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Zorn List Digest       Tuesday, August 17 1999       Volume 02 : Number 740



In this issue:
-
       Re: Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: winter & winter (was paul simon)
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: Jimmy Giuffre-health
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #739
       Re:  Zorn List Digest V2 #739

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:43:44 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis

On Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:11:06 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> I thought I'd take a break from discussing the state of live electroacoustic
> improv to tout this double CD on ECM (also titled 1961), which is one of my
> alltime favorite jazz records.

Do you know FREE FALL, which has (I think) the same lineup and is one of the
most overlooked free-jazz record ever done (fortunately recently reissued)!

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:05:54 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

Brian Olewnick wrote:
>

> A rare occasion I've heard O'Rourke's PC sounds described as "pretty"!

I don't mean it in a positive sense. :-)

> Independent of the music he ends up creating, I actually _do_ think it's
> impressive that he writes different software for different
> collaborators. In acoustic free improv, I know I can tire of certain
> performers who approach each gig in precisely the same manner, no matter
> who they're playing with. That O'Rourke takes that much care in prepping
> for his shows actually impresses me a good deal.

But it was boring music.  B-O-R-I-N-G
>
> > I can't speak for
> > Howard, but after about 20 minutes of O'Rourke and Muller at Victo, we
> > left together and went for a drive in the country.  It was an infinitely
> > more interesting and entertaining experience than listening to (and
> > certainly) watching those guys. I could look over someone's shoulder as
> > he programmed his computer and at least get the satisfaction of
> > interacting with him. O'Rourke is certainly not interesting to watch.
>
> Interestingly, I thought the beginning of that set was the most
> beautiful! As in any free improv, the results can be hit or miss. I
> recently caught JO with Christian Marclay; set 1 was very choppy with
> O'Rourke falling into a trap that seems to ensnare many a notebook
> performer: relying on canned hip-hop rhythms, the interjection (ironic
> or otherwise) of a schmaltzy pop song, etc. In the second set, however,
> the duo calmly developed ideas, getting deeply into gorgeous sonic
> spaces (gorgeous to me, that is--possibly irritating to others).
> _Watching_ performances like this is another matter and one I can
> imagine being off-putting to many listeners. As Patrice remarked to me
> during O'Rourke's Victo show, "I think he's answering his e-mail."

I agree with Patrice.  Hi Patrice.

But,
> objectively, I think that's more a carry-over from jazz and rock show
> experience. I mean, it's music after all and you wouldn't think one
> needs to watch anything, right?

Maybe I am a prisoner of my own cultural expectations, but why pay to
see something that's not worth looking at?  Buy the CD.  Save the trip
to the boonies and avoid five days of bad food.

> Is it so hard to view different shows
> from different perspectives. Certainly, watching the Brotzmann tentet
> was part of the fun, but not the essential part...

No, but if the music is uninteresting, and there is no performative
aspect, then why pay the $15-20 and compound the error by sitting
through the whole thing?
>
> > I don't mean to sound snotty, and believe me, I would rather have found
> > something to enjoy there, but if this is the future of music and
> > performing, let me off now.  I must admit that I glossed over Jon and
> > Caleb's posts--O'Rourke causes my eyes to glaze over and my head to get
> > very heavy.
>
> (Mike, you might want to try some of his fine Fahey-oriented discs like
> "Bad Timing"--if you haven't heard this aspect of his playing, you might
> be surprised!)

I'll czech it out. :-)

> >
> > I.S.O., on the other hand, was quite a bit more interesting.  There was
> > a sense that there was some real-time interaction going on that had some
> > development of textural elements.
>
> Agreed totally; I thought this was the finest electronic show at the
> festival. One of my problems with much of what I perceived to be the
> dominant critical reaction there was the unwillingness to distinguish
> between the performers, lumping them all into the "sine wave" category
> (and, to be sure, their were a few really crappy electronic shows
> there). You know, sort of like the mainstream jazz critics seeing no
> difference between Mitchell, Braxton or Brotzmann....they're all just
> screechers, after all. The difficulty in wrapping one's ears around this
> music strikes me as analagous to the same problems one might have had,
> even asa a jazz fan, appreciating, say, the AACM's music in the late
> 60's.
>
Well, we all have our own preconceptions to bear.

> > Mike Chamberlain
> > Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
> > Bald Guy
>   ^^^^^^^^
>
> But that occasionally has its advantages, eh Mike?

Ahem.
>
> Brian Olewnick (anticipating Vladimir Guerrero's inevitable signing by
> the Yanks)

Bastard.  Actually, he's signed in Montreal (or to the franchise,
wherever it might be, but it *will* be in Montreal), until the end of
the 2004 season.  If I were the new owners coming in, I'd immediately
sign him to a 5-year $75 million extension.  Otherwise, he's a free
agent at age 27, and he'll be the first $25 million/year man.  What a
monster.

- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Bald Guy

"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:09:26 -0400
From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis

>Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:11:06 EDT
>From: [e-mail]
>Subject: Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis
>
>I thought I'd take a break from discussing the state of live electroacoustic
>improv to tout this double CD on ECM (also titled 1961), which is one of my
>alltime favorite jazz records.
>
>I woke up this morning with a headache from partying a bit too much last
>night, and I've been playing this all morning. it's a trio of Paul Bley,
>Steve Swallow, and Giuffre, and it's a reissue of two records recorded for
>Verve in 1961 (I assume this is the reason that the sound isn't typically
>Eicher-ized.)
>
>chamber jazz at its finest, a touch edgy while still remaining beautfiul and
>soothing. and these three musicians were working with similar ideas of
>structure as Ornette at around the same time, a fact that seems to be
>oft-ignored by jazz historians. gorgeous stuff, and essential in any jazz
>collection, a claim I'd only make about a handful of records.
>
>Jon
>www.erstwhilerecords.com
>

Is this still in print? I was trying to track it down for a while, and
having no luck (in Canada, anyway). I recently stumbled across a used copy
finally, and am thrilled with it.
I would also recommend Giuffre's Free Fall, on Columbia, from a couple of
years later.  It doesn't have that quiet beauty that makes Fusion and
Thesis such great albums, but is still fascinating.  This is the stream of
avant-garde jazz I wish more players would have gleamed on to in the 60s,
rather than following the Coltrane/Ayler models (not that I have anything
against that, but...)

Also, is Giuffre still playing? Last I heard, he was fairly ill, but I
don't know if it was a chronic illness or short-term.  His most recent
albums with the same trio from the early 60s are not bad, but I really like
his work in the late 80s/early 90s with Andre Jaume (and Joe McPhee a bit).

Dan

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:20:01 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

Tom Pratt wrote:
>
> Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>
> > WRT O'Rourke, I don't get it.  I mean, I don't get what's so interesting
> > about Jim O'Rourke.  So he's getting pretty sounds out of a computer
> > which he's programmed for each of the various "performers" that he
> > appears with.  I'm supposed to be impressed by this?
>
> Well, if you want put it that way... I take it you *are* impressed when people blow
> air into horns and hit things with sticks?

One requires real-time virtuosity, the ability to listen and respond.
One does not.  Guess which is which.

>
> It doesn't bother me at all to watch a musician sitting behind a powerbook, so long as
> they're making interesting music. To me, if the music is interesting, the musician
> will be interesting to watch no matter what they're doing.

Can you *really* say that?  Then why is it that we can judge live
performances as being more or less interesting/entertaining/rewarding,
if the music in all cases is delivered in much the same way? (I'm
thinking mainly of more mainstream stuff, but I could include acoustic
free jazzers.)  Which is which?  Can you pull the music and the
performance apart?  I think you can to a certain extent. It's not
something I've totally worked out, obviously.  I guess what bugged me
about O'Rourke was that both the music and the performance (and I use
that term very loosely here) were exceedingly uninteresting.  And if the
music had been something I enjoyed, then I might have cut it a bit of
slack, I suppose, but this....

> Despite their not moving
> much or visually displaying much emotion, I really enjoyed watching Muller/O'Rourke,
> not to mention I.S.O. and Merzbow.
>
> Since you say you enjoyed the I.S.O., I'm assuming it wasn't the stage presence you
> disliked about the Muller/O'Rourke show, but the music itself.

It was both.  I.S.O. had a little more stage presence than
O'Rourke/Muller, but what they were playing also had more of a sense of
play, of ideas being developed according to the exigencies of the
moment, unlike O'Rourke/Muller, which was too calculated for me.  I
didn't hear or see O'Rourke listening to Muller, though Muller was
listening to O'Rourke.  It has to go both ways to work, at least for me
it does.

>If that's not true, I'd
> argue that you approached the thing all wrong.

Well, that's altogether possible.  I'm trying to get to a place where I
can appreciate what I saw and heard at that concert.  But that day, I
had more fun explaining to Howard Mandel how maple syrup production
works than watching and listening to Jim O'Rourke and Gunter Muller.
>
- --Mike

- --
Mike Chamberlain
Teacher, Writer, Father, Farmer, Broadcaster, Baseball Fan, Jazz Nerd,
Bald Guy

"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused."

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:08:32 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: winter & winter (was paul simon)

At 11:26 AM 8/16/99 +1000, Aaron Chee-Kean Chua wrote:
>
>btw, there's a place in my neck of woods (melbourne) where i can get my
>hands on winter&winter discs. i've already got hte caine/mahler disc.
>has anyone got any recommendations for this label? quite a number of the
>releases look tempting.

Strong second on the recommendation for Reijseger with Tenore e Cuncerdu,
and also Dave Douglas on Charms of the Night Sky, a sextet recording with
lots of Eastern European influences.


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:48:37 -0700
From: s ~ Z <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

One of my all time favorite live performances was seeing Otomo and Carl
Stone at the now defunct Alligator Lounge in Santa Monica. Stone lived up
to his name, sitting motionless, but gathered no moss as he generated
glorious computer sounds, while across the stage, Otomo was a whirling
dervish bouncing between his arsenal of CD players, turntables, and
guitars. That week, Pres. Cli(n)ton had formally refused to apologize to
Japan for WWII damages--at one poignant moment Otomo spun an LP playing
the the US National Anthem. A few bars in his fist came smashing down on
that familiar malady, ending it forcefully and effectively.  I don't know
that I would have enjoyed Stone solo despite the quality of sound he
emitted, but in tandem with Otomo it remains a night to remember.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:25:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jimmy Giuffre-Fusion/Thesis

If you want just as good a CD (a little less expensively), pick up
Giufre's Free Fall on Columbia Legacy. It was the last record by the
Bley-Swallow Giuffre 3 and it includes about 1 1/2 tiems e music as the
original CD.

Ken Waxman

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:48:37 -0700
From: s ~ Z <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

One of my all time favorite live performances was seeing Otomo and Carl
Stone at the now defunct Alligator Lounge in Santa Monica. Stone lived up
to his name, sitting motionless, but gathered no moss as he generated
glorious computer sounds, while across the stage, Otomo was a whirling
dervish bouncing between his arsenal of CD players, turntables, and
guitars. That week, Pres. Cli(n)ton had formally refused to apologize to
Japan for WWII damages--at one poignant moment Otomo spun an LP playing
the the US National Anthem. A few bars in his fist came smashing down on
that familiar malady, ending it forcefully and effectively.  I don't know
that I would have enjoyed Stone solo despite the quality of sound he
emitted, but in tandem with Otomo it remains a night to remember.

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:33:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Jimmy Giuffre-health

From what I recall he has some sort of degenerative disease (Parkinson's,
MS ?) and he can still play, but only for a very short time.

Unfortunately I think we're one minute from the end of his musical careeer.

Ken Waxman

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:17:19 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

In a message dated 8/16/99 9:17:47 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< Mike Chamberlain wrote:
>
> > WRT O'Rourke, I don't get it.  I mean, I don't get what's so interesting
> > about Jim O'Rourke.  So he's getting pretty sounds out of a computer
> > which he's programmed for each of the various "performers" that he
> > appears with.  I'm supposed to be impressed by this?
>
> Well, if you want put it that way... I take it you *are* impressed when
people blow
> air into horns and hit things with sticks?

One requires real-time virtuosity, the ability to listen and respond.
One does not.  Guess which is which >>

ok, Mike, as if the phrase "performers" isn't insulting enough, now you
regale us with this "opinion"? just like in acoustic improv, there are good
musicians and bad musicians. there are good perfomances and bad performances.
you don't seem too interested in distinguishing between the two, which is
fine, but don't pass judgment on a genre that you have seemingly only dipped
the tip of your toe into before going off and discussing the merits of maple
syrup.

and if major league baseball were run like the English Premier League, the
Expos would have been relegated to AA ball by now.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:37:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #739

> Mike Chamberlain wrote:> WRT O'Rourke, I don't get
it.  I mean, I don't get
what's so interesting> about Jim O'Rourke.  So he's
>getting pretty sounds
out of a computer> which he's programmed for each of
the various
"performers" that he> appears with.  I'm supposed to
>be impressed by this?

I attended some of those FIMAV shows also.  I don't
know much about electro-acoustic music but it seems
like it doesn't lend itself to performance.  Perhaps
it's something I and others will just have to grow to
understand or maybe it's really just a type of music
that exists better on record.  I mean, you don't
usually watch an artist paint the painting, you view
it when it's done and there's really no performance
involved.  Could be that that's the way that sort of
thing works best.  Just an idea.  O'Rourke by the way
had a personal best in Tetris during the performance.
:~)


- ---Ryan Novak of Wisconsin
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:00:00 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Zorn List Digest V2 #739

Hope I'm not too late to jump in on the violin/'cello thing, but I had a
couple recommendations I didn't see thrown out:

Henry Threadgill's album "Makin' A Move" features two cuts with a trio of
cellos (Dierdre Murray, who was a member of his Sextett, Michelle Kinney and
Akua Dixon Tourre) against his sax. On the second of the tracks, there's also
a two guitarists. No standout performances by any individual to my ears, but
great stuff nonetheless. And Murray is certainly enjoyable in Threadgill's
earlier works, like the Murray/Kinney/Threadgill/Amina Claudine Myers (on
harpsichord)/Tony Cedrus (accordion) track on "Song Out of My Trees" and
playing a more anchoring role on the Sextett albums.

    As for violin, I don't remember seeing a mention of Mark Feldman,
presumably because everyone here knows him, but I did want to throw in a word
for Dave Douglas's "Charms of the Night Sky" especially. (On a related note,
someone asked when the new Dave Douglas was coming out Stateside. It should
be out already, as of last Tuesday. Check your finer local record shops.) I
also enjoy Ramsey Ameen on violin in Cecil Taylor's 1978-1979 Unit albums
(Cecil Taylor Unit, 3 Phasis, and One Too Many Salty Swift and Not Goodbye).
A great sextet all around, but he's one I consistently focus on in the music.

    Also would like to second a couple recommendations that have cropped up
lately. Braxton's "Eight (+3) Tristano Compositions" is a killer. I do prefer
the Monk and Parker tributes, mainly because I prefer Monk and Parker, but I
really enjoy the Tristano album and and learning to really enjoy Tristano
himself, which will probably only add to the Braxton experience. Someone
recommended the Jimmy Giuffre trio, which I have also been playing a lot
lately. Gorgeous, superb stuff. And not just the ones under Giuffre's
leadership - try Bley's album "The Life of a Trio." Equally good, with 25 or
so years under the bridge since the last trio albums. Great stuff.

Patrick Brown
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #740
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