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Zorn List Digest         Friday, July 9 1999         Volume 02 : Number 704



In this issue:
-
       Re: rashaan roland kirk
       To Do?
       Re: some downtowners go pop
       Re: Email Legislation
       Re: environment 4 sextet
       Re: some downtowners go pop
       KISS: Great Jewish Music! (was Some Downtowners go pop)
       Re: rahsaan roland kirk
       Re: some downtowners go pop
       Re: rahsaan roland kirk
       Re: some downtowners go pop
       Re: Email Legislation
       Re: KISS: Great Jewish Music! (was Some Downtowners go pop)
       Re: some downtowners go pop
       Re: KISS: Great Jewish Music! (was Some Downtowners go pop)
       rahsaan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:09:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: rashaan roland kirk

Volunteered Slavery
The Inflated Tear
Rahsaan, Rahsaan
Boogie Woogie String Along For Real
Blacknuss

(working for memory and LPs -- check CD availability)

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]



On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Jason Tors wrote:

> What are his quitessential works?
>
> I have rip rig and panic and kirk's work with jack mcduff.
>
> thanks~!
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:10:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Art Andrews <[e-mail]>
Subject: To Do?

Hey everybody, this is my first post.  I've enjoyed your posts the past
week or so (the time since I subscribed).

I've seen some cool shows the past few weeks including MMW,
Medeski/Ribot/Baron, JZ, and am going to see the Lounge Lizards tonight.
However nothing in the way of live downtown music cought my eye while
parusing upcoming events the next few weeks.  Any suggestions?  I
generally like downtown jazz, interesting straight-ahead, and indie/alt
rock, but have an open mind.

- -Art



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:39:51 -0400
From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some downtowners go pop

Ken Waxman wrote:

> Right, exactly. Just the way Chuck Mangione records have lead people
to
> Miles Davis and then Roy Campbell and Kenny G. discs have brought
people
> to John Coltrane and Charles Gayle. Not to mention the thousands of
> Billy Joel fans who now jam Cecil Taylor concerts.

as other followups have pointed out, there are situations where the
music of any particular artist can lead down entirely expected paths.
(peter chriss-> gene krupa (i love it!))

but here's a related question: is it, uh, 'common' that people who like
one type of music (say, smooth jazz) don't like other types of music (
say, heavy metal)? as implied the above quote....there's no way a fan of
billy joel would be interested in cecil taylor.

i ask this because people are always telling me that i have diverse
musical tastes...so diverse that they just can't belive some of the
stuff i listen to (i've been described as 'musically promisuous'). is it
so hard to belive that i can enjoy john zorn, jack dejohnette, david s.
ware...as well as shania twain,lucy kaplansky, and letters to cleo?

i suppose that given the huge sales of pop music vs. jazz that there
isn't much of a crossover (and let's leave smooth jazz out of it...for
me at least).

mark
(today's listening so far: P. Glass - Kundun, Jack DeJohnette - Oneness,
Soundtrack: 10 Things I Hate About You)

- --
Mark Saleski - [e-mail]
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace.
- --Dalai Lama



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:41:43 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Email Legislation

On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:05:32 PDT  "robert ludington" wrote:
>
> peace & anarchy ;)
> robert ludington

How do you reconcile anarchy and being on a government funded Internet
backbone?

    Patrice (just curious).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:41:16 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: environment 4 sextet

In a message dated 7/9/99 11:04:09 AM, [e-mail] writes:

<< so i'm in boston this past week and i saw a cd that had the same lineup but
a different cover. i don't remember how many tracks were on the one i saw in
boston, but it said something about usa. might it have been "usa concerts",
which is a different cd, but also an ictus reissue? should i call my friend
in boston and have her grab it 4 me? >>

Zorn is only on one track of this, about four minutes long, if I recall
correctly. look at the individual track listing if you can before you pull
the trigger on this one; the personnel is a bit misleading.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:50:59 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some downtowners go pop

On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:39:51 -0400  Mark Saleski wrote:
>
> mark
> (today's listening so far: P. Glass - Kundun, Jack DeJohnette - Oneness,
> Soundtrack: 10 Things I Hate About You)

Did anybody buy CIVIL WARS by Glass and Wilson? Since the composition was
written almost 20 years ago, I have high expectections for it. Any opinion
before I take the dive?

    Thanks,

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:53:15 GMT
From: "uranus musickness" <[e-mail]>
Subject: KISS: Great Jewish Music! (was Some Downtowners go pop)

> > it was
> > wanting to be the drummer in Kiss that led me to music in the
> > first place.
>
>Speaking of which, when is that "Great Jewish Music: Chaim Witz" album ever
>coming out? <chuckle>
>
>Later,
>Ben
>

>Hey, good memory, Ben!  And I *still* maintain that it's a fine idea for
>the
>Tzadik series.  You listening, Zorn?  "Great Jewish Music: Stanley Eisen &
>Chaim Witz" - YOU WANTED THE BEST - YOU *GOT* THE BEST!!!  Think of the
>possibilities!
>
>Steve Smith
>
About six months ago I was all over the defunkt Tzadik message board begging
for Zorn and company to do a Great Jewish  Music set for KISS. A lot of
people probaqbly hate me for that...HA! HA! They may be completely lame
musicians, but the songs they wrote and the persona they had were very
important to me (and others) in finding a love for music.

Come on Zorn!!!!

Long live Chaim Witz and Stanley Eisen!!!

"get up and get your grandma out of here!!!"


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:54:55 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: rahsaan roland kirk

In a message dated 7/9/99 11:06:40 AM, [e-mail]
writes:

<< RRP is my favorite among his group works, but my all-time fave Kirk is on
his
"Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata", a virtual solo album (there's a
teeny
bit of piano and percussion by others) released on Atlantic in 1972, but
currently available as one disc of the 3CD set "Dog Years in the Fourth Ring"
on
32Jazz. Some amazing, earthy playing therein.

Also great are 'The Inflated Tear', 'Volunteered Slavery', 'Bright Moments'
and
'Blacknuss'. >>

I'd agree with all of these, but my favorite single Kirk disc is Prepare
Thyself To Deal With A Miracle, which is available as one of the four (all
very good) albums collected on the 32Jazz set Aces Back to Back.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:56:57 -0400
From: Mark Saleski <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some downtowners go pop

yes! i have it.

it's pretty good. not as, um, 'glassy' as other things he's done.

if you liked 'La Belle et la Bete' then you'll like this one.

mark

"Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:39:51 -0400  Mark Saleski wrote:
> >
> > mark
> > (today's listening so far: P. Glass - Kundun, Jack DeJohnette - Oneness,
> > Soundtrack: 10 Things I Hate About You)
>
> Did anybody buy CIVIL WARS by Glass and Wilson? Since the composition was
> written almost 20 years ago, I have high expectections for it. Any opinion
> before I take the dive?
>
>         Thanks,
>
>         Patrice.

- --
Mark Saleski - [e-mail]
Where ignorance is our master, there is no possibility of real peace. --Dalai
Lama



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:58:38 -0700
From: s~Z <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: rahsaan roland kirk

[e-mail] wrote:
>
> I'd agree with all of these, but my favorite single Kirk disc is Prepare
> Thyself To Deal With A Miracle, which is available as one of the four (all
> very good) albums collected on the 32Jazz set Aces Back to Back.
>
> Jon

A hearty amen to this recommendation. My vinyl copy has been reduced to
kibble. Since it was the first RRK I heard, everything since has been at
least a little (sometimes a lot) disappointing. Glad to hear it is
available on CD.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:11:25 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some downtowners go pop

On Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 11:39:51AM -0400, Mark Saleski wrote:

> but here's a related question: is it, uh, 'common' that people who like
> one type of music (say, smooth jazz) don't like other types of music (
> say, heavy metal)? as implied the above quote....there's no way a fan of
> billy joel would be interested in cecil taylor.

Actually, yesterday I listened to both "The Stranger" and "Dark to
Themselves". (I'm listening to Rage Against the Machine now, but listened
earlier in the day to the first Lilith Fair compilation and to
Pauline Oliveros, as well as to some of my own group's MP3s.)

For that matter, while I was already a fan  of Charlie Haden and
Jamaaladeen Tacuma, the player who finally convinced me to pick up
the bass was ... Derek Smalls.

- --
| [e-mail]          http://www.metatronpress.com/~jzitt |
| Latest Solo CD: Gentle Entropy         http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 09:29:43 PDT
From: "robert ludington" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Email Legislation

<<How do you reconcile anarchy and being on a government funded
Internetbackbone?
    Patrice (just curious)>>

     no problem! glad you are curious.... i'm finding there are alot of sort
of 'dualisms' in anarchist thinking... here is my explanation.
     well, as most people know by now, the internet is probablly the easiest
most effecient, and cheapest means of communication.  internet mailing list
aren't just sources for info(like newsletters), but they can offer a
relatively quick 'back & forth' between the members(ie: your quick response
to my original message).  i'm sure you realize all this, and that isn't my
argument....
     my response would be basically, why the hell not? there is nothing
inherently evil about the internet itself, and if the lines are already laid
then why shouldn't i, or anyone use every tool possible at their disposal?
no idea pleases me more than using the tools of capitalism against itself.
true, it may be funded with tax money from NASA or the military but the
people had to pay for this, and should be able to use it as they please.
just because i believe the best way to live would be in a non-statist
society doesn't mean that we shouldn't use similar services that were put
into place by the government(phone lines, public transportation, etc). they
should just be run by the people instead. i just see it as taking back what
we have a right to use freely(ex: without taxation on email). librarys are
funded by local government, but i have no qualms taking out a book to learn
more about something. the internet is in part a vast library.
   i don't know. i tend to think(and although i'm still pretty new to this
line of thinking) that i practice 'practical anarchy'.  what that means to
me is to make use of what's there, regardless of it's initial use(military)
and to use it in a way that benifits people more(information,
communication).  an example; i oppose testing medicine on animals. there are
several reasons why, and i could go into all this, but now there are more
reliable methods that don't involve harming other living creatures. but
still, this doesn't mean that i wouldn't accept established medicine just
because it most likely at one point was tested on an animal. i'd fight for
stopping the experimentation that currently goes on, but as i see it, in
past the damage has been done. it doesn't make that medicine 'invalid', and
would at least give some purpose to the suffering.
     i dunno if anyone on this list has heard about J18, but basically it
was an international demo against capitalism. there hasn't been much in the
news about it, but large numbers of protestors around the world took place
in a large, spontanious, barely organized demonstration. the only
'organization' were posts to mailing lists & a webpage to look up info. the
amount of people at the demo's surprised everone. there is no way i can see
that this isn't an effective tool to use for networking regardless of it's
origins....

i apologize to anyone inconvenienced by an off topic rant....
i guess if you want to discuss things further Patrice we should do it off
list? it takes alot of words for me to formulate what i really mean, since
i'm still rather new to anarchy in general. plus realize that this is just
*my* defense, and anarchy is as varied as each different person...


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:34:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: KISS: Great Jewish Music! (was Some Downtowners go pop)

Great Jewish Music sugestions:

Herbie Mann
Shelly Manne
S. David Cohen (David Blue)
Zal Yanofsky (Lovin' Spoonful)
Graham Goldman (10Cc and wrote for Hollies)
Artie Shaw
Kinky Friedman (or has that been done?)
John Cohen (New Lost City Ramblers)
Lou Gotlieb (The Limelighters)
Sonny Berman
Terry Gibbs
Moe Koffman
Lieber-Stoller
Leslie West-Corky Laing (Mountain)
Willie "The Lion" Smith
Misha Mengelberg (Jewish grandmother)
Paul Bley
Mike Bloomfield
Al Cohn
Raphe Malik
Burton Greene
Percy Faith

(see Patrice, my interest-knowledge in wider than you realize)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:43:35 -0400
From: Joseph Zitt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: some downtowners go pop

On Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 08:50:59AM -0700, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> Did anybody buy CIVIL WARS by Glass and Wilson? Since the composition was
> written almost 20 years ago, I have high expectections for it. Any opinion
> before I take the dive?

Yups, and it may be the best thing either of them has ever done. If I
were the type to keep Best of the Year lists, it would definitely be
on it.

- --
| [e-mail]          http://www.metatronpress.com/~jzitt |
| Latest Solo CD: Gentle Entropy         http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt |
| Comma: Voices of New Music    Silence: the John Cage Discussion List |

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:54:20 -0500
From: "Robert A. Pleshar" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: KISS: Great Jewish Music! (was Some Downtowners go pop)

I know we've gone through a bunch of these things before. Isn't ti the case
that Willie "The Lion" Smith was a cantor, in addition to a piano player of
renown? Does being a cantor mean that he was jewish or is it possible that
it was just a job? I don't really know.

Also, if someone converts to Sunni Muslim (Raphe Malik), and still counts
as great jewish music, then surely a convert to judaism such as Sammy Davis
Jr. would be eligable as well, no?

I totally agree that Shelly Manne and Kinky Friedman need tributes.

Did Moe Koffman ever do anything "great?" I only know his name from some
incredibly hokey flute and electronics easy listening type albums. Was
there more to his career?


Let's add:
Paula Abdul (yuck, yuck)
Bob Dylan (except for that unfortunate born-again christianity phase)
Steve Lacy
Clara Rockmore(although I guess she only played and didn't write anything)

Rob




At 12:34 PM 7/9/99 -0400, Ken Waxman wrote:
>Great Jewish Music sugestions:
>
>Herbie Mann
>Shelly Manne
>S. David Cohen (David Blue)
>Zal Yanofsky (Lovin' Spoonful)
>Graham Goldman (10Cc and wrote for Hollies)
>Artie Shaw
>Kinky Friedman (or has that been done?)
>John Cohen (New Lost City Ramblers)
>Lou Gotlieb (The Limelighters)
>Sonny Berman
>Terry Gibbs
>Moe Koffman
>Lieber-Stoller
>Leslie West-Corky Laing (Mountain)
>Willie "The Lion" Smith
>Misha Mengelberg (Jewish grandmother)
>Paul Bley
>Mike Bloomfield
>Al Cohn
>Raphe Malik
>Burton Greene
>Percy Faith
>
>(see Patrice, my interest-knowledge in wider than you realize)
>
>-
>
Robert Pleshar
Head, Serial Orders
University of Chicago Library
1100 E. 57th Street
Chicago, IL 60637

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:27:10 -0700
From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: rahsaan

[e-mail] (Zorn List Digest) writes
[Brian O, actually]:
>>What are his quitessential works?

>RRP is my favorite among his group works, but my all-time fave Kirk is
>on his
>"Natural Black Inventions: Root Strata", a virtual solo album (there's
>a teeny
>bit of piano and percussion by others) released on Atlantic in 1972,
>but
>currently available as one disc of the 3CD set "Dog Years in the Fourth
>Ring" on
>32Jazz. Some amazing, earthy playing therein.

>Also great are 'The Inflated Tear', 'Volunteered Slavery', 'Bright
>Moments' and
>'Blacknuss'.

Let me chime in for 'volunteered slavery.' Much of this is live, with
great energy and very good sound. I don't know that Rahsaan has a
"quintessential'' work in the sense of Kind of Blue or a Love Supreme
... but I vote for the VS version of Bachrach's "Say a Little Prayer"
as the quintessential version of that song (with all due respect to,
ah, dionne warwick, right?).

Rhino has one of those 2- or 3-CD compilations of Rahsaan out, which I
haven't heard but knowing the job they did with Mingus and Eddie
Harris, this would be a good bet (I haven't gotten it because I already
have most of the cuts on LP -- the only other reason to not buy it
would be if you might collect all his work individually).

"Bright Moments'' is also a favorite. However, I disagree with Brian
about "The Case of the Three-Sided Dream in Audio Color" (so-named
because the 2-LP set had music on just three sides). Modest pickings
here -- save this for after you've collected most of the others.

But going back to "Slavery," let me acknowledge the "first album"
phenomenon -- that is, the first album of a particular artist or genre
you discover, and how huge the impact can be. Like it turns on a light
for you, and everything subsequent is sort of discovering what can be
seen within that light. This was my first Rahsaan album and while I
still think it's as good as any, there's a sentimental favoritism
involved. Other's in that category are Miles Runs the Voodoo Down (a
song in that case which opened up Miles electric period for me),
Mahavishnu's Birds of Fire, Duke's Webster/Blanton band, etc.

Do others on this list share this experience? I think the Penguin guide
selections sometimes reflect this phenomenon in its authors when it
comes to the 5-star selections. I mean, I love Herbie Hancock's
"Headhunters" -- I love it to death -- but I have a hard time calling
it one of the best 30 or so jazz albums of all time. (That said, let me
add that I think that it gets a crown from the Penguin boys is charming
- -- and I like the charm of the guide. After all, music isn't an
athletic event.) ... Oh yeah, Zorn's Big Showdown gets a crown too (at
least in the second to last edition) -- another hint at the "first
album" (or at least first major album" phenomenon at work....

Or is it just that the music is more potent at the discovery stage for
the musician (as well as the listener)?....

Martin

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #704
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