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Zorn List Digest       Friday, December 4 1998       Volume 02 : Number 546



In this issue:
-
       Re: Large vs. small stores
       Changed my mind
       Changed my mind
       Re: Large vs. small stores
       Re: Large vs. small stores
       Re: Wm. Parker
       Re: Large vs. small stores
       Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list
       Z'EV
       Small Stores, Big Stores, and Bootlegs
       Re: Large vs. small stores

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:36:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Christian Heslop wrote:


 While the giants have picked up wandering markets. When I
> bought Spillane from that Borders there was maybeone other CD of his there.
> The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled.

So using straight math they then had *two* Zorn discs, or is that four?



>     By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver
> Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a record
> store?
>

Au contraire, it's probably the best recommendation you can have for
working there.

Seriously, I buy my CDs at *anywhere* that has the best prices and the
best selection of what I want, be it mail order, *small* store or chain
store. I found some deleted Ed Blackwell in the Tower bargain bin in New
Orleans, bought Cecil Taylor's "Always A Pleasure" for 1/3 the chain
store sticker price from mail order house Verge in Peterborough, Ontario.
and always make a point of picking up discs they're selling when I see an
artist live. (Fred Anderson could have moved a multitiude of CDs in
Toornto last weekend if he had brought any along).

Mass merchandising usually leads to bland sameness, unless a knowledgeable
buyer slips through the web of monopoly capitalism.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:59:16 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Changed my mind

After spitting out a list of classical composers as examples of composers who
have done (at least some of ) their greatest work late in life as an argument
countering Brian Olewnick's assertion that innovative musicians (and
innovators in other disciplines) amost always do their most innovative work
relatively early in life, I've come to realize that in fact most of those
composers did come up with their major innovations earlier in life, ultimately
developing and refining them to create their greatest works late in life.
Beethoven might be the only one of those whose innovations continued to
explode throughout his life, and if you have to resort to Beethoven to make a
point, then that get's to be more of a situation of an exception proving the
rule, since very few musicians of any era can come close to measuring up to a
Beethoven (IMO IMO IMO! before we get back into that "Coltrane [Zorn Tristano
Whomever] blows Beethoven away!!!" type of thread).

I still find it interesting that in our era, the works of an artist's youth
(whether Lennon/McCartney, Buddy DeFranco, Monk, Diz, Blakey, Miles, Shorter,
Joe Henderson) is so often either superior to, or perceived as superior to,
what they do later in life, which is generally the opposite of the traditional
"classical" world.

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:59:28 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Changed my mind

After spitting out a list of classical composers as examples of composers who
have done (at least some of ) their greatest work late in life as an argument
countering Brian Olewnick's assertion that innovative musicians (and
innovators in other disciplines) amost always do their most innovative work
relatively early in life, I've come to realize that in fact most of those
composers did come up with their major innovations earlier in life, ultimately
developing and refining them to create their greatest works late in life.
Beethoven might be the only one of those whose innovations continued to
explode throughout his life, and if you have to resort to Beethoven to make a
point, then that get's to be more of a situation of an exception proving the
rule, since very few musicians of any era can come close to measuring up to a
Beethoven (IMO IMO IMO! before we get back into that "Coltrane [Zorn Tristano
Whomever] blows Beethoven away!!!" type of thread).

I still find it interesting that in our era, the works of an artist's youth
(whether Lennon/McCartney, Buddy DeFranco, Monk, Diz, Blakey, Miles, Shorter,
Joe Henderson) is so often either superior to, or perceived as superior to,
what they do later in life, which is generally the opposite of the traditional
"classical" world.

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:38:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores

- ---Christian Heslop <[e-mail]> wrote:
> I made the remark in a private e-mail that many of these large
> chain book and record stores are using the income from larger volume
> "stuff" to allow them to carry things that appeal to a smaller, more
> discriminating audience. That is something that I admire.
I don't know if I "admire" it -- I mean, I don't think there's any
altruism behind it, it's still just another way for a bunch of suits
to make $$$ -- but I'm certainly going to take advantage of it just
b/c it's more convenient than like Amazon.com.
==
Eric Martens

"When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to
take your word on that." -- Liz Phair



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 12:49:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph S. Zitt" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores

On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Christian Heslop wrote:

> When I
> bought Spillane from that Borders there was maybeone other CD of his there.
> The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled.

So they now had *two* Zorn CDs? Wow. :-)

I find that I get most of my magazines at Borders, and most of my books
either there or at Amazon. While DC has a lot of indie bookstores, I
rarely find what I'm looking for in them. And the DC CD scene sux. (With
the possible exception of DCCD, which has a good and remarkably
inexpensive selection of local, often fringy CDs (made inexpensive by
cutting their margins very slim on them, probably as an
audience-attractor: for the CDs that we have in their on consignment,
they've taken them at the same price as other stores, but are selling them
for less than most).)

I get a lot of CDs through people selling them via mailing lists, most
often through postings here. I also recently ordered the Braxton Willisau
over the Net from North Country, and followed a post here yesterday to
TotalE, at which I used the online coupon to get CDs by Joelle Leandre and
William Parker.

I try to restrict my CD binging to stores in NYC when I get up there,
getting my stuff mostly at DMG and Other Music. And, as many on this list
know, DMG is the epitome of the small, informed CD shop: Bruce et al
actively research, promote, and publicize what they carry. Several times
recently, when friends have asked me for music recommendations, I've
pointed them there, since they'll be able to turn people on to the right
stuff. I also mail order a lot of stuff from them, and am drooling in
anticipation of their Web site.

I do buy a significant chunk of books at Borders, come to think of it, but
i consider it worth it: the combination of the coffee bar and the good
selection makes it an excellent reference library, so I actually use more
of their books than I buy, so I don't mind *too* much making a purchase
there every so often...

- - ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1----------
|||/ Joseph Zitt ===== [e-mail] ===== Human Systems \|||
||/ Maryland? = <*> SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List <*> = ecto \||
|/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt ====== Comma: Voices of New Music \|


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 13:52:02 -0500
From: Dan Given <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Wm. Parker

>Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:14:47 -0500 (EST)
>From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: William Parker advice?
>A few recommendations:
>
>Other Dimensions in Music "Now"(Aum Fidelity) --in quartet
>w/ Little Huey Creative Music Orchestra "Flowers Grow In my Room" (Centering)
>ditto "Sunrise In The Tone World" (Aum Fidelity)  -both "out" big band
>Roy Campbell Pyramid Trio "Ancestral Homeland" (No More) trumpet, bass
>ands percussion
>Dorgon & William Parker "9" (Jumbo) -- C-melody(!) sax and bass
>
>He also has done excellent sideman work with Ivo Perleman, Frank Lowe,
>Cecil Taylor, Matt Shipp, David S. Ware etc. etc.
>

For some reason, no one has recommended my favorite places to hear Parker
(outside of his own bands), which are:

Brotzmann -Die Like a Dog, and the followup, Little Birds Have Fast Hearts

Gayle- Touchin' On Trane, and any of the quartet albums with 2 basses
(Consecration, Raining Fire, More Live At K.F, a couple of others)

Also, I would recommend the solo disc Testimony.  This is one of the best
solo bass albums I've heard.  Unlike others who do solo bass, Parker
doesn't really play songs, he plays music, or more accurately, sound which
he leaves up to the listener to interpret as music.  Not easy listening,
not even as accessible as the most out Little Huey stuff (Flowers Grow in
My Room is my choice of the two), but great.




- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:34:48 -0800
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores

> > The following month when I returned, their stock of Zorn had doubled.
You said:
> So using straight math they then had *two* Zorn discs, or is that four?

    Ouch! It was four. Yes you are right. I do have such problems with simple
arithmetic. I really appreciate you clearing up my vague thoughts, as well
as your generous act of sending that same clarification to everyone so that
they too are relieved the mental pressure of sorting through my many
terrible mistakes. When I said "stock" I thought that I was referring to
*that which they usually carry*. I thought that was what "stock" meant.


> >     By the way, I have never heard of either Marilyn Crispell or Oliver
> > Nelson. Does that disqualify me from working for minimum wage at a
record
> > store?
> >
You replied:
> Au contraire, it's probably the best recommendation you can have for
> working there.

    Well. You could have just told me who they were. I certainly didn't say
that I wasn't interested. I don't work at a record store. My area of
knowledge is quite distant from the realm of music. I am simply a music
lover who is attempting to learn as much as I can. It is my failing that I
never seem to know anything about musicians until I am first exposed to
them. It is good to know that there are people like you out there who can
help me with my handicaps.

You said:
> Mass merchandising usually leads to bland sameness, unless a
knowledgeable
> buyer slips through the web of monopoly capitalism.

    Yes. *Usually*. That is exactly the point that I thought I was making. If
I remember correctly, I expressed surprise at a phenomenon that appeared to
me to be occuring. I questioned the rest of the group as to whether or not
they agreed. I think I already suggested that it was probably the work of a
sympathetic buyer. I do not represent any of the businesses in question. I
do not work in retail. I was suggesting that it wasn't entirely fair to
expect teenagers employed at minimum wage to be amateur musicologists. Did
I piss you off? You seem to have taken a strange tack on a group that is
composed of people with similar tastes.

                            Christian

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 14:58:08 -0500
From: Taylor McLaren <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Amazon.com's 100 best list

GNANG! Rick Lopez wrote:
>Marks, Andy wrote:
>>  I find i strange that somebody
>>   mentioned they aren't too particular about where they buy stuff.
>> How do other people feel about this?
>If you're not particular about where you buy stuff, eventually you'll
>have no "control" over what you have access to, because the chains
>certainly do not care about "YOU".
The *chains* don't, no, but the people who work at the chains are just as
human as the folks who work at your local indie record stores, too, and
there's no reason why you can't get to know them. No matter how many drug
store/fast food/coffee shop chains you care to mention in taking a stand
against big business, the fact remains that, if a big-ass store can get a
single copy of a Zorn album on the racks, they have the distribution
contacts to get more if you let them know that those copies will sell.
  Personally, I don't give a flying fuck about whether or not titles are
restocked after I buy them; if I was able to buy a copy of a non-limited
release and manage to turn somebody on to that particular artist or album
after the fact, that person can go ahead and find a copy however they
want... maybe even by asking somebody at the big, scary store where I
bought my copy to order another one for them. Regardless of what the store
is, if they don't have what I want when I want it, then my options are
either to special-order it or to go somewhere else. If I'm not in a hurry
to hear something, and the somewhere else in question is going to charge me
an extra three or four bucks for the sake of being tiny, I might just wait
and let the big-ass store throw their weight around for me.
  Also personally, I do almost all of my shopping by mail order or in a
handful of tiny, independent stores around Toronto. In general, I've found
that the people working for these businesses are more willing to figure out
what I like, are more capable of making recommendations when I'm in the
mood to try something new, and I generally get along with them better than
I do with the generalists who work in big-ass stores. In the event that a
much larger corporate entity was able to offer the same selection that I
currently get from Penguin or Soleilmoon or Scratch, however, and save me
more than a couple of bucks on every purchase, then I'd shop at the big-ass
corporate store.

>This is all a political question, isn't it? Wal-Mart kills local economies.
Maybe not. While the profits that you envision being whisked away to a
faraway land might very well end up buying an executive in another country
a really nice house, the local Wal-Mart also employs a whole whack of
people. If B&N and other chains genuinely expand to the point where they
start to threaten niche markets as a category, then they're also going to
need to hire almost as many people as those niche stores used to employ
just to keep their shelves stocked and their sales staff from being run
ragged. Besides, if a big-box store genuinely strip-mines a local economy
to the point where every other person is out of work, that very same store
suffers just as much as everybody else from reduced spending.
  ...all of which makes me wonder why the big chains are in such a hurry to
become department stores, given how poorly most of the department stores
that were a big deal fifty years ago have fared during the last decade or so.

>I'll hunt down the knowledgable individual at the local record shop or
>bookstore. I don't eat at mc'Donald's either.
Congratulations. Neither do I, but that's more for health reasons (and a
general distaste for the smell of McGrease) than because of a knee-jerk
hatred of businesses based on size. Zorn did okay by Elektra, didn't he?

- -me


- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:09:39 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Z'EV

I'm not completely sure, but hasn't Z'EV had a history with the famous
industrial band, Psychic TV?

- - matt

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:31:14 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Small Stores, Big Stores, and Bootlegs

I grew up in a family who owns multiple independent businesses that circulate
around our local area. From this experience I naturally think independent
before I think corporate. In fact when I was younger (around 14-18) the word
corporate seemed like it came from the devil. I have to say that I definitely
agree on the argument that states the huge amount of caring, friendliness,
knowledgeable, homelike, and other highly valuable qualities that spur from
the local independant stores around my hometown (Bucks County, PA). I will
admit to buying from Tower Records and Borders every now and then, but who
cares? Anyway, my reason for speaking up refers to the bootleg sales in these
independent record stores. The fact that you can go into a public store and
purchase illegal and very hard to find items is, IMHO, fantastic. I do not
know how you people feel about the issue. The hard to find items are always a
pleasure to anyone but the bootleg tapes, records, videos, CDs, ect. raises a
big debate amongst music lovers between those who say that the stores who
carry them are ripping off the artists and causing them a lot of money; that
these stores should be shut down or simply not carry these illegal items
anymore, or the greedy people who collect this stuff (like myself) and feel
that these stores are essential to our musical lifestyles. Let me add that a
big record convention just passed through PA that emphasized on rare and
bootlegged merchandise and the sellers whom I spoke with at the tables where
making a mint off bootlegs, they sold copied videos of handheld recorded
concerts for $25 - $35, recorded audio concert tapes sold for $5 - $10 each.
These people are independent alright, but they sometimes get looked at as
crack dealers by a few people. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

- -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 15:49:35 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: Large vs. small stores

  i feel a little bad that i started this big debate. the fact is that i work
for borders and have for the past five years. i was just trying to point out
that the last time i visited the web site there where around 60 titles listed
to match "zorn." that said, the conversation has been interesting and maybe i
should clarify a few things.
  what each store caries does vary depending on the market and the general
buying trends of the public at that store. at my store we have 30 titles by
zorn we regularly stock. when i checked we had sold at least one of each
during the past year. not big money, but it does tell us that we should be
carrying them because there is a local interest.
  as far as "big vs. small," it's like everything else, individual. i watched
my dad loose his business as wal-mart took over small towns through practices
that are quite frankly just plain illegal and immoral (remember kathy lee?).
as for borders i hope that you notice that they support the community they are
a part of, and if they don't then someone isn't doing there job. being part of
the community means everything from carring local product, hanging posters for
local shows, having local author signings that quite frankly don't make any
money, to good old finnacial support for art's and  community foundations.
hopefully all these reasons are why the company is succesful.
  i'm not a corporate lacky, but i do believe in what i do professionally.
- -cbw

- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #546
*******************************


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