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Zorn List Digest       Friday, December 18 1998       Volume 02 : Number 559



In this issue:
-
       Re: Gayle/Ware etc
       Wadada Leo Smith's Tao N'jia on Tzadik
       Re: what is Marty Ehrlich up to these days?
       Earlier improv roots--"Gerry Miles"
       Re: One more thing about free jazz
       Re: Free Jazz
       Re: Music/Arts Education
       Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)
       Re: new question bible launcher
       Re:  Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)
       Signal To Noise
       RE: Gayle/Ware etc

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:48:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, John Howard wrote:

> Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
> music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
> know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
> what) it communicates to them.

gee, i wonder if you could make your generalizations any broader?  you
sound like an old curmudgeon.  "why kids these days don't listen to
improv correctly..."  what a load of crap!  god forbid that anyone
younger than 45 start listening to improv.  i think this would fall under
zorn's "jazz snob eat..." category.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:43:40 -0800 (PST)
From: leon lee <[e-mail]>
Subject: Wadada Leo Smith's Tao N'jia on Tzadik

"Tao N'Jia" on Tzadik is an absolutely beautiful disc.
Highly recommended.  Tones and silences, ethereal and poignant.  This is
my most listened to Leo Smith album and it's been passed on to others as a
favorite as well.

Just bought the New York Art Quartet reissue on Get Back.  I was expecting
liner notes and there isn't any.  Anyone interested in photocopying it for
me?  Please mail me... thanks.

Be well
Leon Lee

We sit together, the mountain and me,
until only the mountain remains.
        -- Li Po
"If I'm going to get shot, I want to see who is doing the shooting."
        -- 'Sista' Marie Lee 12/9/98 @ Taqueria Can-cun


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:20:40 -0600
From: Charles Gillett <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: what is Marty Ehrlich up to these days?

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:24:17 -0800, "Patrice L. Roussel" wrote:
>    I just realized that Marty Ehrlich has been quite "discographically"
>silent these past few years. Anybody (from the city) knows what is he up to
>these days?

I'm not from the city, but when I was in the city (end of June) I saw on
the little placard posted outside the Internet Cafe that he had played
there with Tony Malaby a few days earlier.  I stopped in to hear a bit
of Barry Altschul with some people I didn't know, but the heat was stifling
and I was on my way to Tonic for Topaz anyway.

Re: Bible Launcher--
Perhaps the Radical House version just has additional tracks?  The Tzadik
issue has 30.  The extra ~12 minutes could be "bonus" material for the
reissue.
It's funny that the Bible Launcher page at radhs.com tells us to look for
Bible Launcher II on Tzadik, October '97, and the New Releases page tells
us to watch for Bible Launcher II on Tzadik, August '98.


- -- Charles



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:06:18 -0500
From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Earlier improv roots--"Gerry Miles"

Prolonging the discussion of novel improvisation:

Well, I am by no means an expert on the earliest roots of
improvisation but I have heard enough improv spanning the
60's through the 90's to hear that there is a repertoire
of idioms which are frequently employed.  My question is
this:  Two years ago, Alan Licht released an improv
recording on Atavistic, entitled "Gerry Miles" which
featured  Lucy Hamilton (aka Connie Burg of Mars)-bass clarinet,
Melissa Weaver-piano, organ, Alan Licht-organ, and Keiji Haino-
vocals and percussion.  When I first heard this I thought
it was something really special and my opinion hasn't changed
over the past two years.  I hadn't heard anything like it, and
to my ear it avoided the standard improv idioms, with
the sound of the recording was akin to something like a blending
of improv and the soundtrack to a horror film.  But, in light
of the discussion that "most present improv is a rehashing of
old improv ideas", I would like to know from some of you
folks more knowledgable regarding the early body of improv
work (who have perhaps heard the disc in question), if there
is a progenitor to this music.  If there is, I would be
interested in checking it out.  Thanks.

>> > [Patrice wrote] Kids
>> > who discovered jazz four years ago when Thurston Moore and Henry Rollins
>> > told them that there was music besides rock?

My feeling is that the avenue by which one discovers something
(including music) is not so important as the discovery itself.

David K.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:55:12 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: One more thing about free jazz

William York wrote:

>  My point was that I don't see
> how on earth they could be breaking even on anything but the Zorn CDs and
> a few others, and their output is so high (4-5 a month) it just amazes me
> how they keep it up - maybe grants or something.  Anyway, enough from me..

    Actually, the smaller companies are(or should be) in better shape than
ever.
In the early(mid 80's) days of CD, the cost of manufacturing the discs
ran about $7 each. Recently I arranged for the pressing of 500 demo
discs for a friend, and he paid less than $2. Since the retail price
hasn't really changed at all in the last 10 years, that leaves a much
more comfortable margin to build upon.

RW



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:58:40 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz

[e-mail] wrote:

> If anyone lives in or near Boston, BTW, Carter will be playing
> with Boston's "Saturnalia String Trio" (who are recording a disc with Carter
> for the Sublingual label, to be released in early 99)

Great review of a live show by said forces appears in the fine and still improving
Vermont based zine Signal to Noise, the December (I think) issue with Miles Davis
on the cover (for a nice feature on the Bitches Brew box).  A nifty little zine,
formerly known as Soundboard, that has one foot in the free improv / energy /
ecstatic scene and the other in the Phish-head / jam band scene... quite the
balancing act.  One sign that the magazine is growing in stature is that the
publicists for Columbia Legacy (not me!) hooked the mag up with interviews with
Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea and Dave Holland for the Bitches Brew piece... in general
fanzines never get such access.  You can find Signal to Noise in Tower and around
here it's also free in some clubs like the Knit.  E-mail me privately if you're
interested in their address and other particulars.

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:48:29 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Music/Arts Education

> >>
> it really is too bad that music/arts education is overlooked in the U.S.
>
> i remember when i was in 8th grade we had this music class where we did things like
> listen
> to popular music ( an example at the time was Steve Wonder's "Living For The City")
> and discuss
> what the lyrics were getting at.
>
> we also would listen to orchestral music and attempt to identifiy the
> instuments...and discuss their
> respective functions.
>
> i thought it was pretty damn cool.
>
> does _anything_ like this go on in schools anymore?
> >
I'm writing from Ontario, Canada and I was in a similar situation in
highschool where the music education created a higher caliber of musical
discussion than in my university level music classes.  This was though the
result of one individual who went outside the curriculum.  The situation
in Ontario seems to get worse exponentially with each day as more and more
arts program are cut, which is as far as I'm concerned a violent act on
behalf of the government as many people's basis for the beginnings of
cultural criticism stems from the arts in some way.  Anyways this stems
pretty far from improv but I'll swing it back by saying I truely believe
many musical forms empower a person directly or indirectly avant improv
being high on that list.  Jacques Attali has a great concept of music's
"essential violence"  which, while inexorably linked with improvision in
ways in his mind, is basically it's subversiveness that dominant culture
attempts to cleanse from music. It would be interesting to find out how
many other people on the list discovered potentially subversive music
through educational institutions....


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:59:17 -0500
From: Steve Smith <[e-mail]>
Subject: Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)

[e-mail] wrote:

> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > (Jon didn't mention that the unheralded New Orleans free jazz pioneer
> > saxophonist Kidd Jordan was also part of that set... perhaps understandable as
>
> > he was woefully under-amplified.)
>
> Just to clarify here, I didn't mention Jordan because I wasn't talking about
> the quartet performance at this year's festival. I was talking about the trio
> performance at the first festival, two or three years ago, which was an
> infinitely more powerful set.

My apologies to Jon and all Zornlisters for this error.  It now appears to me that
I just haven't had the luck to encounter very many of Gayle's stronger
performances.  Anyway, I have to admit that I've felt pretty guilty since sending
that message dismissing Gayle so strongly a few nights ago, even if I was being
completely honest.  But music is such a subjective experience that I'd hate to
think someone didn't check out Gayle simply because I posted a negative review.
Geez, that's why I decided not to become a professional music critic!  Who the
fuck am I to criticize Gayle's life's work?

In light of which, I want to share an anecdote just to see what kind of discussion
this raises.  Beyond it being my job to communicate with professional music
critics, it is often my pleasure to do so because I am a longtime fan of music
journalism.  In high school I actually used to clip reviews of my favorite bands
and paste them into scrapbooks, and before long I found myself noticing how many
reviews I enjoyed were by the same few writers.  Growing up in the late '70s and
early '80s, Rafi Zabor (now a novelist), Kurt Loder (now an MTV talking head) and
Charles M. Young (now at Playboy and what else?) were among those I clipped the
most.

A number of my favorite contemporary critics, with whose opinions I normally
resonate greatly, have written very favorably about the pianist Marcus Roberts in
recent years, labelling his 1997 release "Blues for the New Millenium" as being
among their favorite releases of the year.  I listened to the album and found it
largely unimpressive.  But I went to hear Roberts at his latest Village Vanguard
engagement anyway.  And I found it unbearably stiff, not to mention about as
"soulfully authentic and swinging" (all "musts" for a Wynton Marsalis band
alumnus) as Emerson, Lake and Palmer.

I asked the same critics in question what they'd thought of the same music I'd
heard, and again they raved that it was marvellous.

My question is this (and it's not a publicist's marketing research but a genuine
question from a fellow traveller - remember, I'm posting this later than 6 p.m.,
always a good sign that I'm not "working"):  Most of us seem to use the Penguin
Guide and other such tools to guide our purchases to some extent.  And we read
Cadence, Down Beat, Magnet, Puncture, Forced Exposure or whatever else to find out
what's new.  But how much importance do the critics have in what we actually
decide to motivate ourselves to go to a store (or surf to a website) and lay down
cold hard cash?

I'll start:  I'll *often* go buy or attend something a favorite critic has
recommended, even if I'm on occasion disappointed.  But *more* often lately, I'll
go buy something recommended by a fellow Zornlister first.  (Hell, if Jon Abbey
alone got a commission on all the things he's coaxed me into buying...)

Make no mistake, I do think music criticism, as with all of arts criticism, has
its place.  It's a valuable ongoing record of the development of the arts scene
and to personal (and to some extent societal reactions to same), and it's also
frequently just interesting reading material - most of the time I have no plan
whatsoever to hear most of what Cadence reviews, instead living it vicariously
through the critic's prose.

Thoughts?  (Don't be shy, Jason...)

Steve Smith
[e-mail]


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:55:43 -0800
From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: new question bible launcher

>  So why did Tzadik delete it, if it was already heavily censored ?
>
>  YVes
>
>  P.S. How many tracks are there on the original ?

 37 tracks

mike
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 03:37:16 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Music Criticism (was Re: Penguin Guide)

In a message dated 12/18/98 2:01:43 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<I'll *often* go buy or attend something a favorite critic has
recommended, even if I'm on occasion disappointed.  But *more* often lately,
I'll
go buy something recommended by a fellow Zornlister first.>>

I try to use what critics have to say about a record or an artist just as I
use the opinions of people on this list or the opinions of people in record
stores; I listen to what they have to say and try to figure out how it
overlaps with my taste. some record store employees and some acquaintances I
can almost use as contrary indicators; if they are raving about it, it's a
pretty safe bet I don't care. a lot of the purchasing I do is also based on
what label the music is on; if it's a quality label like FMP, Corpus
Hermeticum, Incus, Matchless, or Mille Plateaux, to name a few, I'm more
likely to buy it than not. I find the Forced Exposure web site (www.fe.org)
invaluable for info about new releases.

I also try to find experts on specific styles of music to help me figure out
what the key records are in a genre. in dub, for instance, Steve Barrow, who
curates the Blood And Fire reissue label, has superb taste. so I buy most
records on that label, hoping to find gems. I have friends who know a lot
about Brazilian and Latin music and have helped me make my way through a bit
of the extensive Dusty Groove catalog (www.dustygroove.com).

there are some critics who can talk me into buying records. I was on the fence
about the Bitches Brew set, until I read Sasha Frere-Jones' review of it in
Time Out NY, which got me to go buy it. in the same manner, I was on the fence
about the recent Varese set, until I read Steve Smith's superb review of it
here (anyone remember the old Spy Magazine feature "Logrolling In Our Time"?).

but these two are examples of music I was already considering buying. the fact
that Jim O'Rourke, whose taste I greatly respect, repeatedly raves about the
Spice Girls in his interview in the new issue of Resonance, isn't going to
make me pick up Spice World. sorry, Jim.

one last big factor for me in identifying artists that I like, and records
that I should buy, is live shows. between being in NYC, and attending the
Victoriaville festival the past three years, I've gotten to see a fairly large
percentage of artists that I'm interested in over the years. having seen Evan
Parker play in four different contexts helps me to appreciate his recorded
work, just as less enjoyable concerts have allowed me to steer clear of many
records that I've ended up hearing and being glad I didn't buy.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:36:09 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Signal To Noise

Steve Smith wrote:

> [e-mail] wrote:
>
> > If anyone lives in or near Boston, BTW, Carter will be playing
> > with Boston's "Saturnalia String Trio" (who are recording a disc with Carter
> > for the Sublingual label, to be released in early 99)
>
> Great review of a live show by said forces appears in the fine and still improving
> Vermont based zine Signal to Noise, the December (I think) issue with Miles Davis
> on the cover (for a nice feature on the Bitches Brew box).  A nifty little zine,
> formerly known as Soundboard, that has one foot in the free improv / energy /
> ecstatic scene and the other in the Phish-head / jam band scene... quite the
> balancing act.  One sign that the magazine is growing in stature is that the
> publicists for Columbia Legacy (not me!) hooked the mag up with interviews with
> Joe Zawinul, Chick Corea and Dave Holland for the Bitches Brew piece... in general
> fanzines never get such access.  You can find Signal to Noise in Tower and around
> here it's also free in some clubs like the Knit.  E-mail me privately if you're
> interested in their address and other particulars.

I occassionally write CD reviews for this magazine. I wrote a short one on
Gustafsson/Guy in the Miles issue and on the  Houtkamp/Van Hove/Prins and solo
Gert-Jan Prins CD's in the new one (coming out soon?). I hope that doesn't deter you
all from reading it...

Anyway, you can contact their publisher, Pete Gershon, at <[e-mail]> if you're
interested in a subscription. There's also a newly formed Signal To Noise discussion
group at onelist.com so check it out!

                                -Tom Pratt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:06:55 -0600
From: John Howard <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Gayle/Ware etc

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Lopez [mailto:[e-mail]]
>
> Has anyone out there had any progressions of this kind that
> they can actually
> recall enough to talk about the differences?
>
> I think this stems from the fact that I regularly give my
> 22-year-old son
> tapes and CDs that I'm listening to, and I wish I could crawl
> into *his* head
> and know what it's doing to him. The boy says he loves it...
>
My experience was that I liked jazz from childhood, mostly Miles Davis and
Dave Brubeck, and gradually got into it more and more as I got more bored
with rock.  When I first heard the more out there jazz of the 60's (in the
late 80's, when it was REALLY hard to find) I had a few years of listening
to punk, post-punk, hip-hop and hardcore under belt, so it made sense.  It
was just a question of finding it.  No fuss, no muss as they say...  Cecil
Taylor in particular (its funny you should mention him) struck me right
away.  I couldn't get enough of his music, still can't! Since then, I don't
even think of it as separate from "jazz", as seems to happen a lot. I like
Frank Lowe like I like Art Pepper.  I like Woody Shaw like I like Derek
Bailey. All part of the same continuum.  john

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #559
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