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Zorn List Digest        Wednesday, June 9 1999        Volume 02 : Number 672



In this issue:
-
       Re: more cheap CD site information
       New Yorker interview
       Soup
       Re: more cheap CD site information
       Re: more cheap CD site information
       Soup: Again
       Re: more cheap CD site information
       Re: more cheap CD site information
       suggestions (Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #670)
       Re: New Yorker interview
       Re: Soup: Again
       Parachute
       ESP again?
       Re: Soup: Again
       Re: suggestions (Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #670)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:25:53 -0400
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more cheap CD site information

Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:15:14 +0200  "Stephane Vuilleumier" wrote:
> >
> > I know about Zorn, but who's Ricky Martin?
> > Does he also get "New Yorker" interviews?
>
> I was also puzzled by that name. I never heard it before going to the
> Victoriaville festival, and, on my way back to the States almost
> every magazine had "Ricky Martin" on their first page!
>
> He is a singer who currently has a big hit.

In addition, Ricky Martin is an ex-member of the pop/R&B group Menudo
whose members are kicked out when they reach a certain age (18 or so) and
are replaced by younger talent. This way, the project is a constant flux
of dreamy teen sensations!

It almost seems a parody of the commercial music industry, but Menudo is
for real.

listening to: Parker/Guy/Lytton - Imaginary Values (Maya)

                    -Tom Pratt



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:05:39 -0700
From: Herb Levy <[e-mail]>
Subject: New Yorker interview

I've got to agree with Brian on this.  After reading the interview instead
of just glancing through it at the newsstand, for the most part it's pretty
basic (without providing the rules for Cobra).

I also agree that the article by Eyes Wide Shut screenwriter Frederic
Raphael is very interesting (probably moreso than the Zorn interview).

& I'd forgotten that for subscribers to the New Yorker, time sort of
disappears, so I didn't describe the cover. In case your a VERY long time
subscriber & the previous description didn't help, it's the recent William
Steig drawing.

Bests,

Herb


Herb Levy
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:08:18 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Soup

has anyone here heard any artists on the Soup label?
i heard a lot of hype about the relatively new label's existence,
but i was rather dissappointed by most of what i heard. (i bought a soup disc
sampler) however, there are some fairly innovative musicians ..using more
bizzare textures and sonically rich sounds in electronic music (which is , i
might add, the foundation of the label). i guess electronic music now seems
to bore me more often than not. but, i still think there are interesting
things being done, and i won't give up looking.

ben

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:19:34 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: more cheap CD site information

In a message dated 6/8/99 1:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [e-mail]
writes:

>     I have...took about 8 days. All seemingly
>      legit releases...though the low price
>      doesn't bode well for the artists actually
>      getting their cut.

Are you sure?  I thought artists get their royalties based on the number of
CDs sold (shipped), regardless of how much a retailer sells them for.

- -Jody

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 09:38:06 -0700
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more cheap CD site information

On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:19:34 EDT  [e-mail] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/8/99 1:10:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [e-mail]
> writes:
>
> >     I have...took about 8 days. All seemingly
> >      legit releases...though the low price
> >      doesn't bode well for the artists actually
> >      getting their cut.
>
> Are you sure?  I thought artists get their royalties based on the number of
> CDs sold (shipped), regardless of how much a retailer sells them for.

Hum... interesting logic. And where does the money come from? Are you assuming
that the label sells them to the distributors below price?

At $5 the record, you can be sure that almost no money is made once
manufacturing costs and other are paid... I am, of course, talking about small
labels which press 1000 copies. The big guys could afford to go down,
although their running costs are high (and their stockholders might wonder
about such altruistic trend :-).

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:46:17 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Soup: Again

oops...i left out in my last Soup ramblings, it's a japanese based label and
artists.

ben

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:44:25 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: more cheap CD site information

This joint is a loss leader sales site. The object is to run sales up in
order to turn the company over. This has nothing do with artist royalties as
this company buys from one-stops and the major distribution companies.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:12:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Audino <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: more cheap CD site information

On Wed, 9 Jun 1999, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:

> > Are you sure?  I thought artists get their royalties based on the number of
> > CDs sold (shipped), regardless of how much a retailer sells them for.

Artists are paid for CDs sold, not CDs shipped.  There is a world of
difference between the two terms.  Sold refers to a purchase by the end
user, not the retailer.  Artists are not paid for promo copies or
cut-outs.

> Hum... interesting logic. And where does the money come from? Are you assuming
> that the label sells them to the distributors below price?

CDs are usually sold to retailers for around $11-13, maybe a little more
as CD prices here in America continue to skyrocket.  I'm guesing that the
"$4.95, limit 5" site is selling the discs as a massive loss leading
promotion.  In other words, they are losing money on eacha nd every disc
that they sell in the hope that you'll develop some sort of loyalty to the
site and return to purchase full-price items in the future.  I would
imagine that the artists are still getting paid, in fact I'm almost
certain of it.

Labels (and publishers, etc.) tend to really frown upon loss leaders.
They believe that the promotions and price wars hurt retailers in the long
run by a) forcing smaller companies out of business and b) devaluing the
products being sold.  After all, if you can buy a book for 50% off retail
or a CD for $5, why would you want to pay full price for it?  And then,
once the promotion ends, you'll simply go looking for the best deal
elsewhere.

Out 2 Lunch With Lunchmeat,

Paul
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 17:28:28 GMT
From: Scott Handley <[e-mail]>
Subject: suggestions (Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #670)

I've found the Zornlist to be a really friendly place, with great "advice",
almost like a suggestive map of strange new territory, even if that
"strange" territory is some subverted familiar, like, say, Caetano Veloso.
I haven't seen anything more than a joke about off-topic-ness in months, I
think.  This is a good thing.  We trace eraseable boundaries that actually
serve as nothing more than a description of what's possible.  Now----ahhh!
Now that I'm done patting my own back I can type faster.

I don't know if it would be a lost cause to make "suggested records" a FAQ,
w/ taste subjective and all, but it seems we get a fair number of newbies
(not a good word, by the way, for a list where punks can get into Mauricio
Kagel and Dumitrescu and jazzbos or avant-guardians can learn about Napalm
Death or Meshuggah) whose primary exposure is Naked City, Sonic Youth, punk,
etc.  While these folks bring an amazing quality to the list, they might be
well-served by a semi-standard FAQ listing some must-have records by some of
the "luminaries", or labels at least.  For instance, I would direct a
bebop/freebop fan to Masada.  And I would direct all kinds of people to the
LJCO, or Evan Parker, or maybe Joe McPhee, who is bad-ass.  It would serve
as a less "bewildering" introduction, and perhaps brief descriptions from
list members could be ore helpful than promo gush.

Anyway, I'd be interested to know what ya'll think.

Now, to KruciFly's question:

1.) Have you checked out Masada?  Bad-ass!

2.) Amazing Canadian composer/saxist Jean Derome can be seen as the
Quebecois answer to Zorn, but he isn't nearly as recognized.  I mean
the _Penguin Guide_ snubs him!  Crazy!  I like his band Dangereux
Zhoms, which might be akin to Naked City, in some superficial and
essential ways (the pomo layers and jumpcuts, but slower).  They        have
a 3-CD box which is fine, though all are available separately.
Derome also has an album of "ballet" music, rather quiet, called LA
BETE, which I adore.  He is brilliant.  A whole circle of brilliant
improvisor-composers surrounds him, based in Montreal (??).  A     frequent
collaborator is the brilliant, sick guitarist Rene Lussier, who         has
a great duo record w/ turntable sicko Martin Tetreault.  All these records
are on the nifty Ambiances Magnetiques label (www.cam.org/~dame_cd).

3.) If you like Sonic Youth, perhaps you would enjoy Thurston Moore's free
improv records w/ and w/out William Hooker?  Or his brand new trio record w/
amazing saxophonist Evan Parker, who turns the tenor and soprano saxophones
into columns of fluid sentient vines?  One of my favorite Evan Parker
records, and a great way in, would be 50th BIRTHDAY CONCERT, a 2CD
free-improv "masterpiece".  Or the trio record BREATHS AND HEARTBEATS, which
is absolutely fantastic, IMHO.

4.) Gyorgy Ligeti, Kryzstof Penderecki, Iancu Dumitrescu, and Bela Bartok
have all written "concert" music for large and small ensembles that really
cooks.  The two EMI "Matrix"-series releases for Penderecki are huge insane
oceans of sound and timbre, ranging from the inauduble to the deafening.  A
lot of it scares me.  A bargain trip to hell.

5.) Peter Brotzmann also seems to know something about hell.  A
tenor-playing harbinger of doom and R&B, known for his all-out 1968 assault,
MACHINE GUN.  I like his Die Like a Dog Quartet, which really slips into a
strange kind of "groove".  Definitely free improv.  I was so blown away by
his duo w/ drummer Andrew Cyrille in Atlanta, I was screaming.  (Charles
Mingus' reaction to seeing the Ellington band for the first time, BTW...)

6.) I love Tim Berne, saxist/composer.  His FULTON STREET MAUL is a great
record, but my fave are the first three Bloocount records on JMT, which are
pretty much out of print (though you should check out his Screwgun label' s
website for cool stuff).  Huge, long compositions with noise, space, silence
and groove.

Those are just some things I like.

- -----s


>From: [e-mail]
>hello. i'm new on the list.
>i am all but completely lost on the musical subjects you continually
>discuss.


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:19:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: New Yorker interview

Let's not get carried away. I made a point of reading the entire article
today at my favorite no-charge library (standing up at a magazine store)
and found it pretty much what you'd expect from a slick.

What bothered me was a couple of things. Knowing very little about jazz
(even though the names Ornette Coleman and James "Blood" Ulmer are
dropped without explanation), the writer seems to buy into the myth that
jazz was moribund in the mid-1970s, buried under the onslaught of rock
music. He then cites the sort of "downtown" types who Zorn was playing
along side in lofts as David Murray, Arthur Blythe, Sam Rivers and Julius
Hemphill. I'm sure any one of them who had careers going back year --20
or so in Rivers' case -- would be surprised to be appended to a loft
movement with Zorn as its most prominent practitioner.

More insidious was the idea that Zorn has somehow "made it" because he's
able to write melodic classical music that's far removed from his raucous
"rock" and "jazz" playing. If you notice nearly everyone, if not everyone
quoted in the article comes from the classical aide of the fence. As if them
praising Zorn gives him the stamp of approval.

It's this reason that Hollywood movies about swing musicians used to end
with them in ties and tails conducting large classical orchestras. And
it's why all the "new" outlets, i.e. The New York Times, The New Yorker, New
York etc. only give their imprimatur to musicians such as Zorn (remember it
was the
NYT's John Rockwell who first praised him) and Wynton Marsalis. They can
play so-called classical music, their scores are performed by classical
musicians and ensembles, therefore they are high art. And high art is good.

This isn't an attack on Zorn, BTW, even though I think he does too much,
too often, but an examination of musical establishment power politics.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

P.S. It would be nice if instead of an occasional sop in terms of an
article, the New Yorker hired a jazz/new music critic who wrote well and
knew as much about present day "out" sounds as Whitney Balliet knew about
jazz pre-1960.

P.P.S. Now that he's been praised by JZ, will the more rabid Zornies be
rushing out to pick up some CDs by alto saxophonist Bud Shank? Or should
we look for Shank to be invited to bring a group into Tonic?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:51:22 -0700
From: "sfwd" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Soup: Again

: oops...i left out in my last Soup ramblings, it's a japanese based label
and
: artists.

not all artists involved are soup... dj vadim (aka andre gurov on the jazz
fudge label)
is involved. personally i found both the soup sampler and broken piano
repaired
to be a bit of a letdown... although, i'm more into vadim and his work with
ninja tune
and such. the material was a bit too laid back for my tastes (especially as
my favorite
records recently seem to be by ground zero :)


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:28:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Parachute

>>I was digging through the archives at the radio station where I work,
>>and
>>I found a copy of Chadbourne's _There'll Be No Tears Tonight_, a great
>>record featuring Zorn and Tom Cora, among others, on several tracks.
>>Someone should really reissue this stuff.  Stranger things in the Zorn
>>discography have been re-released.

>I have a cd reissue of _There'll Be No Tears Tonight_ on Fundamental
>Records, which has released many Chadbourne recordings. I picked up this
>copy in '94, so I'm not certain it's currently in print...

It's not.  The next chance of this may be if he (Chadbourne) releases it
through his association with Ponk on a CD-R.  Actually, I really have no
idea about this being true but he has mentioned re-releasing some of the
Camper Van Chadbourne CDs this way.  TBNTT, if you ask me, is much better
than those albums, so hopefully he or someone else will put it back out.
That and _LSD C & W_

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 23:12:26 -0400
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: ESP again?

Does anybody know what happened to the rumored US reissue of ESP title
through Smithsonian?  Has that fallen through or been delayed or just a
fever dream?

LT
- ----------------------------------------------
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

Singapore Film Fest at World Cinema Review
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4/wcr.htm


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 00:15:43 EDT
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Soup: Again

In a message dated 6/9/99 8:58:19 PM, [e-mail] writes:

<< not all artists involved are soup... dj vadim (aka andre gurov on the jazz
fudge label)
is involved. personally i found both the soup sampler and broken piano
repaired
to be a bit of a letdown... although, i'm more into vadim and his work with
ninja tune
and such. the material was a bit too laid back for my tastes >>

agreed to all of the above. I've never heard anything especially satisfying
from Soup-Disk, although since I believe the 70 minute CD sampler is priced
at about 2 bucks, you could cheaply check for yourself. on the other hand,
the Andre Gurov-Revelations Of Wrath full length on the aforementioned Jazz
Fudge is a really well-crafted record, superior to any of Vadim's work on
Ninja Tune. something worth checking out in a similar vein is the Viennese
duo Kruder and Dorfmeister, especially their DJ Kicks mix CD.

go Knicks!!!!!

Jon

NP: Jeff Van Gundy

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 00:43:37 -0400
From: Mike Chamberlain <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: suggestions (Re: Zorn List Digest V2 #670)

Scott Handley wrote:
>

> I don't know if it would be a lost cause to make "suggested records" a FAQ,
> w/ taste subjective and all, but it seems we get a fair number of newbies
> (not a good word, by the way, for a list where punks can get into Mauricio
> Kagel and Dumitrescu and jazzbos or avant-guardians can learn about Napalm
> Death or Meshuggah) whose primary exposure is Naked City, Sonic Youth, punk,
> etc.  While these folks bring an amazing quality to the list, they might be
> well-served by a semi-standard FAQ listing some must-have records by some of
> the "luminaries", or labels at least.  For instance, I would direct a
> bebop/freebop fan to Masada.  And I would direct all kinds of people to the
> LJCO, or Evan Parker, or maybe Joe McPhee, who is bad-ass.  It would serve
> as a less "bewildering" introduction, and perhaps brief descriptions from
> list members could be ore helpful than promo gush.
>
> Anyway, I'd be interested to know what ya'll think.

I think that this is a good idea, although I also love posts like this
one, if not for new information, then for the insight I get into the
tastes of those on the list.

> Now, to KruciFly's question:
>
> 1.) Have you checked out Masada?  Bad-ass!

If you like Masada, you will probably also get off on "Bar Kokhba" and
"The Circle Maker," with the Masada String Trio and the Masada Chamber
Ensemble.  Compositions by Zorn and musical contributions from Marc
Ribot, Greg Cohen, Mark Feldman, Erik Friedlander, Anthony Coleman, Dave
Douglas, Kenny Wollesen and others.  Beautiful folk melodies in chamber
settings.

> 2.) Amazing Canadian composer/saxist Jean Derome can be seen as the
> Quebecois answer to Zorn, but he isn't nearly as recognized.  I mean
> the _Penguin Guide_ snubs him!  Crazy!  I like his band Dangereux
> Zhoms, which might be akin to Naked City, in some superficial and
> essential ways (the pomo layers and jumpcuts, but slower).  They        have
> a 3-CD box which is fine, though all are available separately.
> Derome also has an album of "ballet" music, rather quiet, called LA
> BETE, which I adore.  He is brilliant.  A whole circle of brilliant
> improvisor-composers surrounds him, based in Montreal (??).

Yes.

5.) Peter Brotzmann also seems to know something about hell.  A
> tenor-playing harbinger of doom and R&B, known for his all-out 1968 assault,
> MACHINE GUN.  I like his Die Like a Dog Quartet, which really slips into a
> strange kind of "groove".  Definitely free improv.  I was so blown away by
> his duo w/ drummer Andrew Cyrille in Atlanta, I was screaming.  (Charles
> Mingus' reaction to seeing the Ellington band for the first time, BTW...)

And I'm still shaking from the Brotzmann Tentet performance at
Victoriaville.  The album (on Okka Disk) is a must have if you like
energetic arranged free improv.

- --Mike

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #672
*******************************


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