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1999-08-16
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #739
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Monday, August 16 1999 Volume 02 : Number 739
In this issue:
-
Re[2]: recent goodies (otomo edition)
RE: Sabbath in Paradise
Re: Otomo
Zorn Tour Dates
Re: Otomo
Re: Otomo
Re: Otomo
Re: Otomo
Re: Otomo
Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis
t-master WAITS for no one
Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
Re: Re[2]: recent goodies (otomo edition)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:43:41 -0400
From: brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu
Subject: Re[2]: recent goodies (otomo edition)
Jon wrote:
>well, I was hoping other people would chime in on this thread, but no such
>luck yet.
This is kind of distressing, no? Here we have several superb posts by Jon and
Caleb, offering fascinating analysis and carefully drawn, sensitive impressions
of some of the most amazing, forward-looking music being produced today, making
connections with some of the great, unrecognized music from previous decades
(all this on a list with a subscribership ostensibly concerned with such
matters) and they draw nary a response. At the same time, the passing mention of
this or that rock star with slight avant-gardish leanings evokes dozens.
*sigh*...the more things change...
In any case, as Jon and Caleb (among, presumably, others) have far greater
knowledge of electro-acoustic music than I do, I was also hoping for other
contributions to this discussion, ie, relating current practitioners of the
genre (if, indeed, it could be succinctly defined, which I doubt) to past
masters, the identifiability of electronic performers, etc. C'mon, people, dig
in!
I had just purchased the Ground-Zero 'Last Concert' disc the day before Caleb's
first post and wanted to give a few more listens before commenting, but: it's
one pretty spectacular performance! The sheer sonic density involved gives one
tons of material to wade through; I'd certainly be interested to hear any
antecedants to material like this (though I've heard some Pousseur, for example,
nothing I've encountered has been quite this ferocious). Also, to the extent one
might consider it 'rock' (certainly arguable), the second track here, which
features a rockish bass line and drumming, is the finest piece of rock I've
heard since "Leng T'che". (But, was _that_ rock?)
In a sense, I guess, it's refreshing to know that there are still areas of music
capable of baffling/enraging even supposedly open-eared listeners. Howard
Mandel's overview of this years Victo festival in the current WIRE is a good
example of a fine writer well-versed in the jazz avant-garde coming up against a
wall with regards to Otomo, Godspeed, O'Rourke, etc. finding their music, cold,
inhuman and so on. Oddly enough, it reminds me of critical reaction to the AACM
in its early days; just substitute Braxton for Otomo. As I said, plus ca
change...
End of rant.
Brian Olewnick
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:03:28 -0400
From: "Vanheumen, Robert" <rvanheumen@issgroup.net>
Subject: RE: Sabbath in Paradise
zach,
i'm in contact with the maker of Sabbath in Paradise to start selling it
over the web. it has been delayed because she's out of town for 6 weeks, but
you can expect a message on this emaillist when this is arranged. i don't
think there is another way of getting it, unless you find somebody who taped
it when it was shown on german tv.
robert
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:24:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <wyork@email.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Otomo
>
><< What *would* be a good intro to GZ then?>>
>
>they're all pretty different, but I'd say start with the first,
self-titled
>one, Ground Zero (my copy's on Trigram, but I think it's in print on
another
>label now).
The God Mountain version also seems to be out of print, and at least I
have not been able to get it after several months of trying. Forced
Exposure has
taken it off their list, and one of the people there told me there were
problems with the label.
WY
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:49:05 PDT
From: "Noah Enelow" <enelow@hotmail.com>
Subject: Zorn Tour Dates
Dear Zorn Digest:
I posted this message earlier, but I'm posting it again because I didn't put
the subject on the right line (sorry...)
Does anyone have any Zorn tour information? I live in San Francisco and I'm
wondering when he's next coming west. If anyone knows of a website or just
has a list of dates, please e-mail me at enelow@hotmail.com. Thanks, and
sorry if you're tired of reading the same message again.
- --Noah
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:19:14 -0400
From: Dan Given <lgiven1@julian.uwo.ca>
Subject: Re: Otomo
>
>Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:23:13 -0700 (PDT)
>From: "m. rizzi" <rizzi@netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Otomo
>
>Caleb T. Deupree, demi-God and Icon sez:
>>
>>My copy's on God Mountain, a French label.
>
> Close, :) actually, God Mountain is a Japanese label
> associated with Hoppy Komiyama.
>
> mike
>
Well, it seems that God Mountain has dual citizenship, because my copy of
the Ground Zero disc is a French copy as well.
And since we're discussing Otomo, he appears on two (or maybe three) tracks
on a really interesting new Gino Robair disc on Meniscus called Buddy
Systems. Duets and trios with a variety of people such as Otomo, LaDonna
Smith, Tim Perkis, Oluyemi Thomas, John Butcher, and Dan Plonsey.
Definitely worth hearing. It would make a good intro to anyone not familiar
with the diversity of Robair, or many of the other players.
Dan
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 10:25:17 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Otomo
On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:19:14 -0400 Dan Given wrote:
>
> Well, it seems that God Mountain has dual citizenship, because my copy of
> the Ground Zero disc is a French copy as well.
To my knowledge, there are only two pressings of that record:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
018 - GROUND-ZERO: Ground Zero
1993 - God Mountain (Japan), GMCD-002 (CD)
1996 - Les Disques Du Soleil Et De L'AcierGod Mountain Europe (France),
CDSA/GM 54047 (CD)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:33:24 +1000
From: "Josephine Yeatman or Jim Glaspole" <drjim@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Otomo
I still have a Peril CD or two (maybe 20 actually) kicking around featuring
Otomo in 1992 (similar phase to first GZ) if anyone wants one. $9.50
Australian plus postage, mail me privately if you're interested. Details
are on Patrice's excellent discography.
Jim Glaspole
drjim@ozemail.com.au
www.ozemail.com.au/~drjim
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:39:19 EDT
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Otomo
In a message dated 8/16/99 1:27:24 PM, proussel@ichips.intel.com writes:
<< To my knowledge, there are only two pressings of that record:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
018 - GROUND-ZERO: Ground Zero
1993 - God Mountain (Japan), GMCD-002 (CD)
1996 - Les Disques Du Soleil Et De L'AcierGod Mountain Europe (France),
CDSA/GM 54047 (CD) >>
oh, whoops. after checking again, mine is indeed the 1993 Japanese God
Mountain version, not Trigram as I stated earlier.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:50:38 -0400
From: Dan Given <lgiven1@julian.uwo.ca>
Subject: Re: Otomo
At 10:25 AM 8/16/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:19:14 -0400 Dan Given wrote:
>>
>> Well, it seems that God Mountain has dual citizenship, because my copy of
>> the Ground Zero disc is a French copy as well.
>
>To my knowledge, there are only two pressings of that record:
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>
>018 - GROUND-ZERO: Ground Zero
>
> 1993 - God Mountain (Japan), GMCD-002 (CD)
> 1996 - Les Disques Du Soleil Et De L'AcierGod Mountain Europe (France),
> CDSA/GM 54047 (CD)
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>
> Patrice.
The 1996 release is the one I have. It has several logos on the back for
both God Mountain and DSA. A postcard inside says that DSA is God Mountain
Europe.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:11:06 EDT
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis
I thought I'd take a break from discussing the state of live electroacoustic
improv to tout this double CD on ECM (also titled 1961), which is one of my
alltime favorite jazz records.
I woke up this morning with a headache from partying a bit too much last
night, and I've been playing this all morning. it's a trio of Paul Bley,
Steve Swallow, and Giuffre, and it's a reissue of two records recorded for
Verve in 1961 (I assume this is the reason that the sound isn't typically
Eicher-ized.)
chamber jazz at its finest, a touch edgy while still remaining beautfiul and
soothing. and these three musicians were working with similar ideas of
structure as Ornette at around the same time, a fact that seems to be
oft-ignored by jazz historians. gorgeous stuff, and essential in any jazz
collection, a claim I'd only make about a handful of records.
Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:14:41 -0400
From: jk@interactive.net (Jonathan Kaye)
Subject: t-master WAITS for no one
sorry to put this request to the whole list but i wound up working from 9 am
sunday through 11 am monday and wasn't able to call to get tom waits
tickets. anyone have an extra they'd be willing to sell for either the 23,
24 or 25.
thanks.
jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:18:29 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <mikec@rocler.qc.ca>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu wrote:
>
> In a sense, I guess, it's refreshing to know that there are still areas of music
> capable of baffling/enraging even supposedly open-eared listeners. Howard
> Mandel's overview of this years Victo festival in the current WIRE is a good
> example of a fine writer well-versed in the jazz avant-garde coming up against a
> wall with regards to Otomo, Godspeed, O'Rourke, etc. finding their music, cold,
> inhuman and so on.
WRT O'Rourke, I don't get it. I mean, I don't get what's so interesting
about Jim O'Rourke. So he's getting pretty sounds out of a computer
which he's programmed for each of the various "performers" that he
appears with. I'm supposed to be impressed by this? I can't speak for
Howard, but after about 20 minutes of O'Rourke and Muller at Victo, we
left together and went for a drive in the country. It was an infinitely
more interesting and entertaining experience than listening to (and
certainly) watching those guys. I could look over someone's shoulder as
he programmed his computer and at least get the satisfaction of
interacting with him. O'Rourke is certainly not interesting to watch.
You know how, to a lot of people, "free" jazz makes a lot more sense
when they see it performed live? Well, what I saw of O'Rourke makes
less sense live, at least IMHO.
I don't mean to sound snotty, and believe me, I would rather have found
something to enjoy there, but if this is the future of music and
performing, let me off now. I must admit that I glossed over Jon and
Caleb's posts--O'Rourke causes my eyes to glaze over and my head to get
very heavy.
I.S.O., on the other hand, was quite a bit more interesting. There was
a sense that there was some real-time interaction going on that had some
development of textural elements.
> Oddly enough, it reminds me of critical reaction to the AACM
> in its early days; just substitute Braxton for Otomo. As I said, plus ca
> change...
>
I haven't seen the WIRE article yet. Which issue is it?. The latest I
saw in the store had Carl Craig (Charlatan TM) on the cover. Was it the
one before that?
- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Bald Guy
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:58:45 -0400
From: Brian Olewnick <olewnik@idt.net>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
Mike Chamberlain wrote:
> WRT O'Rourke, I don't get it. I mean, I don't get what's so interesting
> about Jim O'Rourke. So he's getting pretty sounds out of a computer
> which he's programmed for each of the various "performers" that he
> appears with. I'm supposed to be impressed by this?
A rare occasion I've heard O'Rourke's PC sounds described as "pretty"!
Independent of the music he ends up creating, I actually _do_ think it's
impressive that he writes different software for different
collaborators. In acoustic free improv, I know I can tire of certain
performers who approach each gig in precisely the same manner, no matter
who they're playing with. That O'Rourke takes that much care in prepping
for his shows actually impresses me a good deal.
> I can't speak for
> Howard, but after about 20 minutes of O'Rourke and Muller at Victo, we
> left together and went for a drive in the country. It was an infinitely
> more interesting and entertaining experience than listening to (and
> certainly) watching those guys. I could look over someone's shoulder as
> he programmed his computer and at least get the satisfaction of
> interacting with him. O'Rourke is certainly not interesting to watch.
Interestingly, I thought the beginning of that set was the most
beautiful! As in any free improv, the results can be hit or miss. I
recently caught JO with Christian Marclay; set 1 was very choppy with
O'Rourke falling into a trap that seems to ensnare many a notebook
performer: relying on canned hip-hop rhythms, the interjection (ironic
or otherwise) of a schmaltzy pop song, etc. In the second set, however,
the duo calmly developed ideas, getting deeply into gorgeous sonic
spaces (gorgeous to me, that is--possibly irritating to others).
_Watching_ performances like this is another matter and one I can
imagine being off-putting to many listeners. As Patrice remarked to me
during O'Rourke's Victo show, "I think he's answering his e-mail." But,
objectively, I think that's more a carry-over from jazz and rock show
experience. I mean, it's music after all and you wouldn't think one
needs to watch anything, right? Is it so hard to view different shows
from different perspectives. Certainly, watching the Brotzmann tentet
was part of the fun, but not the essential part...
> I don't mean to sound snotty, and believe me, I would rather have found
> something to enjoy there, but if this is the future of music and
> performing, let me off now. I must admit that I glossed over Jon and
> Caleb's posts--O'Rourke causes my eyes to glaze over and my head to get
> very heavy.
(Mike, you might want to try some of his fine Fahey-oriented discs like
"Bad Timing"--if you haven't heard this aspect of his playing, you might
be surprised!)
>
> I.S.O., on the other hand, was quite a bit more interesting. There was
> a sense that there was some real-time interaction going on that had some
> development of textural elements.
Agreed totally; I thought this was the finest electronic show at the
festival. One of my problems with much of what I perceived to be the
dominant critical reaction there was the unwillingness to distinguish
between the performers, lumping them all into the "sine wave" category
(and, to be sure, their were a few really crappy electronic shows
there). You know, sort of like the mainstream jazz critics seeing no
difference between Mitchell, Braxton or Brotzmann....they're all just
screechers, after all. The difficulty in wrapping one's ears around this
music strikes me as analagous to the same problems one might have had,
even asa a jazz fan, appreciating, say, the AACM's music in the late
60's.
> I haven't seen the WIRE article yet. Which issue is it?. The latest I
> saw in the store had Carl Craig (Charlatan TM) on the cover. Was it the
> one before that?
The current one with Scanner on the cover.
> Mike Chamberlain
> Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
> Bald Guy
^^^^^^^^
But that occasionally has its advantages, eh Mike?
Brian Olewnick (anticipating Vladimir Guerrero's inevitable signing by
the Yanks)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:27:03 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@ctech.smtc.net>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
Mike Chamberlain wrote:
> WRT O'Rourke, I don't get it. I mean, I don't get what's so interesting
> about Jim O'Rourke. So he's getting pretty sounds out of a computer
> which he's programmed for each of the various "performers" that he
> appears with. I'm supposed to be impressed by this?
Well, if you want put it that way... I take it you *are* impressed when people blow
air into horns and hit things with sticks?
It doesn't bother me at all to watch a musician sitting behind a powerbook, so long as
they're making interesting music. To me, if the music is interesting, the musician
will be interesting to watch no matter what they're doing. Despite their not moving
much or visually displaying much emotion, I really enjoyed watching Muller/O'Rourke,
not to mention I.S.O. and Merzbow.
Since you say you enjoyed the I.S.O., I'm assuming it wasn't the stage presence you
disliked about the Muller/O'Rourke show, but the music itself. If that's not true, I'd
argue that you approached the thing all wrong.
-Tom Pratt
listening to: Invisibl Skratch Piklz Vs. Da Klamz Uv Deth. Does anyone know what label
this 12" is on? Forced Exposure lists one of the same name on Asphodel, but my copy
says KOD-001 on the spine.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:26:47 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: recent goodies (otomo edition)
On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:43:41 -0400 brian_olewnick@smtplink.mssm.edu wrote:
>
> In a sense, I guess, it's refreshing to know that there are still areas of music
> capable of baffling/enraging even supposedly open-eared listeners. Howard
> Mandel's overview of this years Victo festival in the current WIRE is a good
> example of a fine writer well-versed in the jazz avant-garde coming up against a
> wall with regards to Otomo, Godspeed, O'Rourke, etc. finding their music, cold,
> inhuman and so on. Oddly enough, it reminds me of critical reaction to the AACM
> in its early days; just substitute Braxton for Otomo. As I said, plus ca
> change...
I was also disappointed by Howard Mandel's review of the festival, not that
I expected him to agree with me on everything :-), but because writing in a
magazine like THE WIRE, I would have expected him to leave his "jazz" hat at
home. He seems to me to be mainly out of phase with the spirit of THE WIRE
(which dedicates a lot of room to the artists that Howard did not like).
His comment on Mujician really puzzled me. According to him the only good
moment of the show was when Paul Dunmall played bagpipe... Me and and my wife
thought that the bagpipe episode was nice, but more like a sorbet between two
main courses. Or maybe it was an inside joke... I totally disagree also with
his comment on Sam Furnace, which appeared to me to be very restrained, almost
absent.
On the contrary, I thought that Michael Rosenstein's review in CADENCE was
right on (I had a hard time to find something I disagreed with).
Patrice.
NP: 13 by Blur
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #739
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