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Zorn List Digest      Wednesday, December 2 1998      Volume 02 : Number 542



In this issue:
-
       Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
       Re: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism
       Re: Has John Zorn became dull/age
       Re: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism
       Re[2]: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism
       Re: Has John Zorn became dull?
       Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
       Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne
       Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
       Age and innovation
       Melody Unasked For (fwd)
       Per Henrik Wallin (was Re: Melody Unasked For (fwd))
       Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)
       recent goodies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:13:28 -0500
From: Rich Williams <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)

William York wrote:

> Also, if anyone could tell me something about the Ganelin Trio (Russian
> jazz group) that would be helpful - like about their recordings.  i've
> read about them and while their is no downtown connection it seems like
> they might bear some resemblence to other people talked about here.  The
> Penguin guide is more confusing than anything else to say, so I'm fuzzy as
> to what Kind of resemblence, but it seems interesting.  Reply off the
> list if you want,


    I'll leave it to someone else with a better knowledge to describe their
recordings, but I cant let the oppotunity pass to recall the time that
The Ganelin Trio played on  NBC's Today show. All morning they hyped the
appearance of this "Soviet" jazz band(I'm sure they were reading right
from their press kit). When it came time for their segment they launched
into 5 minutes of Free improv that was supposed to be their take on
"Mack The Knife". After they were done, Both Jane Pauley and Bryant
Gumbel were rendered all but speechless.  A true golden moment in
american broadcasting.

RW

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:10:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism

I second the idea that CT's 1990s work is just as good as his work in
preceding decades, if not better. Great art can be created at any age. I
just saw 69-year-old tenor saxophonist give a show in Toronto this weekend
and his idea fund and talent is as impressive it has been any time I've
seen him in Chicago in the past five years and as notable as that
created by any 20 year old or 40 year old.

Some musicians (and artists) reach an early peak and burn out cf Rimbaud and
most rockers. Others crate masterpieces in old age cf Picasso, Skip
James, Louis Armstrong.

Let's appreciate good music no matter the age (race, gender,
height, sexual interests or table manners) of the artist involved.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:14:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Ken Waxman <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull/age

Reality check:

John Zorn is now older than John Coltrane was when he died.

But that doesn't negate my statement in another post about ageism and
appreciation.

Ken Waxman
[e-mail]





On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Caleb T. Deupree wrote:

>
> In classical music, I'm thinking of Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert,
> Wagner, Carter, even Cage (whose late works I'm only beginning to
> appreciate), in addition to many famous conductors and performers who are
> well advanced in years.  But in pop, look at Coltrane's late works for an
> example of transcendance.  Zorn hasn't reached that age bracket yet, but I
> look forward to his output, and hope I'm still around to hear it.
>
>
> --
> Caleb Deupree
> [e-mail]
>
> Computers are useless; they can only give you answers
> -- Pablo Picasso
>
> -
>
>

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 10:18:24 -0800
From: "Patrice L. Roussel" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism

On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:10:01 -0500 (EST)  Ken Waxman wrote:
>
> I second the idea that CT's 1990s work is just as good as his work in
> preceding decades, if not better. Great art can be created at any age. I
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think that we are drifting away from what Brian was saying...

Brian was not talking about the capability of polishing or improving, but
about creating breakthroughs. For example, Taylor/Parker/Bailey/etc were
cutting edge 30 years ago. They might still have problems to pay the bills,
but this has nothing to do with being creative in the sense of producing
new directions (what they did in the '60s without the slightest doubt). And
yes, I love to listen to them, but not for the same reasons that I did 20
years ago. If I want breakthroughs, I looks somewhere else.

Yes, good music can be done at any age. Did anybody claimed the opposite?

    Patrice (who agrees 100% with Brian's comments on age and
        creativity).



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 98 13:22:44 -0500
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re[2]: /Braxton/Cecil an Ageism

     Ken wrote:

>Let's appreciate good music no matter the age (race, gender,
>height, sexual interests or table manners) of the artist
>involved.

     I'll go along with everything except table manners; gotta draw the
     line somewhere.

     Actually, I have fantasized a jazz band where every member was at
     least 6'4". Randy Weston, Julius Hemphill, Han Bennink...

     B.



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:21:47 -0800
From: "Christian Heslop" <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: Has John Zorn became dull?

    I think that the phenomenon that you're describing is one to which pop
musicians are more vulnerable. While it may still happen to artists that
work outside the norm, pop musicians work very much within in their time.
These days pop music targets an audience that is significantly younger th=
an
the musicians themselves. My point is that when people are writing with a
voice that is their own rather than with one that is more representative =
of
Zeitgeist than of creative vision, what happens to them is less a creativ=
e
downturn than it is an inablity to keep up with the trend. Their attempt =
is
to mimic the voice of the time, unlike artists like Zorn who create voice=
s.


- ----------
> From: Anders Fransson <[e-mail]>
> To: [e-mail]
> Subject: Has John Zorn became dull?
> Date: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 2:11 AM
>=20
> During the complete 80=B4s and in the first few years of the 90=B4s, un=
til
> 1993-94, Zorn was the creator of several innovative works. You had ever=
y
> reason for calling him a renewer. If the basis of Zorn is the jazz
> - there can be some objections to that - few people has made such a
> succesful mixture of genres as he has. I can recall just a few names,
> Miles, Sun Ra and Duke Ellington, and they didn=B4t do it to the same
> degree as
> John Zorn. Or rather, Zorn takes an active part in a number of musical
> styles. To be succesful in creating chamber music and trashmetal of the
> utmost quality in the same time is really not grated to everyone.
>=20
> But now for some years, his music seems to be just reiterations of his
> earlier works. If you think of the fact that the creative period of Zor=
n
> has lasted for fifteen years, you must consider that this is longer tha=
n
> most of the so called renewers. It is typical of the renewers to
> introduce a new idea and then repeat it over and over again for the res=
t
> of their lives. What once was avant-garde finally becomes nothing but a
> tiring grimace.
> The artist is assimilated in the establishiment and wins prices... Is
> this what is going to happen to Zorn?
>=20
> It=B4s interesting to follow the letters to the Zorn-list. I joined the
> list about two years ago. In those days more then half of the letters
> concerned John Zorn. Today has, at the most, a third of the letters
> anything to do with Zorn. Some news on the list are those comments on
> what Zorn was dressed like, his hair style etc., in his concerts. Has a
> serious debate ended up with idol worship?
>=20
> I certainly still keep up to date with what Zorn is doing, but it was a
> long time ago since I bought one of his records. The reason for that is
> to some extent the increased speed of the production. The quality is
> certainly still high, but it is reiterations!!! And isn=B4t Masada an
> increadebly overestimated group?
>=20
>=20
> Anders
>=20
>=20
> --
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
___


>=20
> Anders Fransson, Biblioteket, Hogskolan i Orebro,
> 701 82  Orebro, Sweden.
> e-mail: [e-mail]
> Phone [phone]
> Fax [phone]
>
_________________________________________________________________________=
___


>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:37:09 -0600
From: [e-mail] (landon thorpe)
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne

>followup (I don't count _The Black Rider_) in six years. Captain Beefheart was
>making some of his most interesting music when he quit music for painting in
>the early eighties.

Speaking of Beefheart, can anyone recommend the next best thing to listen
to after Trout Mask Replica? Also, I believe that Steve Smith mentioned a
few months ago that Revenant was thinking about releasing the "original"
version of TMR, entitled simply Trout Mask. Is this out yet? Has any other
CB material been released by Revenant?

Thanks,

Landon Thorpe



- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:43:08 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: /Braxton/Cecil/Chadbourne

In a message dated 12/2/98 2:34:29 PM, [e-mail] wrote:

<<Speaking of Beefheart, can anyone recommend the next best thing to listen
to after Trout Mask Replica? Also, I believe that Steve Smith mentioned a
few months ago that Revenant was thinking about releasing the "original"
version of TMR, entitled simply Trout Mask. Is this out yet? Has any other
CB material been released by Revenant?
>>

I think Shiny Beast (Bat Chain Puller) is his masterpiece. hopefully the Zappa
estate will get their act together at some point and release the original
version of this, which they have the rights to.

the Revenant 4 (5?) CD box is currently scheduled for March. details and track
listings can be found at the superb Beefheart site located at
www.beefheart.com, in addition to many unreleased songs, which you can
download and burn onto CDs yourself, if you are so inclined. the box includes
the original Trout Mask. it's not a "greatest hits" box at all, but previously
unreleased (except on bootlegs) material.

Jon

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:08:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Eric Martens <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)

- ---William York <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> > - -- whereas Naked City, for example, was more about existential
issues,
> > for the want of a less inadequate term -- and even the one even
> > vaguely "political" (in a broad sense of the term) Naked City
record,
> > Radio (if I'm interpreting the bondage photo in the cover right),
was
> > still basically music-related, while Masada is about things like
> > martyrdom and genocide and cultural memory, and if Zorn wants to
[cut]
>
> Could you explain more about this interpretation of the Radio cover
b/c I
> asked about this a week or so ago and I still don't see much of a
> connection with the music.
>
Basically, it has to do w/ the state of the music industry @ present
(for which radio is used as a synechdoche), and the rigid distinctions
between various genres of music (Top 40, Modern Rock, Classic Rock,
Country, Jazz, HipHop, whatever) -- exemplified by the fairly unified
(generically) compositions that make up most of the first half or so
of the record -- and the way that such a classification system traps
music-consumers in a weird S/M-y kind of rel'ship w/ the
corporate-music-machine, where they "like" whatever kind of music b/c
they've been told that this is what kind of music they like (I have 2
teenage sisters, so I can observe this firsthand), @ the expense of
other kinds of music they might actually like if they were to give it
a chance, which they can't do b/c they might miss some "great" "new"
thing in there own genre. (Admittedly that's a bit reductionistic)
Hence the tied hands and the sensory-dep. mask of the figure on the
cover. Or @ least that's the way I've rationalized that picture's
being on the cover.
==
Eric Martens

"When you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to
take your word on that." -- Liz Phair



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:06:13 EST
From: [e-mail]
Subject: Age and innovation

In a message dated 98-12-02 11:32:40 EST, you write:
>By the way, though I take your point on some of the composers you cited,
>wasn't Mozart only 37 when he died?

Nope, even younger (35 or 36), and Schubert even younger (31 or so) and
Mendelsson (was he in the original poster's list?) didn't make it to 40
either. Still, I think that when you look at classical music, the majority of
great composers did their greatest work later in life. Off the top of my head,
and trying to do it alphabetically, Bach, Bartok, Beethoven, Berg, Brahms,
Britten, Bruckner, Faure, Honegger, Janacek, Mahler, Shostakovich, Verdi, and
Wagner wrote what at least I'd view as some of their greatest works near the
end of at least middle-aged (50s) to very old lives. In the classical world of
days gone by, it seems that composers who did not get better with [old] age
are viewed as those that burned out or otherwise peaked early/prematurely,
whereas in our century, it is more expected that the "earlier" works of
musicians will be more vital or innovative or important, and I agree that they
often are.

It is interesting as a sociological as well as creativity-oriented question.

Dave Royko

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:42:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Caulfield Bivins <[e-mail]>
Subject: Melody Unasked For (fwd)

Fellow listers,

Apologies for the self-promotional spam, but if anyone's near their
computer this Sunday evening, I'm playing a solo guitar set that'll be
streamed live. See below for details.

Thanks,

Jason Bivins


- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 11:25:54 -0500 (EST)
From: "Shane D. Graham" <[e-mail]>
To: October <[e-mail]>, [e-mail]
Subject: Melody Unasked For


MELODY UNASKED FOR
Sunday, 10pm-Midnight EST
WFHB * 91.3 FM & 98.1 FM
Bloomington, Indiana
Live streaming Real Audio at: www.wfhb.org

Tune in next Sunday at 10:15 pm for a live solo guitar performance by
Jason Bivins.


PLAYLIST FOR NOVEMBER 29:

Artist, Album. Track. (Label)
- -----------------------------
Rova, The Crowd. Terrains. (hatArt)
Jason Bivins, Lost Deeds. King of Prussia. (bivtone)
Greg Kelly/Tatsuya Nakatani/Bhob Rainey, nmperign. iii. (Twisted Village)
Trans Am, The Surveillance. The Campaign/Access Control. (Thrill Jockey)
Ensemble Duchamp, Etant Donnes. The Only Thing Worse than a Loss...
    (Sachimay)
Morgan Guberman, Hamadryas Baboon. Composition Five. (Pax)

- --Mixing in and out of:--
Zoviet France, A Flock of Rotations. Io! (Charrm)
John Zorn & Bobby Previte, Euclid's Nightmare. #24. (Depth of Field)
Aube, Purification to Numbness. Elementary Particle. (Pure)
Beat Junkies, Return of the DJ Vol. 1. Scratch Monopoly. (Bomb DJs)
Franco DeGrassi & Gianni Lenoci, CD. #3. (ASC)
Briggan Krauss, 300. Christmas Nightmare. (Knitting Factory)
In The Wrong, In The Wrong. A5. (Sunship et al)
Thurston Moore, Please Just Leave Me (My Paul Desmond). (Pure)
DJ Spooky, Riddim Warfare. Peace in Zaire. (Asphodel)
Per Henrik Wallin, Deep in a Dream. I Guess I'll Have to Change My Plans.
    (Dragon)
    ----
Zeena Parkins, No Way Back. Venus Smiles. (Atavistic)
Mark Whitecage 4tet + Joseph Scianni Trio, CIMPosium V. 4. Broadway
    Two-Step. (CIMP)
Misako Kano, Breakthrew. Mao. (Jazz Focus)







- -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 15:31:09 -0500
From: Tom Pratt <[e-mail]>
Subject: Per Henrik Wallin (was Re: Melody Unasked For (fwd))

> Per Henrik Wallin, Deep in a Dream. I Guess I'll Have to Change My Plans.
>         (Dragon)

What do people think of Per Henrik Wallin? I've never heard him but I know
Mats Gustafsson plays on at least one of his records. Could anyone describe
his playing?

                                          -Tom Pratt


- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 18:15:13 -0300
From: Rick Lopez <[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: _Radio_ cover/ Ganelin Trio (unrelated)

Rich Williams wrote:
>
> The Ganelin Trio played on  NBC's Today show
> into 5 minutes of Free improv
> A true golden moment in
> american broadcasting.

Where's the tape? Someone somewhere has to have a tape of this.
I believe it's your responsibility, having mentioned this chestnut, to
find us all access to a tape! ;-)

Let me now,
RL
- --
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp, David S.
Ware, and Reggie Workman discographies--Samuel Beckett Eulogy--Baseball
& the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,  at:
http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k

***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html

- -

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 18:55:28 -0500
From: "David J. Keffer" <[e-mail]>
Subject: recent goodies

Hello Folks on the Zorn-List,
Just thought I would give a couple quick reviews of two recent
releases by musicians frequently mentioned on the list.

Keiji Haino with Boris - "Black: Implication Flooding"
- - Inoxia Records (IXCD0002, 1998)
This is a pretty fine live recording from 1997
featuring Haino with the Japanese guitar/bass/drum
trio, "Boris".  The sound strikes me as a combination of
the improvisational Alan Licht/Haino ensemble on "Gerry Miles"
(Atavistic) and the ponderous density of the long
Naked City recordings like "Leng T'che" and "Grand Guignol",
(which I know some people on the zorn-list don't like but
which are my favorite Naked City tracks.)  Sometimes this
ensemble reaches Fushitsusha-esque density.  Haino plays
five or six different instruments (including voice).  Plus,
the disc has the always delightful Haino song titles like track
8, _Don't be cheated by the oozing silt from both of the
accuser and the accused which is always there, saying "something
have to be done"_.  This is a good one & 70+ minutes long.

Alan Licht and Loren Mazzacane Connors - "Hoffman Estates"
- - Drag City (DC 151, 1998)
Here, these two guitarists are joined by ten other musicians,
including Jim O'Rourke and Ken Vandermark. I have heard
about 10 different records by Mazzacane Connors and I have
seen him play and he has a trademark sound, which is admittedly
a very fine, textured, and pleasing sound, but sometimes
too sparse and too similar from record to record for my
tastes.  So it is nice to hear him in an ensemble which
at times fills in the sparseness of the guitar with horns,
bass, bass clarinet, etc., while at other times managing to
pull Mazzacane Connors into a somewhat non-Mazzacane Connors
mode of playing.  The cd has both the serene tunes we have
come to expect from Mazzacane Connors and some atypical tunes,
bordering on the chaotic.  This too is a good one.

David K.





- -

------------------------------

End of Zorn List Digest V2 #542
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