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1999-01-14
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From: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (Zorn List Digest)
To: zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Zorn List Digest V2 #575
Reply-To: zorn-list
Sender: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Errors-To: owner-zorn-list-digest@lists.xmission.com
Precedence: bulk
Zorn List Digest Friday, January 15 1999 Volume 02 : Number 575
In this issue:
-
Re: New Jazz/New Improv
Re: New Jazz/New Improv
Re: New Jazz/New Improv
Who is Dan Carter??
Re: Who is Dan Carter??
Downtown Lullaby
Marion Brown
Re: Experimental Vocalists
Re: Who is Dan Carter??
Re: Who is Dan Carter??
Re: Who is Dan Carter??
re: experimental vocalists/sound environments
Re: Experimental Vocalists
Re: Experimental Vocalists
Marion Brown
Brown/vocalists/recent stuff
Big Jazz CD Sale!!
Re: Marion Brown
R: New Jazz/New Improv
R: New Jazz/New Improv
Last Call for Zornie nominations
sound environments
Re: Re: Experimental Vocalists
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:56:49 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: New Jazz/New Improv
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:20:38 -0500 (EST) Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> Maybe we're splitting hairs here --but why else would be in a group
> discussion like this, if we didn't like to do that -- but I can't see
> your insistance on trying to distance Parker and Brotzmann from the
> so-called "jazz tradition".
I don't think that I have anything against that, expect that I do not
see the jazz link as being stronger than the contemporary classical one
(besides the extensive usage of saxophones, the lack of subsidies, the
poor working conditions, mediocre concert frequentation ;-).
Maybe the reason why I even argue on this topic is my feeling (confirmed by
few interviews), that a lot of the free improv initially was more influenced
by classical contemporary music than by jazz.
Which means that when you want to say: non idiomatic free-improv is one more
branch on the jazz tree, I say fine, but what about saying the same thing
about contemporary classical music?
Talking about France, the main players in this field (free-improv) were
almost all trained classical players (Portal, Lubat, Vitet (?)). They
jumped both feet into free-jazz, but they also produced music similar to
non-idiomatic improv (fabulous CHATEAUVALON by Portal with Vitet, Favre,
Guerin, Tamia, etc). Is it a coincidence that Portal, Jean-Francois
Jenny-Clark, etc were all playing with Stockhausen, Boulez, Globokar?
Citing Braxton is interesting, because who else can represent better the
introduction of classical contempory techniques in jazz? I remember that
Braxton was rejected from IRCAM because he was perceived as being a jazz
musician, when in fact what he was doing had a lot to do with classical
contempory, and little (I believe) to jazz. But he is black, plays
sax, and does not refuse playing standards, hence, I guess, it is
natural to tag him as "jazz".
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:05:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <bburton@CapAccess.org>
Subject: Re: New Jazz/New Improv
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
> Citing Braxton is interesting, because who else can represent better the
> introduction of classical contempory techniques in jazz?
maybe cecil taylor?
b
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:17:13 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: New Jazz/New Improv
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:05:23 -0500 (EST) Brent Burton wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Patrice L. Roussel wrote:
>
> > Citing Braxton is interesting, because who else can represent better the
> > introduction of classical contempory techniques in jazz?
>
> maybe cecil taylor?
Not sure of that. I do not see in Taylor an emphasis on structures and
compositions like Braxton (despite one of his records being called UNIT
STRUCTURES). Taylor definitely brings classical contempory elements to
jazz, but, to my humble opinion, not to the extent of Braxton.
Just as a check: can you imagine a contemporary orchestra playing a Taylor
piece? But you can see that happening with Braxton or Leo Smith (although
it is very rare, unfortunately). It is maybe the main injustice that
Braxton's music is so rarely played by other people (which makes the Debris/
Splatter Trio project even more precious).
Taylor without Taylor playing is, for me, impossible to imagine (but the
same can be said of Bailey).
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:36:00 -0800
From: Jason Tors <jtors@organic.com>
Subject: Who is Dan Carter??
Does anybody know of a Dan Carter, tenor / trumpet / flute, plays around in
NYC??
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:40:50 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who is Dan Carter??
In a message dated 1/14/99 2:38:18 PM, jtors@organic.com writes:
<< Does anybody know of a Dan Carter, tenor / trumpet / flute, plays around in
NYC?? >>
Daniel Carter is a member of both Other Dimensions In Music and Test, playing
all of the above instruments.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:04:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Vlad-Drac@webtv.net (Theo Klaase)
Subject: Downtown Lullaby
What is the album Downtown Lullaby all about musically. I know the
musicians that play on it but I want a comprehensive review. Anyone?
}Theodorus--
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:51:09 EST
From: Tenmk6@aol.com
Subject: Marion Brown
I believe the fine altoist is also on Coltrane's "Ascension" ( Impulse/'67)
I personally enjoyed his early collaborations with Gunter Hampell and Jeannie
Lee ( she's a somewhat experimental vocalist worth checking out, especially
the work with Ruswell Rudd ( Trombone)
- -----
" One of the things that people don't realize about dad's kind of music is,
when you replace a C-sharp with a gunshot, it has to be a C-sharp gunshot or
it sounds awful"
- - Spike Jones Jr-
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:14:01 -0500
From: lefauxhulot@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Experimental Vocalists
mattew, thanx for your in-depth writing!
> There are many 'classical' vocalists who do a
> lot of experimental stuff, namely those who pioneered it: Cathy Berberian and
> Joan La Barbara are two that come immediately to mind.
i'm not quite knowledgeable re: music history, but yes! 'joan la
barbara' is truly an essential!
as for male experimental voice performers, the time i was writing my
'not in-depth' mail, i couldn't figure any at all... but now, one
performer who you didn't mention:
what about 'david moss'??? he lead 'dense band' which has some releases.
p.t.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:20:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Re: Who is Dan Carter??
Yup, he's in two interesting groups, Other Dimensions in music with
William Parker (b); Rashid Bakr (d) and Roy Campbell (tmpt) and Test with
Sabir Maten (reeds) and [I forget] bass and drums. I think he has also
worked with Eve Packer (poetess). All of these peopole are well worth
investigating, epecially ODM's most recent CD on AumFidelity - "Now!" Why
do you ask?
Ken waxman
cj649@torfree.net
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999, Jason Tors wrote:
> Does anybody know of a Dan Carter, tenor / trumpet / flute, plays around in
> NYC??
>
> -
>
>
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:56:45 EST
From: JonAbbey2@aol.com
Subject: Re: Who is Dan Carter??
In a message dated 1/14/99 5:21:32 PM, cj649@freenet.toronto.on.ca writes:
<< Test with
Sabir Maten (reeds) and [I forget] bass and drums. >>
Matt Heyner of the No Neck Blues Band on bass and Tom Bruno on drums. I saw
these guys last Saturday at the Knitting Factory for the first time. it was
pretty much what you'd expect, with Mateen and Carter blowing their heads off
on three or four reeds each, and Heyner and Bruno going full steam behind
them.
what was most noteworthy about the gig, I thought, was that afterwards the guy
who runs Eremite got on stage and yelled something along the lines of "Thank
you all for supporting real music from the heart! ". then he said, "real
music, not with any electronics or anything like that." which made me laugh.
whatever.
Jon
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:37:04 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Who is Dan Carter??
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:56:45 EST JonAbbey2@aol.com wrote:
>
> what was most noteworthy about the gig, I thought, was that afterwards the guy
> who runs Eremite got on stage and yelled something along the lines of "Thank
> you all for supporting real music from the heart! ". then he said, "real
> music, not with any electronics or anything like that." which made me laugh.
> whatever.
Hum... I assume the next Martin Tetreault won't be on Eremite.
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:45:27 -0500 (EST)
From: ctonelli@trentu.ca
Subject: re: experimental vocalists/sound environments
Thanks for the suggestions, they'll help me greatly. Since I wasn't
exactly clear about the sound environment part... what I meant was the
harmonic tuning of various objects in an environment that has some other
purpose where sound is normally ignored. Like if the sound emitted from
various machines on an assembly line were tuned to each other, or someone
played with a pitches emitted by the fan, the toilet and the water taps in
their bathroom.
Chris
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:04:50 -0500
From: picnic thisway <lefauxhulot@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Experimental Vocalists
and, ooops!
has anybody mentioned 'makigami koichi'?! if not, he's a very
interesting voice performer & he'd be the only person who released
solo-voice cd from tzadik. his now-recurred band 'hikashu' would be one
of the most obscure pop band ever happened. (so, the band's input is
more easily accessible by any person, compared with the solo stuff. but
if you're looking into 'the experimental vocalist'. it's a must.)
++++
also, there's a gig which features the 'shelly hirsch', next week @tonic
in nyc. (just to remind you... who's in this area.)
@tonic, 107 norfolk st. (rivington x delancey), 212.358.7503
http://www.tonic107.com
a part of The New Music Series at Tonic
January curated by Arto Lindsay
wednesday, january 20th: 9 & 10:30 p.m.
Double Bill
"Figure 8"
features 2 sets of trios. Eyvind Kang plays in the both sets as an
'intersection' of the 'figure 8'.
1st set: Eyvind Kang, Jim Black & DJ Olive at 9:00
Kang (violin), Black (drums) & Olive (turntables)
2nd set: Ikue Mori, Eyvind Kang & Shelley Hirsch at 10:30
Mori (drum machines), Kang (violin), Hirsch (vocals)
all the members are among 'the essentials' in extremely wide range of
music field... no explanation is needed for these fellows. expect the
beautiful excitement!
1 night.2 trios.1 admission.10 dollars
this gig was described by bruce gallanter of downtown music gallery in
his recent newsletter:
2 sets of incredible downtown improv-Eyvind is an amazing
& diverse violinist who plays with Bill Frisell, Arto & the Sun City
Girls, but is here in NY for just one month-yeah!! Ikue is our fave el.
percussion/sampler player & Shelley our fave experimental vocalist, who
gigs are all too rare!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
end.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:10:05 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <proussel@ichips.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Experimental Vocalists
On Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:04:50 -0500 picnic thisway wrote:
>
And nobody mentioned the amazing David Moss!!!!
Patrice.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:55:56 -0800
From: Todd Bramy <tbramy@oz.net>
Subject: Marion Brown
The recent Marion Brown reissue from Impulse is called "Three For Shepp",
and it's a crackerjack. Unfortunately only about 35 minutes though.
Todd
- -
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:26:39 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <tpratt@ctech.smtc.net>
Subject: Brown/vocalists/recent stuff
Why has no one mentioned Marion Brown's two albums on ESP? They're my
favorite of all his records...
Also, as far as experimental vocalists, I have an affinity for Tuvan singer
Sainkho Namtchylak. She has been involved with free improv in Europe for
quite some time and has recorded CDs with Evan Parker, Ned Rothenberg and
others. I don't like the MCO discs on Leo or her pop music (imagine the worst
Real World recording times ten), but her solo disc on FMP ('Lost Rivers') and
her duo with Evan Parker ('Mars Song') are great.
I picked up the recent Taj Mahal Travellers reissue on P-Vine the other day
and it's absolutely phenomenal - four long and meditative (distinctly
Eastern) improvisations. Highly recommended. I also picked up Takehisa
Kosugi's 'Violin Solo' which P-Vine recently issued as well. Kosugi's playing
is very disjointed and abstract like Bailey but with more rhythmic
repetition. He uses an almost exaggerated vibrato like Ayler but it's very
fragmented and quick - not long and deep - given his music a sort of obscured
expression. Another great CD! Can anyone compare this one to his solo disc on
Lovely?
bye.
-Tom Pratt
- -
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:05:10 EST
From: MeandMrRay@aol.com
Subject: Big Jazz CD Sale!!
Hello Everyone,
I'm selling off a bunch of my CD's. If anyone is interested in checking out
the list, its available online at:
http://members.aol.com/meandmrray/cdsale.html
The Christmas season got a bit out of hand, and I hope that this sale will
help me get out of the hole I've put my self in. If there's any problems
opening the list, just give me a shout and I'll send it to you in an email.
Hope to hear from lots of people!
Hope everyone is well,
Greg.
PS> If anyone can suggest other pertinent place to post this offer, please let
me know. It would be a huge help.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:36:26 -0500
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36@sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: Marion Brown
Brian Olewnick wrote:
> Dan Given wrote:
>
> > Impulse Japan put out a couple of Brown CDs two or three years ago, more
> > late 60s/early 70s material I believe. Never saw them around (which is
> > probably a good thing because I can't afford Japanese imports)
>
> Could those be the 'Geechee Recollections', 'Sweet Earth Flying' and
> 'November Cotton Flower' trilogy?
Close... "Geechee Recollections," "Sweet Earth Flying" and "Vista." That last
one includes, among other things, compositions by both Harold Budd and Stevie
Wonder. Wanted them real bad, but couldn't stomach the price at the Virgin
Megastore on Times Square (the only place I ever saw these).
To the poster who remarked that he'd heard Brown wasn't well, that was, in
fact, true about two years ago, but he'd recovered enough by last summer to
play at the Vision Festival at least. I'd imagine he's still frail, but...
Steve Smith
ssmith36@sprynet.com
NP - Dan Plonsey, "Understanding Human Behavio" (Limited Sedition)
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:50:15 +0100
From: "Francesco Martinelli" <f.martinelli@comune.pisa.it>
Subject: R: New Jazz/New Improv
>I would agree with Patrice's idea that Parker has never played a solo
>that "could be associated with the jazz tradition" if that tradition
>only encompasses Chu Berry, Don Byas and Bob Cooper --to pick three names
>out of a beret.
A nice blindfold could be made extracting a choosed 20' from the
Braxton/Parker duo and asking people to identify the players. I guess more
than a few would say Konitz/Marsh. But then, for some people even that isn't
real jazz.
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:04:54 +0100
From: "Francesco Martinelli" <f.martinelli@comune.pisa.it>
Subject: R: New Jazz/New Improv
>Maybe the reason why I even argue on this topic is my feeling (confirmed by
>few interviews), that a lot of the free improv initially was more
influenced
>by classical contemporary music than by jazz.
>
EP openly acknowledged that his music could not have existed without jazz,
started as a jazz player and alwyays moved in jazz circles. Same can be said
about Watts, Stevens, Rutherford; among the founding figures of
improvisation in England I think Bailey and Guy are the less
jazz-influenced. Schlippenbach broke with the academia to play jazz; same
for Gaslini, of course the path of Mengelberg, Altena, Breuker, Bennink is
very similar. I can't see it all happening without (free) jazz. The DGG was
the one and only venture into that - remember that Stockhausen used
improvisation in his early pieces (hence the famous Globokar splice). A lot
of the jazz has been influenced by classical music too!!!
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:59:34 -0500
From: Peter Risser <risser@goodnews.net>
Subject: Last Call for Zornie nominations
That's it. Just last call. I'll probably count 'em up this weekend and
present the ballot on Monday.
Thanks,
Peter
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:59:20 -0500
From: Matthew Ross Davis <mrd@artswire.org>
Subject: sound environments
Sure, that actually happens a lot when improvisors begin experimenting with
their immediate environment to make sounds. Two examples: Norman Lowrey, a
composer at Drew University in NJ, has written pieces where you take sticks and
rocks and make sounds and listen in harmony with the immediate environment -
there is a piece of his where folks stuck sticks into rushing river waters and
listened to the sounds it made, improvising along with it.
Another example, Toshi Makihara is a percussionist out of Philly that does a
wonderful variety of free improv in which he almost always experiments with his
immediate surroundings - playing the walls, the floors, whatever he finds
laying around - to see what kind of acoustic properties they have, and he
does it in an extraordinarilly musical way.
- -*- Thanks for the suggestions, they'll help me greatly. Since I wasn't
- -*- exactly clear about the sound environment part... what I meant was the
- -*- harmonic tuning of various objects in an environment that has some other
- -*- purpose where sound is normally ignored. Like if the sound emitted from
- -*- various machines on an assembly line were tuned to each other, or someone
- -*- played with a pitches emitted by the fan, the toilet and the water taps in
- -*- their bathroom.
- -*- Chris
- --
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
- -
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:06:19 -0500
From: Matthew Ross Davis <mrd@artswire.org>
Subject: Re: Re: Experimental Vocalists
- -*- and, ooops!
- -*- has anybody mentioned 'makigami koichi'?! if not, he's a very
- -*- interesting voice performer & he'd be the only person who released
- -*- solo-voice cd from tzadik. his now-recurred band 'hikashu' would be one
- -*- of the most obscure pop band ever happened. (so, the band's input is
- -*- more easily accessible by any person, compared with the solo stuff. but
- -*- if you're looking into 'the experimental vocalist'. it's a must.)
Just a correction - Shelley has a CD on tzadik as well, and she has told me
that she's releasing another sometime soon.
- --
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| | m - a - t - t - h - e - w | r - o - s - s | d - a - v - i - s | |
| | http://www.artswire.org/mrd | | | | | | | UMD school of music | |
| | m-e-t-a-t-r-o-n p-r-e-s-s | | | http://www.artswire.org/comma | |
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
- -
------------------------------
End of Zorn List Digest V2 #575
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