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Zorn List Digest       Friday, December 4 1998       Volume 02 : Number 545



In this issue:
-
       Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
       Re: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
       Re: Zorn becoming ...?
       Re:  Re: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
       RE: Amazon.com's 100 best list
       Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
       RE: Amazon.com's 100 best list
       Large vs. small stores
       Re: William Parker advice?
       Audience for classical/chamber music (Mr. Drury's question) - long
       Re: William Parker advice?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:28:59 -0500
From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list

MANG! Christian Heslop wrote:
>Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon in their areas? What is it
>that is causing big business to market to small niches?
As much as I hate pat answers, maybe they've noticed that the amount of
money that actually goes into all of those small niches isn't quite as
small as they would have figured. If you put enough of the little stores
out of business by offering the same stock at better prices, even the indie
fiends are going to have a hard time justifying not buying from you.
Personally, I'm not all that fussy about who I buy my music from, as long
as I'm able to find the titles that I want.
  Besides, just imagine what you might find in the bargain bins if/when
large chain record stores start catering to the broadest customer bases
possible!

- -me


- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 21:54:13 -0800
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list

Out here, Waldenbooks is definitely not better. It's rarely found outside
of malls, and even then its stock is narrow and specific. B&N seems to go
much further out on a limb when it comes to buying. It's like they have
some sort of bona-fide bibliophile at the helm (albeit on a leash). In any
case, Borders is better (again, regional variation applies). I couldn't
believe the amount of university press published books that they carried,
not to mention a philosophy section that I never believed could occur in
any bookstore that wanted to make money. As I mentioned before, they are
the best local source of music.

- ----------
> From: [e-mail]
> To: [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Subject: Re:  Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
> Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 8:43 PM
>
>
> In a message dated 12/3/98 23:37:21, you wrote:
>
> >Waldenbooks is starting to imitate the much more succesful
> >
> >Barnes and Noble
>
> if memory serves (being a former of the big ugly b+n) b+n and waldenbooks
are
> kinda one and the same. discounts apply, etc. so it makes sense that b
dalton
> is slowly going the way of the betamax (better, but nobody's buying).

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:56:44 -0500
From: Caliban <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Zorn becoming ...?

stephen drury wrote:

> I noticed, in spite of a lot of references to "classical" composers, little
> or no reference in this discussion to Zorn's "classical" (i.e., fully
> notated for conventional accoustic instruments) work.

On the whole, I have not found a great deal of his "classical" work particularly
inspired (but that's just my personal opinion). Alot of his recent output seems
mainly to have consisted of early works, recorded for the first time (or
re-released, as the case may be) so it's kind of hard to judge his growth as a
"classical" composer. Of course, I don't really see much point in delineating
his works into different categories. "Jazz", "Classical", "Ambient", etc., don't
really seems to apply to JZ (or most of the composers in the avant-garde around
his age). Some of his works in this idiom have been quite successful- "Elegy"
and "Duras" come to mind- there's a certain passion present there- but it seems
when he tries to hold himself into a particular style- like many of the works on
"Angelus Novus", it all comes out sounding a bit generic. All the conventions of
"modern music" are there but I don't hear any soul in it, like I do in the
aforementioned pieces, or Masada, or any number of his other projects. The piece
for winds on "AN", in particular, sounds like a music school composition
assignment. It's an early work, I know, but perhaps it didn't need to come out
of the shoebox full of old scores on the floor in the closet and be recorded. As
far as "Aporias" goes... I liked it. It didn't blow me away but there are
certainly segments that stand out- like the hand clap sequence. Which reminds
me, I must ask: Is that section a veiled reference (or at least tip of the hat
to) Miles' "On the Corner"?

> The audiences I played for recently in Europe with Zorn's ensemble were
> astonishing in the close attention and interest and patience they showed in
> an incredibly wide range of musical styles and content

Many friends of mine who have played in Europe- whether they played rock, jazz,
techno, metal, whatever- have said the same thing. People in Europe are far more
open to music outside of the mainstream. In the US, it seems sometimes like you
can't get a gig unless you get on MTV first. And if you do score a gig nobody
shows up 'cause nobody's ever heard of you 'cause you're not on MTV. Granted, in
the larger cities it's a little easier but here in East Inbred, Connecticut,
gigs are pretty sparse for fringe music. I think it may be more of a reflection
on Americans than Europeans, honestly. I tend to think that people are naturally
curious, but here in the US we tend to be overstuffed and overstimulated with
and by massive quantities of mindless entertainment. Not that I'm complaining- I
love mindless entertainment as much as the next guy. But I can see how people
would lose interest in music, art, film, etc. after awhile. There's just so much
of it thrown at you at all times from all directions. You know, I don't listen
to the radio, I don't watch MTV, but I can sing you the melody of every song on
Billboard's Top 40. How the hell did I get all those songs stuck in my head? I
have no fucking idea. I'm sure no one on this list listens to the sort of radio
station that would play Whitney Houston's "I Will Always Love You"- but I bet
you all know it by heart. (If you don't, you have my envy. Or you live on the
Moon.)
So, I guess after all that long-winded claptrap my point is that in this country
we're simply so inundated with entertainment that after awhile, most people are
just satisfied with what they're given. I don't know if it's any different in
Europe. I'm just theorizing here.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 00:52:36 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re:  Re: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list

In a message dated 12/4/98 0:50:34, you wrote:

>a philosophy section that I never believed could occur in
>
>any bookstore that wanted to make money.

they can probably afford it thanks to the steady flow of john grisham and
patricia cornwell. sorry. enough bookstore bashing

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 06:03:35 -0600
From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Amazon.com's 100 best list

>     >  Besides, just imagine what you might find in the bargain bins
> if/when
>     > large chain record stores start catering to the broadest customer
> bases
>     > possible!
>     I found Somnific Flux and Final at my local Tower for $2 each.
>
>     This thread brings up something that I have wondered about.
>     Usually when I purchase, I purposefully steer clear of such
> mainstream
>     megastores and try to purchase from smaller places that cater to my
>     musical tastes. The few times that I haved purchased stuff from big
>     chain stores, I feel kind of guilty. Do they really need my
> business?
>     What with thousands of copies of the lastest Marilyn Manson release
>     flying of their shelves, I would think not. I find i strange that
> somebody
>     mentioned they aren't too particular about where they buy stuff.
>     How do other people feel about this?
>
>
>     -

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 09:51:36 -0300
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list

Marks, Andy wrote:
>
> >just imagine what you might find in the bargain bins
> > if/when large chain record stores start catering to the broadest customer
> > bases

>  I find i strange that somebody
>   mentioned they aren't too particular about where they buy stuff.
> How do other people feel about this?

Bad.
If you're not particular about where you buy stuff, eventually you'll
have no "control" over what you have access to, because the chains
certainly do not care about "YOU". Around here, every street corner
begins to look the same. Either a BP or Country Fair/Citgo katty-korner
from either a Revco or Eckerd Drug store. All Big. All giving you a
senseless choice of three-hundred kinds of toothpaste and lots of
sodapop. I steer towards the few remaining corner stores and privately
owned gas stations. The people there (remember "people"?) know my name,
know what I want, and actually become pals after awhile. I don't want to
trade community for CHEAP, because CHEAP gets me music stores where none
of the kids working there have any idea who Oliver Nelson is, let alone
Marilyn Crispell. Also, the trend of finding more important material in
large chains is generally a limited deal. The Media Play stores are
notorious for going in stocked to the gills with cool quality jazz, but
none of these titles get re-ordered. They get you in there with them
low-low prices, but they don't actually CARE if the music is available
to us or not. Also, the chains generally make every effort to put the
small independents in a given area out of business, as seen in the means
used by Starbucks to kill small indy coffee shops. Lease a prime
store-front down the block for x times the value until the indy closes
its doors. Anyway. This is all a political question, isn't it? Wal-Mart
kills local economies. If I shop local (or independent) he money stays
in the local economy, rather than flying willy-nilly into the corporate
coffers of some fatqat a thousand miles away. WalMart are heavy-handed
censors where books and music are concerned. But hey, they're cheaper...

I'll hunt down the knowledgable individual at the local record shop or
bookstore. I don't eat at mc'Donald's either.

I also will grant, without editing this since I'm late for work, that it
rambles, is pissy and obviously written by someone who detests
"franchises" of all shapes and colors.

HA!
RL
- --
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 08:03:07 -0600
From: "Marks, Andy" <[e-mail]>
Subject: RE: Amazon.com's 100 best list

    > its doors. Anyway. This is all a political question, isn't it?
Wal-Mart
    > kills local economies. If I shop local (or independent) he money
stays
    > in the local economy, rather than flying willy-nilly into the
corporate
    > coffers of some fatqat a thousand miles away. WalMart are
heavy-handed
    > censors where books and music are concerned. But hey, they're
cheaper...
    What about purchasing stuff over the internet? Almost all of my
purchases
    now come from an online place specializing in what i like. A
speciality store
    near me just recently closed and it got me thinking. I used to go
there once
    a week to check out new releases, etc. They always had
Zorn/experimental stuff.
    It was the only place I would buy from locally. But after getting
more and more into
    the internet and joining this list, I began to frequent there less
an less. And I began
    to find better prices on the internet. This local place would charge
$16-18  for your
    average Tzadik release. I paid these prices for a while, but once I
found out that I could
    get them online for around $13, I stopped buying stuff there as
much. Before they closed
    I would visit them 1 a month if I was lucky. I could just get stuff
cheaper and faster off of
    the internet.

    I'm not trying to argue one way or another here. This is just stuff
that I've been
    thinking about (Never been much good at debating).
    I'd like to here what other have to say about this.


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 06:31:22 -0800
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Large vs. small stores

If a local store fails to carry what I am interested in, I will not shop
there. If a large store does carry what I want, I will buy it there. I live
in Monterey California, where concern for locally owned and operated
businesses is very high. The guy who works at the corner record store knows
"who" some of the artists I'm interested in are, but his store doesn't
carry their work. I also don't seem to be able to order it from them. Bay
Books on Alvarado St. has an embarassingly small and putrid stock of books.
The Borders in the neighbouring town has much more of interest than the
local book shops. It seems to me that some of the smaller operations have
abandoned smaller interest groups because of the necessities of competing
with giants. While the giants have picked up wandering markets. When I
bought Spillane from that Borders there was maybeone other CD of his there.
The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled. I
have also been able to buy professional level history and linguistics books
from Borders. They are also the only bookstore that I have been in that
carries untranslated literature. I actually found myself in the ridiculous
situation of criticizing them because they didn't carry Korean or Chinese
lit. Whereas before I wouldn't have been able to find anything in German
either. I made the remark in a private e-mail that many of these large
chain book and record stores are using the income from larger volume
"stuff" to allow them to carry things that appeal to a smaller, more
discriminating audience. That is something that I admire. I am not sure how
Wal-Mart found its way into this thread. I never mantioned it. We don't
have one in Monterey.
    By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver
Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a record
store?


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:03:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Brent Burton <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: William Parker advice?

On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Todd Bramy wrote:

> I just got the William Parker/In Order To Survive double disc called "The
> Peach Orchard" and just love it. Could someone tell me where I might go
> next to find the definitive Parker?

parker is ubiquitous.  you've probably got a pretty solid representation
right there.  susie ibarra is insane.  i just picked up parker's first
record as a leader, "through acceptance of the mystery peace," and it's
good, but i like his more recent work better.

b

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:53:21 -0500 (EST)
From: William York <[e-mail]>
Subject: Audience for classical/chamber music (Mr. Drury's question) - long

> As one of the fairly young subscribers who came to Zorn via the rock
> side of his work, that sounds about right -- or about half right. The
> other problem I have w/ Zorn's more "classical" works is that there's
> a big hole in my knowledge of classical music beginning c. 1900, (one
> of the few things I'm grateful to my father for is playing Mozart,
> Wagner, Tchaikovsky, &c. when I was growing up, even if I cd.n't
> appreciate it then) so I'm pretty much ignorant of the tradition these
> pieces are coming out of (I'm slowly working @ remedying this), and I
> don't really have any context to approach them thru, if that makes sense.

Agreed, again, but from my somewhat limited experience there is some stuff
(Boulez and Webern, for example) that I'm just not into.  I have an album
of Webern that I've listened to over and over (orig. 'recommended' by
Zappa) and I've never gotten into it. I've tried and tried, but it just
doesn't do it.

On the other hand, Ives, Stravinsky, Bartok and then more recent
electroacoustic and more tonal leaning stuff I often enjoy.  But I should
add that the only time I've ever seen any such thing live (Ives' "The
Unanswered Question") I enjoyed it about 5 times more than on record.
Even the audience, 90% of whom were there to dress up or maybe hear "Stars
and Stripes Forever" seemed to get something out of it too. Its just a
matter of getting people to show up and be somewhat willing to listen.

As for Zorn, I bought the Big Gundown 2 yrs ago expecting to hear what is
basically the sound of the first Lounge Lizards album (I hadn't heard
either), some sort of punk jazz or whatever.  So I was surprised.  I
actually didn't like metal, at all really, until the Naked City suff. Or
noise.  Actually it was the quick movement stuff that I think I liked the
most about it.

To answer Mr. Drury's question, as someone younger (college age), I'm much
more likely to find myself listening to jazz or rock performance based
stuff, although this often includes music influnced by other music I do
not like (for example, I like Derek Bailey which is influenced by Webern
and Stokhausen who I'm not so big on, Cecil Taylor being influenced by
Schoenberg, some of Frank Zappa's stuff (Weasels, Burnt Weeny Sandwich),
and so on.  So maybe it is the way it is played - the instruments, the
'energy level' (sorry) - that has to do with wanting to listen to these
things.

One more thing is the volume level - listening to classical orchestra
music on a stereo at home is difficult (when there are fluctuations in
volume, really quiet parts and so on) when coming from a rock or even jazz
bkgd.  BUT, if there were to be a live performance in my area, I would
definately be there, and there would be others there as well, who
I'm sure would listen as respectfully.  The difference between here
(North Carolina) and
Europe, possibly, is that
there isn't a large enough audience anywhere outside of big cities for
such programs as the recent Zorn chamber music tour to pay the bills.

My apologies for any generalities, oversimplifications, errors, etc. and
for the record I the the performances themselves on the recent classical
CDs are great, and I consider them all worth listening to even if I don't
like them, but in the end its often the art work  I like the most.    But
I'm trying..

WY


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:14:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: William Parker advice?

Parker is "definitive" all over place and is a veritable "outside" Ron
Carter. Find a "free jazz" session recorded in the past 20 years and he's
likely to be on it.

A few recommendations:

Other Dimensions in Music "Now"(Aum Fidelity) --in quartet
w/ Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra "Flowers Grow In my Room" (Centering)
ditto "Sunrise In The Tone World" (Aum Fidelity)  -both "out" big band
Roy Campbell Pyramid Trio "Ancestral Homeland" (No More) trumpet, bass
ands percussion
Dorgon & William Parker "9" (Jumbo) -- C-melody(!) sax and bass

He also has done excellent sideman work with Ivo Perleman, Frank Lowe,
Cecil Taylor, Matt Shipp, David S. Ware etc. etc.





On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, Todd Bramy wrote:

> I just got the William Parker/In Order To Survive double disc called "The
> Peach Orchard" and just love it. Could someone tell me where I might go
> next to find the definitive Parker?
>
> Thanks-
> Todd
>
>
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #545
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