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Zorn List Digest     Wednesday, December 16 1998     Volume 02 : Number 556



In this issue:
-
       not list related: ralph steadman
       Re[2]: Free Jazz
       avant
       Re: Penguin Guide
       new question bible launcher
       RE: new question bible launcher
       Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)
       Fwd: not list related: ralph steadman
       Dock Boggs & Bluegrass [tangent from the 'penguin' free jazz thread]
       Re: Penguin/Improv/How Does Zorn Pay for It
       Re: Re[2]: Free Jazz
       Re: Penguin Guide
       Re: Free Jazz
       Re[4]: Free Jazz
       Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)
       Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:17:44 +0100 (MET)
From: BJOERN <[e-mail]>
Subject: not list related: ralph steadman

i hope someone from this list can help me. OFF TOPIC!!!!!!!
i am looking for a book of illustrations by ralph steaman.
there is a lot of stuff out there by him, that can be found on amazon for
example, but it coesnt say if these are books full of pictures or
biographies or whatever. can someone name the title of a book that mainly
consists of his illustrations??????

thanx

BJOERN
ps: answer privately


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 09:01:35 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: Free Jazz

     Fine discussion; nice to get everyone's blood flowing once in a while.
     FWIW, I largely agree with Patrice's original post and share the
     opinion, implied by some, that the Gayle/Parker/Aum Fidelity axis is,
     at least, highly over-rated; Patrice's "guilty WASP" comment and
     William's observation on faux-spirituality are both, IMO, dead on.
     Joseph's listing of free improv predictabilities superbly captured
     aspects of a disturbing number of performances I've seen and heard
     (though I try to keep Sturgeon's Law in mind at all times).

     I don't go quite as far as Patrice (if it's an accurate assessment of
     his stance) that free improv is completely played out; I still come
     across new (to me) areas for investigation, which this past year would
     include Braxton's 'Compositions 10 + 16' and a concert at Roulette by
     Polwechsel which concentrated to great extent on small sounds. As long
     as creative musical minds continue to come along _who decide to go
     into_ free improv, I don't see any reason why the art form won't
     continue to be viable, just as I don't expect good conversationalists
     to disappear. A question might be whether or not those minds will, in
     fact, go in that direction, or whether they'll view that arena as
     overworked and barren. I'm not quite so sanguine, unfortunately, about
     the future of jazz (as commonly defined), but that's another story.

     Brian Olewnick

     (who, with two weeks left, still has Bailey's 'Takes Fakes and Dead
     She Dances' at the top of his Year's Best list)



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:29:33 -0800
From: Jason Tors <[e-mail]>
Subject: avant

what is the url for the avant site?

Thanks

JT

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:38:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide

On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, Tom Pratt wrote:

> Think of all that we attack Wynton Marsalis for - trying to keep alive an
> old form of music that we believe to be dead. We accuse him of not
> causing any true musical progress. Well, the music Wynton is trying to
> uphold was as innovative at the time as free improv and avant-garde
> jazz was in the 60's.

hard bop was never about innovation.  it was all about refinement.  and
marsalis wasn't playing music during that period.  neither were any of
his contemporaries.  according to the rough guide to jazz, gayle has been
involved with the free jazz scene since the seventies.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:38:14 +0100
From: Stefan Verstraeten <[e-mail]>
Subject: new question bible launcher

Hi,
after some search on infoseek, i found the following page:
http://www.radhs.com/bibleL.html

So the bible launcher that was supposed to come out on tzadik but never
did (only some copies were made) seems to be bible launcher part two.

Does anyone has some info on the first bible launcher cd???

Best wishes
- --
Stefan Verstraeten
NP F.L.C. 100% Columbian (I know it, it is mainstream, but I dig it)

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:54:59 -0600
From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: new question bible launcher

I think the one on Tzadik just ended up being a rerelease
of the other one, though I don't know for sure.
The sample track on that site is on the Tzadik release.
However, the site mentions that the other release is over
an hour long, while the Tzadik one is about 50 minutes.

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:09:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998, William York wrote:

> I have all of these same suspicions, not to say that I don't like some of
> this stuff a lot (M. Shipp's "Prism" for ex.), but its 'popularity' does
> certainly owe something to this recent hipness.  These folks have been
> around for 20-25 years and people are treating it like its a new thing.

by the same token, i can't believe that anyone would begrudge shipp the
popularity!  is he only worthwhile if he's totally obscured?  i mean,
rollins may be into shipp, but when shipp's string trio played here in
d.c. there weren't anymore people (give or take ten) in attendance than
at any other improv show around here.  shipp isn't making money
hand-over-fist by any means.  seems like the argument i've been hearing
on this list is that unless a listener was born into free improv, you
have no right discovering from the likes of thurston or rollins.  that's
pure snobbery!  if improv is dying, as patrice asserts, then it's because
of attitudes like that and not artistic stagnation.

> > to asking "well, wire were good, but what's the point of fugazi?"  (or
> > even "julius hemphill was good, but what's the point of tim berne?")  i
>
> Eck, are you serious! There's certainly a bigger difference in Berne,
> like w/ Bloodcount, and Hemphill (or Fugazi and Wire) than Gayle/Ware and
> Coltrane/Ayler.  Is there not? I was just listening to the recent William
> Parker In Order To Survive CD, which is good, but compared to Nefertiti,
> done 37 years earlier, I don't know.  I feel like it (Parker's stuff) gets
> more predictable and has more of a tendency to dead end than what Taylor
> and co. were doing, which to me is not a sign of refinement.

sure there is a difference between wire and fugazi.  that was my whole
point.  both are punk bands, yet just because there is a decade's
difference between them that does not invalidate fugazi.  should people
stop making music within the punk idiom because someone has already made
punk rock?  seeing in order to survive *quartet* live, i never made the
connection between and taylor's piano-sax-drums *trio*.  hell, just
watching susie ibarra should clue you in to the continuing vitality of
improvisation.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:47:48 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Fwd: not list related: ralph steadman

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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From: [e-mail]
Return-path: <[e-mail]>
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: not list related: ralph steadman
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:46:21 EST
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Hiya there,
    I saw that Steadman book at the Quimby's in Chicago recently...Lots of pics
and lots of writings...  Definately worth checking out if your any sort of fan
of his work or Hunter's.  Quite pricey though...I believe about $50 but the
book is thick (probably about 4x's the size of a Robert Williams.) Aloha!

Hey i arrived late on here so I'm not sure if anyone caught Masada in Portland
about 6 weeks ago.  I have a audio tape of the performance if anyone is
interested in trading.

- --part0_913823269_boundary--

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:55:19 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Dock Boggs & Bluegrass [tangent from the 'penguin' free jazz thread]

In a message dated 98-12-15 19:05:54 EST, you write:
> i say that it stems from a tradition, just as
>(bluegrass banjo player) roscoe holcomb was influenced by (bluegrass banjo
>player) dock boggs.

Normally, I wouldn't strike the pedantic pose here, but since this thread is,
at least in part, one of definitions and hair-splitting, what the heck. Dock
(yes, with a "k") Boggs' banjo style, later an influence on some bluegrass
pickers, was not bluegrass in itself [and "folk" musician Holcomb can pick
bluegrass, but very rarely does]. It was rooted in old-time/clawhammer
appalachian playing, and though his finger positioning conformed at an early
date to what would later be used by bluegrass players, the results (and
techniques he used) were never what would be considered "bluegrass," any more
than what Louis Armstrong was doing in the late '20s would be considered bop.

OK, so much for the tangent few give a shit about besides myself. . .

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:37:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Saidel Eric J <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Penguin/Improv/How Does Zorn Pay for It

According to William York:
>
> > I've always wondered how it is that JZ manages (financially, that is) his
> > prodigious output and label-overseeing. More power to him.
>
> On the Tzadik radio hour promo he says that Tzadik is non-profit, which
> I suppose means they get money from somewhere (?)  Or is it his money?

Don't misread "non-profit" that doesn't mean what you would expect.
Tzadik might well make money and be non-profit.  They just have
to put it back into the company rather than disbursing bonuses
to all the fat cat execs.  (I'm far from an expert on this, so
don't take this as gospel.  But don't get fooled by the "non-profit"
label.  Paul Newman, for example, might advertise that all the
profits from his various food enterprises go to charity, but
that doesn't mean that he doesn't make anything.  It just means
that *after* all the salaries are paid - including his, which
could be immense - and all the expenses, and all the monies for
development, etc. are disbursed, then the pennies that are left
go to charity.)

- - eric



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:40:15 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Free Jazz

A little clarification to my fairly harsh mail.

On Wed, 16 Dec 98 09:01:35 -0500  [e-mail] wrote:
>
>      I don't go quite as far as Patrice (if it's an accurate assessment of
>      his stance) that free improv is completely played out; I still come

I was not going so far. I believe improvisation as being one the many tools
a composer can use to write great music. Based on the talent and imagination
of the artist, it can lead to the best or to the worst (although for some
die-hard anything out of improv cannot be bad...).

My main beef was about presenting the usual free-improv format as new,
cutting-edge, breakthrough, fresh, etc. The problem is that too much of
free-improv these days does not add anything to what has already been
done, but still expects (read the flyers, the liner notes, the reviews)
to be in the "cutting-edge" bucket.

A few people mentioned interesting names. Jim O'Rourke, for example, is
somebody who felt that free-improv was in a dead end and decided to use
part of the idiom and move it in a different direction (by his refusal
to use the cliches of the genre -- you remember how annoyed some people
were because he did not want to play according to the rules? many even
said that he did not know how to improvise). Martin Tetreault is hardly
somebody that I would put under free-improv. He has more to do with
electro-acoustic/DJ music than anything else.

I was not thinking at all about artists trying to pull free-improv in new
directions (which is a good reason for me to admire them). In fact, I
think these artists (such as Jim O'Rourke, Zorn in the late '70s,(when
he designed his game pieces), etc) are/were creating a new genre and are
just put in the "free-improv" bucket for practical reasons.

    Patrice.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:50:08 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Penguin Guide

In a message dated 12/16/98 1:56:15 AM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<> > this is captured on Touchin' On Trane, which I think is one of a handful
of
> > the best American jazz records of the nineties. I saw this trio (William
> > Parker and Rashied Ali) a couple of times and they floored me. and the
> > performance of Gayle, Parker and Milford Graves at the first Vision
Festival
> > was the most powerful concert in this style I've ever seen.

As for the Vision Festival performance, I'd agree that it was very
powerful.  (Jon didn't mention that the unheralded New Orleans free jazz
pioneer
saxophonist Kidd Jordan was also part of that set... perhaps understandable as
he
was woefully under-amplified.>>

Just to clarify here, I didn't mention Jordan because I wasn't talking about
the quartet performance at this year's festival. I was talking about the trio
performance at the first festival, two or three years ago, which was an
infinitely more powerful set. Gayle may never hit the heights that he hit in
that show again, since by all accounts, he's disappointing now, and hasn't
especially impressed me the last few times I've seen him. the only record of
his (and I've heard most of them) that's truly satisfying is Touchin' On
Trane. check this out before you write him off. and seeing him live at the old
Knitting Factory when he first reemerged, or at the Cooler with Parker and
Ali, was a deeply moving experience.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:02:51 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Free Jazz

In a message dated 12/16/98 12:42:06 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Martin Tetreault is hardly  somebody that I would put under free-improv. He
has more to do with electro-acoustic/DJ music than anything else.>>

the CD I mentioned in this thread was recorded live, in one take. the set that
you and I both saw in Victoriaville was no more planned than any Ware or Shipp
set, probably less. Tetreault is a member of the London Musician's Collective
and plays over there in the improvising scene occasionally.

if you're going to say improv is dead, and then claim anyone doing anything
different in terms of improv is a part of a different genre, then of course
you'e not going to find anything new.

if your point is that the "ecstatic" NY axis of jazz is basically creatively
bankrupt, as I said before, I pretty much agree. I almost literally fell
asleep during Matthew Shipp's trio set in Victo last year. on the other hand,
the new William Parker set is pretty great, as others have mentioned. what's
the big deal? if you're not getting anything out of this scene, just move onto
other kinds of music that are pushing the envelope, including other strains of
improv. there are plenty out there, believe me.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 98 13:24:43 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[4]: Free Jazz

Patrice wrote:

>I was not going so far. I believe improvisation as being one the many tools
>a composer can use to write great music. Based on the talent and
>imagination of the artist, it can lead to the best or to the worst
>(although for some die-hard anything out of improv cannot be bad...).

     Thanks for clearing that up and sorry for my incomplete understanding.
     You're clearly correct above. I imagine what sometimes riles you (and
     I) and kind of what started this thread, as I recall, is when someone
     using a fixed rating system gives the highest possible ranking to a,
     let's say, decent enough but unspectacular (IMHO) release like Ware's
     'Godspelized', implying that it's the equal of anything ever done in
     the genre. It makes you wonder about the critical judgment being
     exercised.

     I meant to mention in my last post something that bears on the
     discussion here and, surprisingly, I haven't seen brought up yet:
     Bailey's remarkable 'Invisible Jukebox' session in the current WIRE.
     What a refreshing difference between his catankerous, intelligent and
     outrageous observations and those of the usual tranceheads! His
     comments about recordings and the quixotic idea of perhaps only
     listening to a record _once_ are wonderful and bracingly extreme.

     Brian Olewnick



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:47:33 -0500 (EST)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)

Steve Smith wrote:
> Yes, perhaps, but there's nothing really wrong with the paradigm of young and
> impressionable listeners taking hints from those artists they've come to most
> admire (read: trust).  It's probably the most common way that anyone comes to jazz
> unless blessed with a jazz loving parent or parents who played it in the house,
> I'd guess.
>
I agree with this completely, and I appreciate these efforts because it
has brought a lot more live music to my town and more awareness for this
music in general. I suppose its frustrating to see the same people, the
AUM Fidelity crowd (who I do like but just not THAT much) get the
attention over and over, in comparison to, for example, the names Jon
Abbey mentioned.  And then hearing people thinking its new, when they
haven't even listened to or heard of Cecil Taylor is strange to say the
least.

I wonder if these AUM guys realize how fickle most of the indie-rock
crowd is though (how many people in this age groupwere listening to John
Fahey or Kraftwerk five years ago?) - I don't know how long this little
resurgence will last but I'm thinking its at a peak right about now.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:19:16 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Free Jazz (semi-longish)

> I mean, given how badly arts education SUCKS in American public schools (and I am
> tightly focused on the USA, Patrice, so your mileage may vary), I'm amazed that
> any young American comes to any music more esoteric than Sonic Youth and Black
> Flag (I'm surely showing my age with that statement).  So if Henry or Thurston
> lead someone to check out Charles Gayle or Matt Shipp or Sun Ra or whoever,
> they've done more for expanding that kid's mind than his/her education did.

I agree completely! I'm 17 and am a high school senior. I've *always* had an intense
fascination with music but my interest in anything I listen to now never would have
come about if I had stayed at a public school. I moved to a private for high school
and the strong jazz program there exposed me in some great stuff like Mingus and
Coltrane which I led further and further into more free/avant/20th century/ethno....
I had no idea that jazz was anything worthwhile. I didn't avoid it, I just don't think
I knew it really existed. Something needs to provide that spark and if Henry Rollins
or Thurston Moore can, then that's wonderful! Of course being all arty and avant-garde
is cool among my generation so you have to question one's intent.

And of course we can still make fun of them!

                                        -Tom Pratt


- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #556
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