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Zorn List Digest       Wednesday, March 31 1999       Volume 02 : Number 637



In this issue:
-
       Re: Negativland
       cobra presence
       Re: Negativland
       Re: Pukwana/Feza
       Re: Greatest improviser poll
       Re: Parody / Satire
       Re: Parody / Satire
       Greatest improviser poll
       naked city black box art
       Re: Pukwana/Feza
       Re: naked city black box art
       Lol Coxhill
       Greatest improviser poll
       Re: Parody / Satire
       Re: Parody / Satire
       Re: naked city black box art

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:24:08 -0500
From: Matthew Shepherd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Negativland

This isn't the ultra-legal definition, but parody is DIRECT mockery while
satire is using one form to mock another.

I belive in the case cited (Dr. Seuss), somebody used the names and
likenesses of the Cat in the Hat to go after...uh...Bill Clinton or O.J.
Simpson or to capitalize on some other 'trial of the century' fooferaw.

'Parody' would be Weird Al Yankovic recording 'Smells Like Nirvana,' using
the music and lyrics of Nirvana to mock Nirvana.

Were I to borrow Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" to write a hit song
comedically pointing out the shortcomings of Al Gore and having nothing
whatsoever to do with Nirvana in any way other than heisting the tune, that
would be satire.

I think.

Al Tabor wrote:

> What is the difference between parody and satire?
>
> > Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 15:58:16 -0800
> > From: cd <[e-mail]>
> > Subject: Re: Negativland
>
> > In the US, satire is NOT an exemption to copyright infringement (see
> > Dr. Seuss Enterprises, L.P. v. Penguin Books USA, Inc., 109 F.3d 1394
> > (9th Cir. 1997).  Parody, however, may constitute fair use
> > (See Campbell
> > v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc., 510 U.S. 569 (1994)).  A subtle
> > distinction,
> > but very important (as many unsuspecting defendants have discovered).
> >
> > - -cd
> >
> > - -
> >
>
> -

- --
"I had a dog named Shep. He was a good dog, too."
- - E. Presley

Matt Shepherd
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:46:30 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: cobra presence

- ----i've submitted this twice now, and it hasn't appeared in the digest----

those of you around the country:

are there any other groups besides the one here in cincinnati doing cobra
regularly? i know cobra is rather played-out in nyc (and probably northern
ca), but is this city as surprisingly-lucky as it seems???

~joseph

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:57:07 -0800
From: cd <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Negativland

I've never heard it put better! (I'm glad I procrastinated in responding
to Al's inquiry re: my post...).

Matthew Shepherd wrote:
>
> This isn't the ultra-legal definition, but parody is DIRECT mockery while
> satire is using one form to mock another.
>
> I belive in the case cited (Dr. Seuss), somebody used the names and
> likenesses of the Cat in the Hat to go after...uh...Bill Clinton or O.J.
> Simpson or to capitalize on some other 'trial of the century' fooferaw.
>
> 'Parody' would be Weird Al Yankovic recording 'Smells Like Nirvana,' using
> the music and lyrics of Nirvana to mock Nirvana.
>
> Were I to borrow Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" to write a hit song
> comedically pointing out the shortcomings of Al Gore and having nothing
> whatsoever to do with Nirvana in any way other than heisting the tune, that
> would be satire.
>
> I think.
>
> Al Tabor wrote:
>
> > What is the difference between parody and satire?
> >

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:32:14 -0600
From: Eric Saidel <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pukwana/Feza

Brian:

> It figures...thanks for the great info Patrice and Sean. I was doing some
> net-skimming and found a few references for Okay Temiz, a name I've heard of
> (and have probably heard along the way--I notice he played a bunch with various
> Scandanavian musicians) but don't really know what his work is like. Anyone who
> can offer a brief description?

He also plays with Don Cherry on his "Live in Istanbul" record.

A brief, and mostly uninformative description, based on one time I saw
him a couple of years ago.  His name is pronounced o-kai - rhymes with
hi - tuh-meez.  He's a percussionist (you probably knew that), and
favors lots of percussion - the group I saw him lead had something like
3 percussionists.  A lot of poly-rhythm.  I don't know Turkish music as
distinct from other folk musics of that region of the world, but a lot
the music had the feel of jazz built on top of Turkish folk music.  This
could almost be a description of several other groups popular on this
list - Jazz built on top of eastern european folk music - but this was
different, the jazz was a bit tamer, a bit more closely related to bop,
less emphasis on virtuosity of the soloist.  The emphasis with Temiz, as
I remember, was on the rhythm.  He got us bouncing around fairly
easily.  It was also fairly light-hearted fare, as I remember.

As I said, brief and uninformative.

- - eric


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:37:40 +0100
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Greatest improviser poll

> The Zornlist leaves no nook, cranny or rock unexplored in its search
> for fresh sounds. But when it comes down to the nitty gritty, who does
> the list think really rules as an IMPROVISER in the 20th century?

So, just who *is* the improvisor with the best name-recognition
among white-collar Euro-American John Zorn fans (surely this list's
most common demographic, no?)? Answer: somebody or other
with good distribution and marketing. Or a safe "classic" like
Coltrane. Surprise surprise.

I'm constatly irritated by the fact that there are so many really
exciting players who are simply unknown beyond a local level,
while thousands of lines are taken up (not just here, of course)
banging on about whoever -- David S Ware still at the moment --
just because they're on a major and are getting some promo.

I promise to retract everything and shut up for, oh, at least 90
minutes if somebody witheringly obscure wins it.

BTW, Edward, Roswell Rudd's _Flexible Flyer_ is a nice, jazzy
session. Mostly his own quirky, post-boppish compositions if my
memory serves, but a standard or two wouldn't be out of place if it's
there.Certainly no full-on bellowing.

Rich

- --------------------------------------------
Visit (musings), a resource for free jazz,
experimental and otherwise non-standard musics:
http://come.to/musings.com
...now with its own mailing list, musings-l

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:37:29 -0500
From: Seth Gordon <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Parody / Satire

Parody and satire are two sompletely different forms- There are legal
references to parody but satire is entirely unconnected- A parody could be
a satire, and vice versa.

Basically, a satire (according to the OED) is a "work in which vices,
follies, etc., are held up to ridicule and contempt"- anything from
"Gulliver's Travels" to "American Psycho" to "Smells Like Nirvana"- which
is a rare exception in the Yankovic oeuvre, as most of his works are not
satires but straight parodies- "a farcical imitation of a work or style"
(OED again), not necessarily a comment on anything (I don't think "Eat It"
bears any direct comment on Michael Jackson's lifestyle. Although I'd like
to think that in some twisted way it does...)
A parody (whether satire or not) is protected as free speech as part of the
"fair use" statute- specifically, that it is ok to use material for which
someone else is the copyright holder in "the absence of intent to
plaigarize as evidenced by proper acknowledgement" and when the copywritten
material is used by a "reviewer, scholar, compiler or parodist". This isn't
all the statute covers- there's also regulations about the nature of the
work being quoted, amount and substantiality of the portion used, etc. But
that's where the reference to "parody" falls in our justice system- thank
you Larry Flynt!

(Something just dawned on me- something has a "copyright", but it is
"copywritten". Right / Write? How did that come about?)

The example of the Dr. Suess character being used was not viewed as fair
use as it was not a parody of the copywritten work, but rather used the
character for it's own means (which were entirely unconnected)- kind of
like all those underground porno cartoons starring Mickey + Minnie
Mouse.(Which brings up an interesting tangent- Disney's copyright on Mickey
Mouse is going to expire at some point in the next couple of years and MM
will become a public domain image. The big D's fighting in court to get
some sort of "extension". Don't know how it will turn out...)

Anyway, "satire" has nothing to do with legality, copyright or any of that-
just imagine if Bret Easton Ellis had to pay royalties to all upper-class
Manhattanites, or if Stanley Kubrick had to give a portion of the proceeds
from "Dr. Strangelove" to the Pentagon...


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:39:47 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Parody / Satire

> .(Which brings up an interesting tangent- Disney's copyright on Mickey
> Mouse is going to expire at some point in the next couple of years and MM
> will become a public domain image. The big D's fighting in court to get
> some sort of "extension". Don't know how it will turn out...)
>
    What happened was that Eisner and his pals went up to capitol
hill and "convinced" our elected representatives to rewrite the law.
They got another 25? years if I remember correctly. Gee, you think
they'll ask for another rewrite 25 years from now?
    All hail the corporate states of America...... :-(

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:58:05 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: Greatest improviser poll

Zornlist Greatest Improvisor of the 20th Century Poll

Final reminder to cast your ballot.
Deadline to vote is Sat. April 3, 11:59 p.m. PST

Zornlist subscribers can be obsessive in their search of uncharted
aural territory. But at the end of the day, who does the list think
really rules as an IMPROVISER in the 20th century? Response has been
picking up (some comments regarding polling so far appear at the bottom
of this post), but I'm hoping for one last spurt of balloting to
broaden the sample and make this more interesting (especially some of
you regular Zornlist posters who haven't checked in yet). Here's how to
vote:

List your top five choices, numbered 1-5. No.1=5 points; No. 2=4
points;etc. Denote ties thusly:
1. Buddy Bolden
2. Blind Willie Johnson
2. Eye
4. Ravi Shankar
5. Rabih Abou-Khalil
(Somebody asked and in case anybody else wonders: No, this is not an
actual ballot of mine or anybody elses!)

Multiple listings of the same player on the same post will be
disregarded. Ballots of less than five musicians are welcomed. Vote
once. Void where prohibited.

I don't know about you, but I sometimes make a distinction between
"greatest" and "favorite."

Please include the word "poll" in the subject line of your ballot. Post
to:

[e-mail]

Please do NOT post to the zornlist.

I will post the results on the zornlist early next week.

(With the exception of one Russian, only Western players have been
named on ballots so far. Among names that have not yet turned up are
Jimi Hendrix, Steve Lacy, Henry Threadgill, Art Tatum -- in fact, no
swing-era jazz players except Ella Fitzgerald. Also, no Betty Carter,
Dizzy Gillespie, Clifford Brown or Wayne Shorter. Bird and Monk are the
only bop representatives so far, unless you count Miles or Mingus.
Among unusual nominees, Chuck Berry (one 5th place vote). ... The two
front runners have the initial "C" -- and Charlie Parker is NOT one of
them.)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:30:29 -0800
From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: naked city black box art

I recently lent out the black box to a workmate of mine. Someone else was
looking at the inside cover art and became quite offended and wanted to
know what the meaning behind the artwork. She was particularly struck by
the torture garden photos of the woman getting delimbed and whatnot. Does
anyone know the meaning behind the artwork on this album?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:19:45 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Pukwana/Feza

With all this talk on African/improv stuff, I was wondering if anyone's heard and
has comments on the Africa Djole discs on FMP. I've always been curious about
these...

Also, on what label is 'In The Townships'?

Thanks!

                    -Tom Pratt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:41:14 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city black box art

On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:30:29 -0800  Jason Tors wrote:
>
> I recently lent out the black box to a workmate of mine. Someone else was
> looking at the inside cover art and became quite offended and wanted to
> know what the meaning behind the artwork. She was particularly struck by
> the torture garden photos of the woman getting delimbed and whatnot. Does
> anyone know the meaning behind the artwork on this album?

Torture Garden is the name of a late 19th century novel by French writer Octave
Mirbeau. The book is about a man who falls in love for a women who is obsessed
about torture. The story happens in a Chinese town where, every month, people
are allowed to visit the Torture Garden, a place where people convicted of a
crime are... tortured. The man follows her lover (who never miss the "open
house" monthly...) to the garden and the book is about what he sees in it.

The pictures are perfect illustrations of the title. Which means that the
question to ask is really:

    Why Torture Garden?

    Patrice.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:10:48 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Lol Coxhill

Another question for you all...

I've never heard anything by Lol Coxhill and am looking to fix that.
What's his best stuff?

Thanks again!

                -Tom Pratt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:58:05 -0800
From: [e-mail] (Martin Wisckol)
Subject: Greatest improviser poll

Zornlist Greatest Improvisor of the 20th Century Poll

Final reminder to cast your ballot.
Deadline to vote is Sat. April 3, 11:59 p.m. PST

Zornlist subscribers can be obsessive in their search of uncharted
aural territory. But at the end of the day, who does the list think
really rules as an IMPROVISER in the 20th century? Response has been
picking up (some comments regarding polling so far appear at the bottom
of this post), but I'm hoping for one last spurt of balloting to
broaden the sample and make this more interesting (especially some of
you regular Zornlist posters who haven't checked in yet). Here's how to
vote:

List your top five choices, numbered 1-5. No.1=5 points; No. 2=4
points;etc. Denote ties thusly:
1. Buddy Bolden
2. Blind Willie Johnson
2. Eye
4. Ravi Shankar
5. Rabih Abou-Khalil
(Somebody asked and in case anybody else wonders: No, this is not an
actual ballot of mine or anybody elses!)

Multiple listings of the same player on the same post will be
disregarded. Ballots of less than five musicians are welcomed. Vote
once. Void where prohibited.

I don't know about you, but I sometimes make a distinction between
"greatest" and "favorite."

Please include the word "poll" in the subject line of your ballot. Post
to:

[e-mail]

Please do NOT post to the zornlist.

I will post the results on the zornlist early next week.

(With the exception of one Russian, only Western players have been
named on ballots so far. Among names that have not yet turned up are
Jimi Hendrix, Steve Lacy, Henry Threadgill, Art Tatum -- in fact, no
swing-era jazz players except Ella Fitzgerald. Also, no Betty Carter,
Dizzy Gillespie, Clifford Brown or Wayne Shorter. Bird and Monk are the
only bop representatives so far, unless you count Miles or Mingus.
Among unusual nominees, Chuck Berry (one 5th place vote). ... The two
front runners have the initial "C" -- and Charlie Parker is NOT one of
them.)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:11:06 -0500
From: Lang Thompson <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Parody / Satire

>Mouse.(Which brings up an interesting tangent- Disney's copyright on Mickey
>Mouse is going to expire at some point in the next couple of years and MM
>will become a public domain image. The big D's fighting in court to get
>some sort of "extension". Don't know how it will turn out...)


Characters can't be copyrighted only trademarked or servicemarked.  So
while the films themselves may become public domain, Mickey Mouse will
still be a protected character.  In other words, anybody will be able to
show "Steamboat Willie" but only Disney or its assignees can use Mickey
Mouse in any new work.
- ----------------------------------------------
Lang Thompson
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4

World Cinema Review
http://www.tcf.ua.edu/wlt4/wcr.htm

"The heavy bullets sounded like howitzers in
the dry, airless late-afternoon air."
from Michael Avallone's The Patridge Family

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:06:05 -0500
From: "wetboy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Parody / Satire

- -----Original Message-----
From: Seth Gordon <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: Parody / Satire


[shortened 4 convenience]
>
>(Something just dawned on me- something has a "copyright", but it is
>"copywritten". Right / Write? How did that come about?)
actually, something that has a copyright is copyrighted, not copywritten
(i'm pretty sure)




- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:13:53 -0500
From: "Caleb T. Deupree" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: naked city black box art

At 05:30 PM 3/31/99 -0800, Jason Tors wrote:
>I recently lent out the black box to a workmate of mine. Someone else was
>looking at the inside cover art and became quite offended and wanted to
>know what the meaning behind the artwork. She was particularly struck by
>the torture garden photos of the woman getting delimbed and whatnot. Does
>anyone know the meaning behind the artwork on this album?

Although I don't have the black box, the 'woman getting delimbed and
whatnot' sounds like the original cover for Leng T'che, which I think is
one of the disks in BB.

(Sidebar to Mike R.:  Can we put an answer to this question in the FAQ?  It
is very frequently asked.)

Around 1905, a criminal in China (male, I think), convicted of murdering a
prince, had his sentence commuted to the Hundred Pieces, where he was given
a large dose of opium (not for a painkiller, but to make him live longer),
then slowly dismembered while still alive.  The execution was photographed
by a couple of western photographers, and the pictures were an inspiration
for many avant garde artists in various disciplines.  The French
ex-surrealist Georges Bataille was one such inspired person.  Supposedly he
had all of the pictures in his collection, and found inspiration not so
much in the actual execution, but in the look of ecstasy on the face of the
victim, which helped him in his ideas about death and the supreme moment,
etc.  I gather that the pictures are reproduced in some of Bataille's
books, and I've also seen them in periodicals like Re:Search.


- --
Caleb Deupree
[e-mail]

Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
- -- Pablo Picasso

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #637
*******************************


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