early Derek Bailey With Postscripts
>
>This is one of two examples I know of. On one track the tape was left
running
>and DB alternates some "straight" guitar playing with bursts of his more
ususal
>noise. It _is_ on Emanem and is well worthwhile for a variety of reasons.

Yeah, this is the record that I thought was mentioned on the original post.
And thus, memory serving, I picked this one up earlier in the week.

All Brian said is quite right.  The spoken word pieces are real gems.
Everything is a real gem except the ten minutes of
Bailey/Anthony Braxton 1974 duets, which, to be quite frank,
I don't like one bit.

But, let me get to the point.  There is no straight playing on this
cd.  On the 35 second long track 2, there are three episodes of 5 second
duration each of conventional strumming, separated by spaz guitar.
Is this the entirety of the "straight playing"?  Apparently so,
since I have now listened to the cd five times in the past two days
trying to find the rest of it.

My comment:  This record is a very nice DB record.  However,
for those looking for an example of DB playing straight, this
hardly qualifies.

Oh... I just saw another email from Stefan V. giving much
the same warning that I gave here.  Oh well, redundancy
only helps to safeguard the successful transmission of
the message.

David "happy to have got the record anyway" K.

p.s.
Hey, one other Bailey-related item.
from earlier in the week:

>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Tohjinbo
>

>This reminded that I wanted to ask if the second
>Bailey/Ruins CD is like the first at all.  I liked
>Saisoro but got bored with it quickly.  Ruins seemed a
>little too understated or something on that one.  I
>couldn't really hear the bass much at all.

Tohjinbo is of a similar style as Saisoro.
I have heard some opinions voicing a preference for
Tohjinbo over Saisoro, but in my opinion:
six of one, half a dozen of the other.
Hearing both are required only for hardcore
Bailey or Yoshida Tatsuya addicts.
My hopefully harmless opinion only.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:29:37 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: ?s & As

[e-mail] wrote:

>
> On watching O'Rourke: yeah, there's not much to look at. But remember, this is
> music, not theater. You _listen_, not look.

It's both, is it not?  Otherwise, darken the room, give the audience
blindfolds, whatever.  Sorry if I sound too mainstream or whatever,
people paid to see something as well as hear it, did they not?  Maybe
not.  Anyway, as I found the music excruciatingly boring, I wasn't left
with a whole helluva lot.

 (and I'm a JO'R fan, for what it's
> worth).
> I actually find the focus on watching pretty distressing. If the reason it's
> better to see Zorn live than buy a CD (assuming we agree it is) is so you can go
> "Hey, he's wearing camouflage pants again, and remember when his hair was
> short?", then I'm not sure you even get the power of improv, whether it be
> blowing a horn or fast thinking on a laptop -- both of which can involve "real
> time virtuosity" (sorry to call you out, mike, but really...)

In the concert in question, the thinking was slow, or so it appeared to
be.  I think the problem I have is that I just don't see where the
virtuosity lies.  I really don't.  Sure, O'Rourke cleverly programmed
stuff that would go along with Muller, but software development is not a
spectator sport.  Maybe the problem is that O'Rourke's appeal is to a
great extent, intellectual, which I instinctively shrink from.  It's
like, "Well, this is an interesting idea."  But that's as far as it goes
for me unless I can find *some* other level on which to engage with it.

> There's an energy
> to people reacting to each other in real time that doesn't translate onto disc,
> and it's not something that you can see. It's about being in the room.

Well, there can also be the visual and emotional appeal of watching
people work together and enjoying it and transmitting their joy and
energy to the audience, as we saw with Brotzmann and Mujician and
Zorn/Graves.  There can also be a sense that there is a real interaction
going on, as we got with I.S.O. and Klaxon Gueule.  There might be
performances that involve less improvisation but more theatricality, as
with Hoahio and, say, Iva Bittova, but with a sense of joy or
enjoyment.  I'm just mentioning people we saw at Victo.  From O'Rourke
and Muller, I got nothing.  I thought the music was very uninteresting,
there was a low level of real-time interaction, virtually no physical
virtuosity, no theatricality, no joy, no emotional engagement.

I felt that too much of what happened was predetermined.  I'm willing to
admit that I was wrong, but the whole thing was pretty wanky IMHO.
>
> Oh, and Patrick Brown, thanks. Henry Threadgill should be heralded here and on
> all listservs at least once a week.

I can agree with you on this.

- --Mike
- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Bald Guy

"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:42:09 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Derek Bailey goes pop.......

Stefan Verstraeten wrote:

> It is indeed from the emanem album Fairly early with postscript.
>
> The track i was talking about is called 'In whose tradition', but watch out,
> the track only takes 35 seconds.
>
> Anyway, it is a nice thing to hear derek play normally....

He does it again very very very briefly in a funny moment in the narrated
selection "Interlude" on the quite brilliant solo CD 'Drop Me Off at 96th.'
He's telling the story of an interviewer who says at one point, "I didn't know
how old you were," and this reminds Derek of the pop tune "I Didn't Know What
Time It Was," and he quickly sneaks a few bars of that tune into his
improvisation.  Completely delightful.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
(jonesing to buy the new DB with a couple Canadian blokes I just saw yesterday
at Downtown Music Gallery... damn, it irks me when there's a new DB that I don't
have yet...)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:52:14 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #741

Ryan Novak wrote:
>
> >I think if people were to use some of the software,
> orview a backdrop screen
> >of it at work, perhaps then their misconceptions
> andnegative stereotypes would
> >be allieved.
>
> That could be true.  Even though we don't all play
> saxophones, guitars, drums, etc. we have sort of an
> idea of how they are played.  The computer performance
> is more of a mystery.  As of now.

We also have an idea of how difficult it is to play a traditional
instrument well.  And there is a performing tradition that we are more
or less aware of; we, the audience, bring something to the performance
in this regard.

OTOH, we all use computers.  If you know what it can do, it is not
(apparently) difficult to use one.  And if you have certain expectations
about performance that are not met, well then, you're like me, a
philistine in this area.

> Also the musician's
> themselves will get better at using these programs
> which are still very very new compared to more
> traditional instruments.

It is less apparent to me that this is a problem.  If the sounds that
are being coaxed out of the machine are uninteresting, then the
performance is a magnificent failure, no matter how well the program is
used, if you can distinguish between using a program well and the actual
development of the musical/sound ideas.
>
> I also still think that O'Rourke was boring though.  I
> didn't see much interaction either, but that could be
> said about some of the non-electronic shows there.

Certainly.  But more than the lack of interaction was the fact that the
music didn't seem to go anywhere.  I've said it before, when that
happens, what are you left with?

> But NOT the Brotzmann Tentet which sort of defined
> interaction.

You got that right.

Maybe we can turn this discussion in a slightly different direction.
Apart from what we see as the merits of a particular musical and
instrumental approach, what role does "performance" and staging have to
play in our enjoyment?  Thinking of Victo still, on Thursday night,
Maxime Rioux presented Automates K.  The performance consisted of
programming "robots," for lack of a better word, to produce sounds.
Now, the music that was produced was not so great, mainly because Maxime
seemed to abandon his ideas too quickly without letting them develop.
But a big part of the fun was watching the robots themselves.  However,
everything was set up on a stage at the front, so most of the audience
did not have a good view of what was happening.  I talked with Maxime
afteward, and he was disappointed because they weren't able to stage the
whole thing in the middle of the room.  Michel Levasseur seemed to be
inflexible in this regard, or perhaps the technical people were daunted
by the effort that doing this would have entailed.  Anyway, it seemed an
opportunity lost.  And it's a shame, because it would have added a lot
to my enjoyment, and everyone else's.  Now both Tom and Kurt have said
that it is the music that matters, that we go to listen, not to see.
But I wonder if we all agree--we don't--and more importantly, how we
approach this issue.  It's a lot more, too, than what someone is wearing
and how long their hair is.  What is it that seems to be more
interesting about watching people blow through tubes and hit things with
sticks than watching someone hit buttons on a computer keyboard?

This is an area that I know almost nothing about theoretically.  Perhaps
someone can recommend some good reading, or at least contribute a bit to
my thinking on this matter.

- --Mike

Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Bald Guy

"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #743
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