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Zorn List Digest      Thursday, December 17 1998      Volume 02 : Number 557



In this issue:
-
       Gayle/Ware etc
       Re: Gayle/Ware etc
       Re: Gayle/Ware etc
       One more thing about free jazz/Ellery Eskelin's new CD
       Wadada Leo Smith on Tzadik
       Re: Gayle/Ware etc
       RE: new question bible launcher
       avant website
       Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)
       Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)
       Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)
       Re: Gayle

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:48:16 -0600
From: John Howard <[e-mail]>
Subject: Gayle/Ware etc

As a digest reader I am kinda catching up to the amazing free jazz
discussion. I have to say the new Charles Gayle (Daily Bread) really changes
his modus operandi, there is a great deal of variety from song to song, even
improv string quartets(!), he has cut down the song lengths (something he
has been veering towards) and his horn playing is not as assaultive.  Now I
LIKE assaultive, but at times it did get samey (as I think Steve Smith
said). He also fares better with better musicians around him.  Touching on
Trane and Kingdom Come (with Sunny Murray) are the best.
Whoever mentioned religiosity in the debate (Patrice?) was onto something.
Gayle's has become very oppressive, and the liner notes to Daily Bread are
particularly bad. In their own way as bad as the hideous rant in the Victo
album. Yikes.
On the Ware tip, he always changes from album to album and I think he sorta
avoids nostalgia in that way. Godspelized is, to my ears, the most retro of
all of his albums, Dao is much better, it doesn't so much copy Coltrane as
much as it moves beyond were he was around the time of Live In Seattle. A
form of jazz that lay fallow, in a sense, for a while.
Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
what) it communicates to them.  Recently I have improv-ed in front of
several audiences that just sit there, and then afterwards come up and tell
us how great we were. Either they are lying, or they aren't listening.  Its
not like I expect them to jump up and down, but they just don't *react*.  I
can't explain it better then that. Sorry for going on. Back to the more
intelligent commentary. john

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:47:00 -0300
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc

John Howard wrote:
>
> Another thing, one of the by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
> music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
> know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
> what) it communicates to them.

[well, maybe I have a little time for this...;-)]
Hey, I have this urge to go back into my head about twenty-five years ago,
when I first began listening to this music. I wish I could remember on what
level I heard it, or felt it, or comprehended it-- but I can't. I was 19 in
'72, when I heard the first Weather Report disc and a Braxton recording, I
don't recall which, and I ended up going after whatever it was they were
doing (did I "know?") for a few years. And I'd say I was "in the area" of
improv through '76 or so, then frittered off elsewhere...

Anyway, when I finally got back to it (I mean as far as really DIVING in, not
just checking it out now and then as I had over the ensuing decades) it was
around '94, and upon revisiting this realm I was astonished at how much my
listening experience had made this music (in its best moments, like Taylor's
UNIT STRUCTURES ferinstance) sound so perfectly spooled out that it now
seemed as if it were preordained-- so logical and articulate were the moments
tumbling out of my speakers. So, right, of course my roads travelled
musically over the years had deepened my listening ability, but I wish I
could remember what it felt like back in my youth, enough to do a
side-by-side-- to really look at that change. But I can't.

Has anyone out there had any progressions of this kind that they can actually
recall enough to talk about the differences?

I think this stems from the fact that I regularly give my 22-year-old son
tapes and CDs that I'm listening to, and I wish I could crawl into *his* head
and know what it's doing to him. The boy says he loves it...

Just wondering...
Rrrrr
- --
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S. Ware, and
Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000
Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:50:12 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc

> Whoever mentioned religiosity in the debate (Patrice?) was onto something.
> Gayle's has become very oppressive, and the liner notes to Daily Bread are
> particularly bad. In their own way as bad as the hideous rant in the Victo
> album. Yikes.

I've heard from a few people that Gayle is anti-homosexual for religious
reasons. Is there any truth to that? I know this sort of borders on gossip and
may be unethical to post to a public list but if it's something well known that
Gayle is open about...

Also, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Gayle referred to his new album
(Daily Bread?) as "nice but it's been done before." Maybe Gayle himself agrees
with Steve and others after all! (:

                                -Tom Pratt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:19:20 -0500 (EST)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: One more thing about free jazz/Ellery Eskelin's new CD

> > this stuff a lot (M. Shipp's "Prism" for ex.), but its 'popularity' does
> > certainly owe something to this recent hipness.  These folks have been
> > around for 20-25 years and people are treating it like its a new thing.
>
> by the same token, i can't believe that anyone would begrudge shipp the
> popularity!  is he only worthwhile if he's totally obscured?  i mean,
> rollins may be into shipp, but when shipp's string trio played here in
> d.c. there weren't anymore people (give or take ten) in attendance than

That's why I put popularity in quotes, because no one doing this is
popular by most people's standards.  And I could see how you might take
these comments as snobbery, because I certainly wasn't born into this
stuff.  But from my point of view, working at a college radio station,
Shipp/Parker/Ware get about as much attention as anybody else in improv
combined (excepting people who have played in Tortoise or Gastr del Sol).
I hear just about every release they put out and many others, and while
they are not consistently 'better' than others (including Gerry Hemingway,
Dave Douglas, Gianni Gebbia, Georg Graewe, Derek Bailey, even Zorn), they
are more well known whether people actually like them or not.  Part of
this owes to their persistance in pursuing college radio, so in some ways
they've earned it.

Anyway, on the topic of improv related things I was wondering if anyone
else has heard the newest Ellery Eskelin/Jim Black/Andrea Parkins CD on
hatology.  I think its great, an improvement on the one from last year. He
has talked about wanting to avoid the traditional dynamics of improv and
structures his music out in interesting ways.  I don't think his writing
is quite on the level as his tenor playing - that would be saying a
lot - but its still interesting and seems to be coninually improving.  I'm
surprised his name doesn't pop up on this list a little more often

Oh, one more thing about Tzadik I forgot to say, he also said it was
profit sharing or something to that effect.  My point was that I don't see
how on earth they could be breaking even on anything but the Zorn CDs and
a few others, and their output is so high (4-5 a month) it just amazes me
how they keep it up - maybe grants or something.  Anyway, enough from me..


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:39:40 -0500
From: eric <[e-mail]>
Subject: Wadada Leo Smith on Tzadik

Hi guys,

I was wondering what people think of Wadada's disc on Tzadik.  I glanced at
it briefly today, and I saw that it has a Toru Takemitsu tribute of some
kind?  The reason I'm asking for people's reactions is that I recently
picked up Smith's disc with N'Da Kulture ('Golden Hearts Remembrance'), and
I was kinda disappointed by it.  I've enjoyed most of Smith's previous
work, but judging from this release, perhaps he needs some more warming up?
 Just wondering.  The Tzadik disc looks exciting.

Thanks for any help,
Eric.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:58:06 -0500 (EST)
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Gayle/Ware etc

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, John Howard wrote
Another thing, one of the
by-products of the new po-mo indie kids liking the
> music is that they are so reverent that they will accept most improv
> uncritically and at the same time not engage it on
> a...ummm..spiritual?...level. I have called it "broccoli syndrome", they
> know its good for them, so they endure it, never questioning whether (or
> what) it communicates to them.  Recently I have improv-ed in front of
> several audiences that just sit there, and then afterwards come up and tell
> us how great we were. Either they are lying, or they aren't listening.  Its
> not like I expect them to jump up and down, but they just don't *react*.  I
> can't explain it better then that. Sorry for going on. Back to the more
> intelligent commentary. john
>
Could it be that rather then not critically engaging it on some personal
level they just don't have the experience to communicate their cognitive
and somatic reasons.  Who was it, LAurie Anderson ?, who said "writing
about music is like dancing about architechture" and that would
subsequently hold true for speaking about it (and doing so to the musicain
who just finished performing it who you don't know personally probably
only amplifies it).  Even on this list where plenty of extremely
insightful and educated musical commentary goes on, few descriptions of
music attempt to describe in musical terms or spiritual terms what
the interplay of voices achieved at specific moments in live improv or
other simililarly difficult musical experiences had at their core.
This relates back to the recent education issue, not only does the
standard education (or resources to educate yourself) deprive students of
a lot of valuable music but it does not encourage people to verbally
express musical experiences.
In the end if these "indie kids" really don't get anything out of
it after a lengthy experimental period other than a feeling that somehow
it is benefiting them by osmosis they'll tire of it and leave you with
less people paying the cover.

Chris Tonelli


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:49:48 -0800
From: Michael Howes <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: new question bible launcher

>I think the one on Tzadik just ended up being a rerelease
>of the other one, though I don't know for sure.
>The sample track on that site is on the Tzadik release.
>However, the site mentions that the other release is over
>an hour long, while the Tzadik one is about 50 minutes.

 I have the original (never knew the Tzadik release saw the light of day)
and the original is 62 minutes. I think the Tzadik one is the "censored"
version, where they removed a lot of the samples of the preachers for fear
of getting sued. Which would honestly destroy the listening pleasure of
this CD for me.

 mike
[e-mail]



- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:06:57 +0100
From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: avant website

> From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
> Subject: avant
>
> what is the url for the avant site?

As far as I know, the label doesn't have an official website.

The best thing to do is go to
http://www.forcedexposure.com
and then browse by label.

Hope this helps.
- --
Stefan Verstraeten
NP William Hooker: Mindfulness (with Dj Olive) hip stuff, man

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:24:51 -0500
From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)

>     I meant to mention in my last post something that bears on the
>     discussion here and, surprisingly, I haven't seen brought up yet:
>     Bailey's remarkable 'Invisible Jukebox' session in the current WIRE.
>     What a refreshing difference between his catankerous, intelligent and
>     outrageous observations and those of the usual tranceheads! His
>     comments about recordings and the quixotic idea of perhaps only
>     listening to a record _once_ are wonderful and bracingly extreme.
>
>     Brian Olewnick
>

I scanned over some of Bailey's comments in Wire while at a friend's house,
and don't remember seeing the bit about listening to a record once.  But, I
must say I think that is my ultimate goal.  As jazz and  improv
performances are meant to be unique, the purpose of a record, to me, is the
bring that performance to those not fortunate enough to be there when it
occurred.
However, limited finances obviously make this goal unattainable, as I
usually listen to two or three records a day, but can't afford to buy even
one a day.

However, I do have lots of really good albums that I have only played once,
and they tend to be along the European free improv line. I take the
attitude that I need to hear this stuff, but I don't think that it was
meant for repeated listening.  Ideally, I would like to be able to hear it
all in chronological order, to listen to the development.

Oddly, I think the stuff that gets played most in my house are albums I am
less interested in, stuff that I can ignore and use as background.  I don't
really have the time that I want to devote to close listening, so the
things that get the most play are things I less need to focus on. Either
things I've heard a lot (i.e. classic jazz like Nonk, Mingus, Ornette), or
newer stuff that is good, but no surprises.  Masada is good for this, so is
Ware, Parker, etc because I usually know where it is going, and can tune in
and out as needed.

just rambling
Dan


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:24:51 -0500
From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)

>     I meant to mention in my last post something that bears on the
>     discussion here and, surprisingly, I haven't seen brought up yet:
>     Bailey's remarkable 'Invisible Jukebox' session in the current WIRE.
>     What a refreshing difference between his catankerous, intelligent and
>     outrageous observations and those of the usual tranceheads! His
>     comments about recordings and the quixotic idea of perhaps only
>     listening to a record _once_ are wonderful and bracingly extreme.
>
>     Brian Olewnick
>

I scanned over some of Bailey's comments in Wire while at a friend's house,
and don't remember seeing the bit about listening to a record once.  But, I
must say I think that is my ultimate goal.  As jazz and  improv
performances are meant to be unique, the purpose of a record, to me, is the
bring that performance to those not fortunate enough to be there when it
occurred.
However, limited finances obviously make this goal unattainable, as I
usually listen to two or three records a day, but can't afford to buy even
one a day.

However, I do have lots of really good albums that I have only played once,
and they tend to be along the European free improv line. I take the
attitude that I need to hear this stuff, but I don't think that it was
meant for repeated listening.  Ideally, I would like to be able to hear it
all in chronological order, to listen to the development.

Oddly, I think the stuff that gets played most in my house are albums I am
less interested in, stuff that I can ignore and use as background.  I don't
really have the time that I want to devote to close listening, so the
things that get the most play are things I less need to focus on. Either
things I've heard a lot (i.e. classic jazz like Nonk, Mingus, Ornette), or
newer stuff that is good, but no surprises.  Masada is good for this, so is
Ware, Parker, etc because I usually know where it is going, and can tune in
and out as needed.

just rambling
Dan


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:24:51 -0500
From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Bailey/Wire (was something about improv)

>     I meant to mention in my last post something that bears on the
>     discussion here and, surprisingly, I haven't seen brought up yet:
>     Bailey's remarkable 'Invisible Jukebox' session in the current WIRE.
>     What a refreshing difference between his catankerous, intelligent and
>     outrageous observations and those of the usual tranceheads! His
>     comments about recordings and the quixotic idea of perhaps only
>     listening to a record _once_ are wonderful and bracingly extreme.
>
>     Brian Olewnick
>

I scanned over some of Bailey's comments in Wire while at a friend's house,
and don't remember seeing the bit about listening to a record once.  But, I
must say I think that is my ultimate goal.  As jazz and  improv
performances are meant to be unique, the purpose of a record, to me, is the
bring that performance to those not fortunate enough to be there when it
occurred.
However, limited finances obviously make this goal unattainable, as I
usually listen to two or three records a day, but can't afford to buy even
one a day.

However, I do have lots of really good albums that I have only played once,
and they tend to be along the European free improv line. I take the
attitude that I need to hear this stuff, but I don't think that it was
meant for repeated listening.  Ideally, I would like to be able to hear it
all in chronological order, to listen to the development.

Oddly, I think the stuff that gets played most in my house are albums I am
less interested in, stuff that I can ignore and use as background.  I don't
really have the time that I want to devote to close listening, so the
things that get the most play are things I less need to focus on. Either
things I've heard a lot (i.e. classic jazz like Nonk, Mingus, Ornette), or
newer stuff that is good, but no surprises.  Masada is good for this, so is
Ware, Parker, etc because I usually know where it is going, and can tune in
and out as needed.

just rambling
Dan


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:43:11 GMT0BST
From: DR S WILKIE <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Gayle

While the comparision with Ayler will be misunderstood/perceived as
odious, I must say that Gayle's quartets in 1993 with William Parker
represent a purple patch for me: I feel the same way about Ayler in
1964, tho' I haven't much time for the rest of his work ...

Oh, and recently someone asked about Stanko's Leosia (re; Penguin
recommendation) ... I like it, but it isn't much better than Matka
Joanna ... in fact, live recordings of this band seem preferable to
me, partly because they seem to medley all the pieces. Thus, the
improvisations bridge two different pieces, and have a dynamism
where the albums sometimes sound a bit static.  Also: they're pretty
wild live!

Sean (unsubscribing for Xmas)

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #557
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