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Zorn List Digest         Sunday, July 11 1999         Volume 02 : Number 708



In this issue:
-
       Masada discs?
       pitch matrices
       Re: pitch matrices
       Masada musical questions
       Iron Path
       Re: some downtowners go pop
       Re: Masada musical questions
       Kinky Tribute
       Re: Masada musical questions
       Re: some downtowners go pop
       Re: some downtowners go pop
       1st impressions
       Re: Masada musical questions
       Zorn article
       looking for easy listening stockhausen
       Re: looking for easy listening stockhausen

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Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 02:47:30 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Masada discs?

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I have Masada 1,2,6, live in Jeruselum, and a bootlege video from 1994 in
Oklahoma (all are amazing).  Which of masada disc would one recomend?  I know
Joey Baron said in an old modern drummer interview that his best playing was
on 5&6.  Please give a little reason why for the selection so I know what to
expect.


Thanks,

Aaron Solomon

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I have Masada 1,2,6, live in Jeruselum, and a bootlege video from 1994 in
Oklahoma (all are amazing).  Which of masada disc would one recomend?  I know
Joey Baron said in an old modern drummer interview that his best playing was
on 5&6.  Please give a little reason why for the selection so I know what to
expect.


Thanks,

Aaron Solomon

- --part1_9521e414.24b99802_boundary--

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:44:29 +0200
From: "Artur Nowak" <[e-mail]>
Subject: pitch matrices

Hi Philozorners!

I'm reading Zorn's notes to the Zornfest @ Kintting Factory back in 1993
(http://www.nwu.edu/jazz/performance/zornfest/) and I found that Zorn is
using "pitch matrices" few times. Does it mean something special? One of his
methods / techniques of composition?

    __________________________________________________________________
    Artur Nowak [arno AT emd.pl]
    www.emd.pl - Discography of Bill Frisell


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 03:41:32 -0400
From: "wetboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: pitch matrices

- -----Original Message-----
From: Artur Nowak <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 3:24 AM
Subject: pitch matrices


I found that Zorn is
>using "pitch matrices" few times. Does it mean something special? One of
his
>methods / techniques of composition?
>
>    __________________________________________________________________
>    Artur Nowak [arno AT emd.pl]
>    www.emd.pl - Discography of Bill Frisell


this might b the pitch axis idea that was employed heavily by i believe it
was bartok. after that more and more people picked up on this. if it is
something else, u got me hanging.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:11:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Masada musical questions

I was wondering if anyone else noticed the description of the scales Zorn
used for writing the songs that was given in the New Yorker article....I
think the scale degrees are wrong but I want to make sure I'm not looking
at it wrong or something.  It said there were two main scales, one a major
scale with a flat second (I think) and a minor scale with a flat fifth
(can't remember exactly, just that it seemed wrong).  When I've figured
things out off records I've just found the harmonic minor scale (1 2 b3 4
5 b6 7) and another which I think is like a major with a flat second and a
flat sixth, but not quite.

Also, there's a beat in a lot of the songs that divides up into 3-3-2
which I've heard in more traditional klezmer music. Can anyone tell me
what that's called.

Sorry for boring people with this question - anyone can feel free to
respond off the list, but I'd appreciate any answers b/c I'm kind of
confused, not having any real background outside of high school guitar
lessons and western/major/minor type scales.

Thanks,

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:57:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Iron Path

> That's the one on Virgin? Strange, you might be one of the few to like
> it. It has been systematically dismissed or ignored by most early fans
> of Last Exit. But this was before listeners were acustomed to ambient
> (which, if I remember well, you can detect some elements in IRON PATH).
>
> Are there other people on the list who would advice that one?

Someone recommended that to me as being THE Last Exit album a few years
ago, but for me it is THE Last Exit album I've never gotten into.  It's
not a major label thing as someone suggested, or even a strict prejudice
against Laswell (I really like the Threadgill albums on Columbia for
example); its more, for me, a kind of mode of Laswell's work that I just
don't like, having to do with that type of 'smooth' production.  A lot
of his other stuff has the same effect on me. On the other hand, the live
albums sound great - at least the first three, which are all that I've
got.

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 08:37:26 -0400
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some downtowners go pop

>In a message dated 7/9/99 6:24:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>[e-mail] writes:
>  How
>about a list of music to empty parties by?

    I've always relied on....
Trout Mask Replica--Captain Beefheart
Monkey-Pockie-Boo--Sonny Sharrock
Anything by Ivor Cutler
and of course....
The world As It Is Today--The Art Bears
     In fact, when my ex-girlfriend had over people she wanted to
leave, she would casually tell me "I think its time for Dagmar".


RW
whose college roommate used to clear me out of the room with
Hawkwind's "Sonic Attack"



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:05:05 -0400
From: "wetboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada musical questions

- -----Original Message-----
From: William York <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Sunday, July 11, 1999 5:36 AM
Subject: Masada musical questions


It said there were two main scales, one a major
>scale with a flat second (I think) and a minor scale with a flat fifth
>(can't remember exactly, just that it seemed wrong).  When I've figured
>things out off records I've just found the harmonic minor scale (1 2 b3 4
>5 b6 7) and

another which I think is like a major with a flat second and a
>flat sixth, but not quite.


this sounds like it could b a phrygian dominant scale. i think the phryg.
dom scale has a b2, b6, and a b7. if i really wanted 2 b thorough i would
check my notes from school (hehe pardon the pun) but its early here. i'll
get back 2 u on this one. the other scales r probably different modes of
either harmonic or melodic minor.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:15:52 +0200
From: Stephen Fruitman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Kinky Tribute

>I totally agree that Shelly Manne and Kinky Friedman need tributes.

Kinky got done recently, and quite nicely too. The CD is called _Pearls in
the Snow_ and features a wide range of (primarily country) talent;
highlights include Willie Nelson=B4s stirring rendition of "Ride =B4Em, Jewb=
oy"
and contributions by Tom Waits, Lyle Lovett, and a slew of others, both
well- and lesser-known. The CD can be ordered through amazon.com.

Stephen Fruitman
Dept of Historical Studies
Umea University
SE-901 87 Umea Sweden



- ------------------------------------------------------

Bj=F6rn Olsson,
Inst. f=F6r id=E9historia,
Ume=E5 universitet
901 87 Ume=E5
tel. [phone] fax 143374



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:25:14 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada musical questions

On Sat, Jul 10, 1999 at 08:11:36PM -0400, William York wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone else noticed the description of the scales Zorn
> used for writing the songs that was given in the New Yorker article....I
> think the scale degrees are wrong but I want to make sure I'm not looking
> at it wrong or something.  It said there were two main scales, one a major
> scale with a flat second (I think) and a minor scale with a flat fifth
> (can't remember exactly, just that it seemed wrong).  When I've figured
> things out off records I've just found the harmonic minor scale (1 2 b3 4
> 5 b6 7) and another which I think is like a major with a flat second and a
> flat sixth, but not quite.

I haven't listened closely to see if Zorn uses it, but that scale that
you describe is often called the Jewish Minor (though the 3rd and 7th
are major, so go figure...) I've also heard it called in Arabic music
the hijaz mode (though I've also heard that term used differently.
The easiest depiction of it would be D Eb F# G A Bb C# D. It's
quite versatile, as scales go.

- --
| [e-mail]          http://www.metatronpress.com/~jzitt |
| Latest Solo CD: Gentle Entropy         http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:28:48 CDT
From: "samuel yrui" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some downtowners go pop

jzitt wrote:
  n.p.: Alan Licht: Rabbi Sky. (Hmm, the liner notes seem to describe
much more interesting music than I'm hearing...)



why does that happen so much?  people with their deep liner notes.  i'm sick
of reading things like: "to me, this is less a piece than a process."  then
they'll go on to talk about all the myth they researched and the symbolic
meanings it had and the experiences it came from.  but then when you listen
to it you realize they put so much time giving their thoughts mystic meaning
that they haven't paid any attention to the fact that they have not advanced
_musically_.  they spent so much time trying to create something new that
their music does nothing new.  (i guess i have David Byrne's "The Forest" in
mind.  and any other record by him, or any other "new age" record that my
mom owns.)   anyway, just blathering.

            -samuel yrui


n.p.: Alan Licht: Rabbi Sky. (Hmm, the liner notes seem to describe
much more interesting music than I'm hearing...)



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:47:03 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some downtowners go pop

On Sun, Jul 11, 1999 at 10:28:48AM -0500, samuel yrui wrote:

> why does that happen so much?  people with their deep liner notes.  i'm sick
> of reading things like: "to me, this is less a piece than a process."

If you read Steve Reich's "Music as a Gradual Process" or much of what
Brian Eno has written, you'll discover that such a statement is often
not doubletalk. I find from my own writing that a lot of what I compose
are, indeed, processes, of which any particular recording is only one
instance. The same is very true of Zorn's game piece, such as Cobra.

> then
> they'll go on to talk about all the myth they researched and the symbolic
> meanings it had and the experiences it came from.

Yeah, this does happen. While the research into symbols is often an
important part of how the composer figures out what/how to write, it's
sometimes hard to hear when abstracted into (especially instrumental)
music.

>  but then when you listen
> to it you realize they put so much time giving their thoughts mystic meaning
> that they haven't paid any attention to the fact that they have not advanced
> _musically_.

What do you mean by "advanced"?

In the case of Rabbi Sky, as in much of Tony Conrad's work, they start
with an interest in particular sonic/musical phenomena, but then clutter
it with sounds that are so noisy (I don't know what the sound at the
beginning and end of the Licht is, but Conrad's exceedingly scratchy
violin tone negates the effects of tunings and undertones that he
claims to be exploring, since the pitches are heavily compromised by
the other aspects of the sound) that the point they are trying to
explore is lost.

>  they spent so much time trying to create something new that
> their music does nothing new.

New as compared to what? Do you consider novelty a prerequisite for
interesting music? What about work within existing traditions?



> (i guess i have David Byrne's "The Forest" in
> mind.  and any other record by him, or any other "new age" record that my
> mom owns.)

I agree with "The Forest", which I find just tedious. However, you might
be interested in Byrne's "The Catherine Wheel" or "The Knee Plays". Come to
think of it, I can't think of any Byrne that might even remotely be
called "new age".

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with another composer/group-leader
recently. She said that it was often much easier to teach her music to
older (40+) workshoppers, etc, than to those in high school and college,
since by then the people had often dropped much of the genre-related
tunnel visions and become more open to a wider rangle of musics.

I find that only now (at 40) am I starting to clue into what was good
about musics I'd ignored or dissed in college.
- --
| [e-mail]          http://www.metatronpress.com/~jzitt |
| Latest Solo CD: Gentle Entropy         http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 99 12:49:17 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: 1st impressions

Hmmm... First listens do not always make for fave discs, but still strong
memories. When I was in college, listening to SYouth, BSurfers, Trane and Mingus
(i.e., new rock, old jazz), my uncle gave me his copy of "Classic Guide to
Strategy." Me and my roommate listened to it every day. We hated it, but we
couldn't stop playing it. In central Illinois, at least, it was shocking as shit
that anyone would put out such a record. Then I heard an NPR story about Naked
City and The President and they played "Batman," something much easier for me to
unnerstand. Then the Spillaine excerpt on the Nonesuch comp sold me. Spillaine
is maybe my first disc that sparked a revelation in JZ. And Classic Guide, well,
I think about those afternoons with my old roommate far often than I play the
album.

np: "D'a' Bronx Sity Chicken Machine Vol. II" by Kreamy 'Lectric Santa



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:30:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Corey Marc Fogel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Masada musical questions

On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Joseph Zitt wrote:

> I haven't listened closely to see if Zorn uses it, but that scale that
> you describe is often called the Jewish Minor (though the 3rd and 7th

or "Freygish" mode, i think.

> are major, so go figure...) I've also heard it called in Arabic music
> the hijaz mode (though I've also heard that term used differently.
> The easiest depiction of it would be D Eb F# G A Bb C# D. It's
> quite versatile, as scales go.

the C as opposed to C# is often the difference between Jewish and arabic
music though.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:43:52 -0500
From: Diego Gruber <[e-mail]>
Subject: Zorn article

Is there some kind of limit to the size of the messages you can post to
the list? well i recently posted an article which  i translated from an
argentinian magazine, it was 12k and i haven't seen it appear. Anyway
ppl interested on this article better e-mail me privately, it's very
good and it deals mainly with ZOrn's game pieces, as well as with some
general aspects of his music.

Diego



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 20:35:01 +0200
From: "Stefan Verstraeten" <[e-mail]>
Subject: looking for easy listening stockhausen

i noticed that that are quite some people here on this list are quite
familiar with stochhausens' work (thatnk you for the www.stockhausen.org
link, by the way)

anayway, a friend of me is looking for a particular work by stockhausen. She
told that there is a cd that is available through stockhausen verlag (so
available through the website) that contains string music (she thinks it is
only by violins) and seems to be very easylistening music.

So, does anyone of you has any idea what cd this might be???

ps I forgot to mention that she read the existence of this cd in an article
in the wire (stockhausen for beginners), but i don't have this issue...

Can anybody help???

Best wishes

stefan verstraeten



- -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:12:58 -0400
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: looking for easy listening stockhausen

At 08:35 PM 7/11/99 +0200, Stefan Verstraeten wrote:
>
>anayway, a friend of me is looking for a particular work by stockhausen. She
>told that there is a cd that is available through stockhausen verlag (so
>available through the website) that contains string music (she thinks it is
>only by violins) and seems to be very easylistening music.
>
>So, does anyone of you has any idea what cd this might be???

KS hasn't written anything I'd call easy listening, and not even very much
for a traditional orchestra, but there is a piece called Trans which has a
wall of strings (both literally and sonically) behind which other sound
events creep out. His orchestral work Inori is for a large orchestra, and
as I remember somewhat slow moving, and not as difficult as some of his
other works.  It's also possible that there is a recording of hiz Zodiac
melodies (originally composed for music box) played by a string instrument
(or instruments), but the Zodiac melodies, which form a large part of his
more recent work, are part of the late works which nobody likes.

At 10:19 PM 7/10/99 CDT, samuel yrui wrote:
>
>where do i begin when it comes to Karlheinz Stockhausen?  can any one give
>me some info on where to start w/ albums and whatnot?  i've never heard
>anything by him yet.  i can't find anyone i know who's ever even heard of
>him.
>

In answer to this original question, Hymnen was my starting point, and I'll
second the recommendations for Stimmung and the excerpts of From The Seven
Days on Harmonia Mundi.  There are a number of available recordings of
Kontakte, an early piece for piano, percussion, and tape.  I can vouch for
the one with David Tudor and Christoph Caskel on Wergo, but I've read good
reviews of a more recent recording with William Winant on percussion (can't
remember the label, check maybe at Forced Exposure).  If you like
contemporary piano music, the piano pieces up to #11 are interesting; my
favorites are 8, 9, and 10.  When you win the lottery, get the complete
From the Seven Days, Hymnen, and Telemusik from Stockhausen Verlag.
Telemusik in particular is one of my all time favorite musique concrete
pieces.

KS is one of the great masters of 20th century music.  While I appreciate
why he took back all the rights to his CDs, it has had an unfortunate side
effect of making his music unavailable except to enlightened libraries and
individuals with lots of disposable income.  His music is definitely worth
tracking down, particularly (as Jon mentioned) his work up to about 1970
(Mantra for two pianos and live electronics, available on  New Albion, is
often considered his last interesting piece, although I wouldn't pass up a
chance to see some of his opera, on which he's been working for the last 25
years).


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

It is pretty obvious that the debasement of the human mind caused by a
constant flow of fraudulent advertising is no trivial thing.  There is more
than one way to conquer a country.

- -- Raymond Chandler

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #708
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