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Zorn List Digest       Saturday, August 14 1999       Volume 02 : Number 737



In this issue:
-
       Kristallnacht (was why are we so sick?)
       Re: Kristallnacht (was why are we so sick?)
       Re: since i've been gone/Leimgruber
       Re: since i've been gone/Leimgruber
       Alva
       Tohjinbo
       Re: genre-hopping
       stop now
       recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: Kristallnacht (was why are we so sick?)
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: Feldman/Puschnig
       Cramps
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)
       upcoming otomo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:03:35 GMT
From: "uranus musickness" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kristallnacht (was why are we so sick?)

Think about this, if the people of
> > Germany would have had guns around World War II, the jews would have
>been
> > able to defend themselves somewhat against the Nazi's.
>
>Ah, a Nazi reference. This conversation has now reached the Godwin point
>in near record time.
>http://www.landfield.com/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

Whoa, now that IS cool. Now I see how we can relate this to music. Does
Godwin's law apply to Zorn's Kristallnacht?

>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:22:00 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Kristallnacht (was why are we so sick?)

On Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 08:03:35PM +0000, uranus musickness wrote:
> Whoa, now that IS cool. Now I see how we can relate this to music. Does
> Godwin's law apply to Zorn's Kristallnacht?

Probably not; the CD is not an intrinsically conversational medium.

- --
| [e-mail]           http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt |
| Latest CD: Shekhinah: The Presence     http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:22:08 -0400
From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: since i've been gone/Leimgruber

>
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:15:47 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: since i've been gone/Leimgruber
>
>What Leimgruber on Victo?
>
>A "record" of his concert with Hauser/Crispell/Leandre at FIMAV?
>
>I haven't seen/heard anything about its existence. But it was a great
>concert, especially because I saw the three minus Marilyn in TO the week
>before and Crispell really spurred Urs to do "something" in Vic'ville.
>
>Ken Waxman
>


I haven't seen this yet, but also heard about it from another source (who I
think got one from Crispell, so maybe it isn't officially out yet).

I too was at the Music Gallery show, and found it quite boring, as much as
I am a fan of all three players. I chalked it up to the fact that their
plane landed just a few hours before they hit the stage.

Hey Ken, are you going to be in Guelph this year? Pretty good line-up, even
if you don't like Han Bennink : ).

Dan

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:57:18 -0400
From: "Rick Lopez" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: since i've been gone/Leimgruber

>From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
>To: [e-mail]
>Cc: [e-mail]
>Subject: Re: since i've been gone/Leimgruber
>Date: Fri, Aug 13, 1999, 11:15 AM
>

>What Leimgruber on Victo?
>
>A "record" of his concert with Hauser/Crispell/Leandre at FIMAV?
>
>I haven't seen/heard anything about its existence. But it was a great
>concert, especially because I saw the three minus Marilyn in TO the week
>before and Crispell really spurred Urs to do "something" in Vic'ville.

Right here:

http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/CRISPELL.disc.html#98.05.15

Is wonderful.

Rrrr

Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, William Parker, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp,
David S. Ware, and Reggie Workman Discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,
 at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

- ----------

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:18:16 -0400
From: "Nirav Soni" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Alva

I remeber someone asking about the band Alva form Tampa, Florida a while
back. They have a new album coming out on Menlo Park Records in September.
Check out the website: http://www.menloparkrecordings. The cd and press
release are at the Ink19 office (it just came in the last few days), so if
anyone wants more info, I'll post it on Monday.

Cheers,
Nirav
- --
OnNow- Kip Hanrahan- Desire Develops an Edge
"Don't try to make me consistent. I am learning all the time."  - R.
Buckminster Fuller



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ryan Novak <[e-mail]>
Subject: Tohjinbo

> Speaking of Derek Bailey, whats up with these Ruins>
Cds with bailey on it?

This reminded that I wanted to ask if the second
Bailey/Ruins CD is like the first at all.  I liked
Saisoro but got bored with it quickly.  Ruins seemed a
little too understated or something on that one.  I
couldn't really hear the bass much at all.

Thanks,

Ryan Novak

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:33:29 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: genre-hopping

At 01:17 PM 8/13/99 +0200, Jeroen de Boer wrote:
>While listening to music with a friend (ranging from Death's _The
>Sound of Perseverance_ to Uri Caine's _The Sidewalks of New York_ and
>Dave Douglas' _Magic Triangle_, plus of course lots more, we came to
>the question whether atonal metal or klezmer metal existed.

Wouldn't Fushitsusha fit into the atonal metal camp?


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:39:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "m. rizzi" <[e-mail]>
Subject: stop now

>I am sorry to hear that you are scared of people who believe in the right to
>own guns. If the free people don't own guns, then the only people that have
>them are the government and criminals.

    This conversational thread is now officially
    off-topic, please cease and desist, now.

    mike
    zorn-list-owner-and-cliche-killer


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:33:16 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: recent goodies (otomo edition)

I finally snagged one of the new live Ground Zero albums (BTW, the listener
looking for more like Naked City could do far worse than GZ, especially the
first one), and it's both a fine addition to the canon and a clear
transition between Otomo's GZ efforts and his more recent electronic forays.

Ground Zero, GIG Last Concert (Amoebic).  Three pieces with no crowd noise
(a plus).  This album features an expanded GZ lineup, featuring three sax
players, four people on electronics or synthesizer (including Sachiko M),
two drummers, bass and koto/shamisen players, and Otomo on guitar and
turntables.  The first of the three pieces is all electronics.  I was
reminded of Klaus Schultz at times, especially the albums where he gigged
with Stomu Yamashita's GO group, but the hindsight of having heard Filament
and ISO makes this piece gives this piece a context which was porbably
unavailable at the time.  The second piece starts off with a thunderous
clattering, kind of like the loud parts of Consume Red spread out for a
long time, with the saxes trying desperately to be heard above the din.
The last piece is in fact Consume Red, but the new electronics provide a
low rumble throughout, it takes longer to get going, and the finale is a
blast of sine waves.  It's hard to imagine this album as an introduction to
GZ, but it is *much* better than the Cassiber remix album, definitely worth
getting for all GZ enthusiasts.

I.S.O Live (Zero Gravity) and Filament 2 (For 4 Ears).  Otomo and Sachiko
have moved into headphonaut territory lately, with the Filament and I.S.O
projects.  I panned Filament 1 in this forum some time ago, but both of
these albums are much more interesting.  Filament 2 adds Gunter Muller
(Voice Crack etc.) on electronics and 'selected drums', and ISO adds
another electronics player (Ichiraku Yoshimitsu, unknown to me).  ISO is
more active (and still without crowd noise), but both are interesting and
worth hearing.  (A sidebar on Filament 1:  a friend of mine with VU meters
on his stereo reported that during some of the 'silent' parts of Filament 1
the VU meters are going wild.)

After I listened to GZ Live yesterday, I put on Henri Pousseur's album on
BVHaast, in the same series as Luc Ferrari's, documenting many of the early
pioneers in musique concrete.  I was amazed to hear many of the same sounds
on Pousseur's album as there were in the electronic portions of GZ. and it
gave me pause as I considered to what extent electronic music has changed
(or not) over the last forty years.  Even with the advent of all this high
technology, good musicians make the same gestures, the same sounds.  What
happened to the 'anxiety of influence'?  Are current musicians doomed to
repeat the exploratory motions of the earliest musicians in the field?
Have we gotten nowhere?  I consider Otomo to be extremely talented, but was
very surprised to make this connection (although I have to say that I think
Consume Red is one of the masterpieces of our time -- distinctive and
instantly recognizable, bringing together so many different aspects of
contemporary music).


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 22:49:04 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Kristallnacht (was why are we so sick?)

In a message dated 8/13/99 4:22:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[e-mail] writes:

>  the CD is not an intrinsically conversational medium. - Great name for an
album!!

The Whoa, now that IS cool. Now I see how we can relate this to music. Does
> Godwin's law apply to Zorn's Kristallnacht?

The interesting thing is that only through the music of Zorn and the
Kezmatics have I rediscovered my Judaism.  I read the Torah with a modern
soundtrack.    Life is a circle, just don't get caught in the middle.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:08:40 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

a couple of points/comments/additions to Caleb's Otomo reviews:

<< Gunter Muller (Voice Crack etc.) >>

if this is supposed to mean that Muller is in Voice Crack, he's not, althoug=
h=20
he has played with them and all three musicians are Swiss. VC is, and always=20
has been, Andy Guhl and Norbert Moslang.

Muller runs For 4 Ears, which has been putting out as consistently good=20
records as anyone around for the last few years. I've seen him live, both=20
with Christian Marclay and Jim O'Rourke, and he was very good both times. he=20
has a couple of other CDs in the works which should interest people here:=20

on Amoebic, Masahiko Okura, G=FCnter M=FCller, Taku Sugimoto, and Yoshihide=20
Otomo. Metal Tastes like Orange. Secret Recordings 1. AMO-VA-04, to be=20
released August or September 1999.=20

and for my label, Erstwhile, Muller is recording a duo record with Le Quan=20
Ninh in the fall, hopefully to be released around the end of the year.

<<After I listened to GZ Live yesterday, I put on Henri Pousseur's album on
BVHaast, in the same series as Luc Ferrari's, documenting many of the early
pioneers in musique concrete.  I was amazed to hear many of the same sounds
on Pousseur's album as there were in the electronic portions of GZ. and it
gave me pause as I considered to what extent electronic music has changed
(or not) over the last forty years.  Even with the advent of all this high
technology, good musicians make the same gestures, the same sounds.  What
happened to the 'anxiety of influence'?  >>

check out the Gottfried Michael Koenig, also on BVHaast, to hear a composer=20
even farther ahead of his time. it's my favorite of the series.

my answer to this was going to be that it was like comparing apples and=20
oranges, since one was carefully put together in the studio, while the other=20
was an ad hoc live performance, improvised on the spot. the problem is that=20
Paraboles-mix, the 40 minute centerpiece on the Pousseur record, was produce=
d=20
in real time. so I'll try a different answer.

live electronic improv is a subgenre where the leading musicians are just no=
w=20
able to put together sets filled with interesting ideas from start to finish=
.=20
having seen Jim O'Rourke perform duo sets on the Powerbook with three very=20
different musicians in the past few weeks (Christian Marclay, Peter Rehberg,=20
and Ikue Mori), it was very illuminating to hear how different the three set=
s=20
sounded, and how different O'Rourke sounded within them. he writes different=20
software for each musician he plays with, and the range of these three sets=20
was vast, from sampladelia to noisy glitchworks to an avant take on triphop,=20
respectively, although clearly those are short and simplistic descriptions.=20
it's just in the last few months that I've started to see fully formed=20
electronic improv shows, with as many ideas from start to finish as a good t=
o=20
great acoustic improv set. the two that stand out in a sea of mediocre to=20
good ones are the ISO show in Victo in May and the solo Peter Rehberg set at=20
Tonic this past Sunday night. I guess that my point is while there may be=20
similarities between today's electronica and the best musique concrete, I=20
think you're watching a genre on the rise. for instance, seeing how far Otom=
o=20
has come from that putrid Filament record on Extreme to where he is now with=20
ISO in a year or two is remarkable.

<<Are current musicians doomed to
repeat the exploratory motions of the earliest musicians in the field?
Have we gotten nowhere?>>

so, my answers here end up being "maybe, but it's not an endpoint, just a=20
step in a journey." and "maybe the current musicians have finally caught up=20
to classic electroacoustic music in some ways." I think, when the definitive=20
musical history of the twentieth century is writte down the road, that=20
composers like Pierre Henry, Bernard Parmegiani, and Iannis Xenakis will loo=
m=20
as large as anyone. and the fact that current electronica is exploring=20
similar territory, albeit from a different direction, is refreshing in my=20
eyes. now, if it gets stuck here for a few years, that's a different story.=20
but, I think you'll see major advances in this genre in the near future,=20
hopefully a fair amount of it to be documented on Erstwhile.

Jon
www.erstwhilerecords.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 01:57:20 -0400
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Feldman/Puschnig

[e-mail] wrote:

> A couple days ago there was an interesting thread on violin/cello, but
> no one mentioned the Mark Feldman/Wolfang Puschnig "Spaces" on Emarcy.
> Are there any opinions or was it just forgetfulness?

My guess is that it's because the record you mention seems not to have
been released here in the US to the best of my knowledge (and don't go
shouting about provincialism - the global market is not yet a reality,
even if the internet is making serious inroads, and the bulk of the Z-list
seems to be in the US at present).  And as I'm salivating at the very
prospect, why don't you offer your own opinion to make us Americans even
more jealous?

Steve Smith
[e-mail]
NP - some Bravo TV documentary about the Pretenders


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 02:19:16 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Cramps

is there a web site for this Italian label anywhere? I can't find one.

thanks,
Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 07:35:36 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

Jon,

Thanks for your comments.  I knew somehow I was wrong about Muller's
heritage, but I was a little tired and didn't bother to check.  My
apologies.  And everyone says the Koenig is excellent, so I'll have to
break down and get that one next time I order from Cadence.  And indeed I
was listening to Paraboles.

>live electronic improv is a subgenre where the leading musicians are just
now
>able to put together sets filled with interesting ideas from start to
finish.
>having seen Jim O'Rourke perform duo sets on the Powerbook with three very
>different musicians in the past few weeks (Christian Marclay, Peter Rehberg,
>and Ikue Mori), it was very illuminating to hear how different the three
sets
>sounded, and how different O'Rourke sounded within them.

For the most part I really enjoy the live computer music, it occupies most
of my listening time these days, and I don't really think GZ sounds like
1950s concrete.  But I have been wondering when live & improvising
electroacoustic musicians will have the same distinctive character as our
best acoustic musicians.  For example, we all recognize Zorn's sax playing
immediately, in whatever context he plays.  GZ was recognizable because of
the multi-layered chaos.  And although I can think of a few composers
working in the field who have achieved this quality (e.g., Bernhard Gunter,
Paul Dolden, Francois Bayle), I'm stuck when it comes to improvisers.
Would you have recognized O'Rourke's playing if you hadn't known he was
there?  More generally, what musicians in the improvising computer field
have (or will have) the distinct musical identities similar to the
jazz-based musicians we know and love?



- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:08:56 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: recent goodies (otomo edition)

Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

> ISO adds another electronics player (Ichiraku Yoshimitsu, unknown to me).

Check out his page at the Japanese Free Improvisors page
(http://www2.gol.com/users/miyuki/index.html).

There are two discs with Ichiraku that I can highly recommend: I.S.O.'s
self-titled disc and Omoide Hatoba's 'Vuoy'. His solo disc on Zero Gravity was
pretty boring, I thought.

                        -Tom Pratt

listening to: Fela Kuti - Opposite People / Sorrow Tears And Blood (Barclay)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:20:41 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: upcoming otomo

Check out these upcoming Otomo discs on P-Vine:

Otomo, Yoshihide. The Ending Theme Song of Lupin the Third.
    12" SP. P-Vine Records, to be released August 25, 1999.

Otomo, Yoshihide. Otomo Yoshihide Plays Music of Yamashita
    Takeo. P-Vine Records, to be released September 10, 1999.

Otomo, Yoshihide. Playgirl. 12" SP. P-Vine Records, to be
    released October 10, 1999.

Does anybody know anything about these?

                -Tom Pratt


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #737
*******************************


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